2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[JojoTheWhale]

Sanheim turned out OK.

Incredible choice of players because my thought was that Makar probably wouldn’t have gotten LHV PP1 time either.

 

[trostol]

Sanheim turned out OK.
I thought culture didn't matter, just talent.

his talent would be squashed here

 

[FLYguy3911]

Wait. Did I see Adam Ginning - AHLer? That can't be.

You can do this in any draft for any team, especially after the first few picks. It is an exercise on futility to do a post-mortem after any draft years down the road.

It really is the biggest waste of time and if your definition of a good pick is that they got the absolute best player at every spot in the draft. With the exception of 2006, you are going to be a very disappointed fan. Even if we consider that the "source" is an attention seeker on Twitter, Sanheim is one of the best picks this team has made in DECADES. And I imagine Pastrnak looks like a much different player in Orange and Black.

If you're shouting on Draft Day that they should have taken Player X over Player Y and Player X turns out to be a stud, by all means feel free to bring it up *cough*Robertson*cough* but anything other than that is oversimplifying the unpredictable nature of drafting 17-18 year old KIDS.

And bringing up picks outside of the first round? The GM is almost never making those picks on his own. Those are the scouts picks. Those guys are still here!

edit: and the elephant in the room is development. No matter how good a prospect is, they still have to go through the mess that is this organization. Michkov isn't even immune to it.

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

I am curious what the reactions here would have been if the Flyers had selected Makar or Miro over unanimous consensus #2 OA Patrick.

I still maintain that Makar would not have become Makar if we drafted him. He would have either started in Allentown or on the third pair with Hagg or something. Not that I believe the scouts were actually banging down the door for him. How much turnover have we seen in the scouting department since 2017? Just last year Danny basically said we didn't need Buium because we already had Drysdale and Andrae. We seriously believe they wanted a small dman out of a lower league committed to a "lesser" school with the second overall pick? And why wouldn't the same argument apply to Makar in 2017 with Ghost already on the team?

"The scouts wanted Heiskanen!" is nothing other than hearsay, but would certainly make more sense than Makar

 

[Beef Invictus]

i see some still believe Makar would be the same if he had been drafted here

I wonder if they ever would have given him PP time?

 

[ValeriKamensky]

It was Clarke, Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher. All played a part in screwing things up.
Throw in Scott (with Barber advising him).
I have no problem, allocate the blame any way you wish.

I dump the lion's share on Holmgren b/c he blew two prime chances to rebuild, once after the Carter/Richards trade and again after he fired Hextall and it was obvious they weren't build to contend.

But I don't buy that the current group is a continuation.
It's obvious that most of you haven't listened to single presser by Torts.
It's also obvious that if the former group still ran things, they would have traded for a veteran center and goaltender before the season.

Instead, this group is adamant about rebuilding, about sticking with the kids, about accumulating assets - the complaint is they're not tanking, but that train left the station in the summer of 2019.

I don't get bent out of shape by Buium or Gauthier, b/c watching them I don't see Makar or Rantanen. So meh. I'm not going to get excited about Perreault until I see him in the pros against NHL players - Rizzo and Brink had great numbers and won championships in Denver, but the NHL is a different animal for smaller slower players.

I don't think the Flyers have a shot at a slam dunk talent, but there are maybe 1 or 2 a draft - but there are a half dozen players each draft who turn out almost as good. The key is to hit on one of these guys every couple years. And fill out your roster with solid players to complement them. I'd be happy with another TK or Briere.

Great strategy to build another Buffalo and Arizona.

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Flyers media calling out the Flyers? What a world!

A complete oxymoron here, however it's sad to say he has the most sense out of all of philly media, kurz, baskow, and now Chris Maher are the most insufferable

 

[ValeriKamensky]

I am curious what the reactions here would have been if the Flyers had selected Makar or Miro over unanimous consensus #2 OA Patrick.

This.
I remember the day before the draft, when I assumed “What if we take Heiskanen over Patrick” (tbh Makar was out of my top-5 - yikes).
And one guy here promised to jump out of the window if that happened

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Holy hindsight Batman

How else do you suggest judging a GM’s draft performance than by seeing how his picks turn out years later?

Certainly you can’t make a final judgment on it the night of the draft.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

i see some still believe Makar would be the same if he had been drafted here

Why wouldn’t he be?

Was Giroux ruined by being drafted by Philly?

Couturier?

Konecny?

I think the worst argument of all for defending the passing of a much better player is, “Well, he wouldn’t be good if he were drafted here, anyway.”

OK, Aesop with your sour grapes excuse.

The reporters who cited sources in Cutter's camp.

Such as? Link please.

 

[ValeriKamensky]

Why wouldn’t he be?

it’s really hard to argue with the fact that Makar is a great D, arguably the best D of his generation. But tbh his metrics w/ and without BigMack are big difference. Obviously every player would get better stats playing with MackKinnon-caliber player, but in terms of scale of Makar personality the difference is too much.
in last many many years we didn’t have player like MackKinnon so fears about Makar’s development in the Flyers organization are real

 

[DancingPanther]

It really is the biggest waste of time and if your definition of a good pick is that they got the absolute best player at every spot in the draft. With the exception of 2006, you are going to be a very disappointed fan.

Exactly. I say this all the time. If an org has a cohesive, winning idea, and their decisions predicate on that paradigm...that's all I ask for. Things that make sense. If you swing and miss on a smaller, toolsy player who just doesn't pan out? So be it. Everything can't hit. This isn't limited to just drafting, either. FA signings, trades, development... anything. Look at the Phillies and pitching. Do you have a plus out pitch? High rpm fastball? Plus velo? Thanks we'll take a flyer. You can have Jeff Hoffman or Kerkering or Jose Ruiz or Gregory Soto or Yunior Marte. But you give yourself, at the very least, a chance

Just make sense under the winning model of the league. The Flyers NEVER do that. They draft poorly with emphasis on non-winning qualities, they concentrate on "fixing" players' weaknesses instead of building their strengths, they don't sell high, they hand out myopic contracts....it's all losing. And not only is it all losing, but it's not cohesive. These guys SUUUUUPER suck at building a roster

 

[DancingPanther]

They broke their promise to sign him and burn an ELC year. This is basic information. I have no idea how you can discuss this situation at length without this basic grasp of facts.

And for what?! That's the thing that gets me the most. They're so stupid that they didn't even realize they should be hoarding every promising young talent possible by any means necessary. The more darts you throw, the points you score. Instead....well this happened. Out of sheer lunacy and arrogance

 

[BernieParent]

How else do you suggest judging a GM’s draft performance than by seeing how his picks turn out years later?

Certainly you can’t make a final judgment on it the night of the draft.

I think it has to be a both-and consideration. Drafting success is largely due to philosophy and the hard work of seeing what these prospects have in their potential. We pretty much all preach the BPA route rather than to draft for roles. Once drafted, success is predicated on development and circumstance, of which health is a huge factor.

Robert Hagg was a good draft pick in the 2nd round considering what he had shown in the junior leagues. Years later into his NHL career, where did his offensive potential and good puck handling go?

 

[Beef Invictus]

It was Clarke, Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher. All played a part in screwing things up.
Throw in Scott (with Barber advising him).
I have no problem, allocate the blame any way you wish.

I dump the lion's share on Holmgren b/c he blew two prime chances to rebuild, once after the Carter/Richards trade and again after he fired Hextall and it was obvious they weren't build to contend.

But I don't buy that the current group is a continuation.
It's obvious that most of you haven't listened to single presser by Torts.
It's also obvious that if the former group still ran things, they would have traded for a veteran center and goaltender before the season.

Instead, this group is adamant about rebuilding, about sticking with the kids, about accumulating assets - the complaint is they're not tanking, but that train left the station in the summer of 2019.

I don't get bent out of shape by Buium or Gauthier, b/c watching them I don't see Makar or Rantanen. So meh. I'm not going to get excited about Perreault until I see him in the pros against NHL players - Rizzo and Brink had great numbers and won championships in Denver, but the NHL is a different animal for smaller slower players.

I don't think the Flyers have a shot at a slam dunk talent, but there are maybe 1 or 2 a draft - but there are a half dozen players each draft who turn out almost as good. The key is to hit on one of these guys every couple years. And fill out your roster with solid players to complement them. I'd be happy with another TK or Briere.

They're literally a continuation. It is all the same people.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why wouldn’t he be?

Was Giroux ruined by being drafted by Philly?

Couturier?

Konecny?

I think the worst argument of all for defending the passing of a much better player is, “Well, he wouldn’t be good if he were drafted here, anyway.”

OK, Aesop with your sour grapes excuse.


Such as? Link please.

Nah. No. You've been linked this dozens of times since it started. Your willful chosen ignorance is yours to fix. I will not spend a second of extra effort doing something you'll contort your brain to ignore like you always do.

The only reason we know why the Flyers not extending him was the problem was because his camp told the media. That's the entire reason. So go read any story, really.

 

[Beef Invictus]

it’s really hard to argue with the fact that Makar is a great D, arguably the best D of his generation. But tbh his metrics w/ and without BigMack are big difference. Obviously every player would get better stats playing with MackKinnon-caliber player, but in terms of scale of Makar personality the difference is too much.
in last many many years we didn’t have player like MackKinnon so fears about Makar’s development in the Flyers organization are real

They had a fantastic PP player in Sanheim and vigorously refused to ever develop his PP game. Can't give skilled players anything and all that jazz.

There's zero reason to believe they'd see his strengths as things to grow, rather than focus on weaknesses and scream at him to fix them. Probably have him slam on 50 pounds of muscle.

 

[ybnvs]

He informed the Flyers that he did not want to sign with them after the WHC in May of '23 which lines up with the reported idea that he expected to be signed in March when his season concluded which was when there was turnover in the Flyers' front office.

My memory isn't the best, but I seem to recall some discussion surrounding Gauthier's decision to not sign with Philly was partially due to the inexperience of the new interim GM taking over when Fletcher was fired and he wasn't keen on the incompetency the front office displayed.

I might be totally off-base, and if so I apologize.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I am absolutely not jumping into the larger discussion here, but there seems to be a minor disconnect or misunderstanding I'm seeing pop up.

The reasonable talking point isn't that Makar would have been a poor NHLer. He's too talented for that. It's that he wouldn't be as close to maximized. Still good. Just not as.

We can't ignore everything that happens after the draft. These careers aren't on rails. Some teams/situations turn Phil Myers into a #3. Some others can get nothing from Nick Seeler. It's not exclusive to the Flyers. It's human nature.

 

[Curufinwe]

Friedman: "I think he believed he was gonna join the team at the end of the season. And, I think, look, can I say 100% there was a promise made? No, I can't say that. But what I can say is that at least the player believed there was... I dunno, I don't want to speak for Gauthier, whether he felt it was a promise or an indication, whatever the case.

And that year was so bad in Philadelphia that Jones and Briere made a decision that they weren't going to bring him in to the locker room. They said their locker room was a really tough place, and they offered him to go to the American Hockey League and finish that year and then join the Flyers the next year, and it was just never the same after that point."

 

[MJL66]

It was Clarke, Holmgren, Hextall and Fletcher. All played a part in screwing things up.
Throw in Scott (with Barber advising him).
I have no problem, allocate the blame any way you wish.

I dump the lion's share on Holmgren b/c he blew two prime chances to rebuild, once after the Carter/Richards trade and again after he fired Hextall and it was obvious they weren't build to contend.

But I don't buy that the current group is a continuation.
It's obvious that most of you haven't listened to single presser by Torts.
It's also obvious that if the former group still ran things, they would have traded for a veteran center and goaltender before the season.

Instead, this group is adamant about rebuilding, about sticking with the kids, about accumulating assets - the complaint is they're not tanking, but that train left the station in the summer of 2019.

I don't get bent out of shape by Buium or Gauthier, b/c watching them I don't see Makar or Rantanen. So meh. I'm not going to get excited about Perreault until I see him in the pros against NHL players - Rizzo and Brink had great numbers and won championships in Denver, but the NHL is a different animal for smaller slower players.

I don't think the Flyers have a shot at a slam dunk talent, but there are maybe 1 or 2 a draft - but there are a half dozen players each draft who turn out almost as good. The key is to hit on one of these guys every couple years. And fill out your roster with solid players to complement them. I'd be happy with another TK or Briere.

Nobody is going to give anyone any credibility who posts that its obvious that most of you haven't listened to a single presser by Torts. Anyone who doesn't realize by now that Tortorella is a manipulator, is disengenous and a BS artist is extremely naive. Again, Briere doesn't have the ammo or the cap space to trade for a veteran center or a goaltender. It's been well reported that Briere has been very active on the phone since he was hired. A deal hasn't been made yet because they either can't or haven't found one they like. I assure you that they're trying as they sit there among the teams like Buffalo and Anaheim that they claim they don't want to be like. Your comments concerning Buium and Gauthier are simply unintelligent. It's very simple. A prospect base of Michkov, Gauthier and Buium is much better than Michkov, Drysdale and Luchanko. YOu respond with meh. LOL

 

[Curufinwe]

This.
I remember the day before the draft, when I assumed “What if we take Heiskanen over Patrick” (tbh Makar was out of my top-5 - yikes).
And one guy here promised to jump out of the window if that happened

Most people here didn't like the idea of trading the #2 pick for MacKinnon.

 

[TCTC]

Most people here didn't like the idea of trading the #2 pick for MacKinnon.

I don't think anyone could've predicted MacKinnon turning into a 100 point player in 2017 after being a 50 point player for 4 years. He pretty much exploded over night.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The brain damage was unforseeable as well. And always remember TK plummetting because of concussion concerns only for that to not be an issue in the end; I think one major ranking had him at 10. There was some certainty that Boston was sure to take him


It's funny to me how the people who insist I'm unreasonable and unfair to the Flyers are the ones who constantly slam them for a pick 8 years ago that went wrong because they weren't able to see the future, while I give them a pass for that and several other moves where the process was fine. Who is actually being unreasonable?

 

[Curufinwe]

Crazy how the Flyers lost a top prospect because they felt their locker room was too terrible to expose him to it. And now they self proclaim they have the best locker room in the league.

One year Torts was the coach and they finished 26th. This year Torts is the coach and they are 26th. But the locker room went from 32nd to 1st!