2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

[deadhead]

They gave up Saad + Anton Forsberg + future 5th for Panarin + Motte + 6th. Idiot GM.

For two years of Panarin, knowing he would walk.
Which is why he was cheap.

Year before they added him, 108 point team. 97 and 98 point team with him.
That's because Bob was the key to that team.
Got to the second round when Bob played well.
(GA - xGA)/60:
2016-17: 5g +0.31 regular season -0.59
2017-18: 6g +0.46 regular season -0.23
2018-19: 10g +0.09 regular season +0.10
go figure.

Nor was Panarin's offense suppressed, 63 and 69 ES points in CBJ, averaged 68 ES points first four seasons in NY with more skilled offensive players around him, which is also why his PP production jumped.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

For two years of Panarin, knowing he would walk.
Which is why he was cheap.

Year before they added him, 108 point team. 97 and 98 point team with him.
That's because Bob was the key to that team.
Got to the second round when Bob played well.
(GA - xGA)/60:
2016-17: 5g +0.31 regular season -0.59
2017-18: 6g +0.46 regular season -0.23
2018-19: 10g +0.09 regular season +0.10
go figure.

Nor was Panarin's offense suppressed, 63 and 69 ES points in CBJ, averaged 68 ES points first four seasons in NY with more skilled offensive players around him, which is also why his PP production jumped.

For two years of Panarin

two years

Look, I love me some Brandon Saad. Wonderful complimentary player. But this is f***ing nuts. I'm just going back to "No."

 

[Beef Invictus]

Well, I'd say everything Torts said about Hartnell is what Flyer fans (and media) said about him for years.

I think he's in a small category of smart but limited veterans with good skills but bad skates later in his career.
2007-08 and 2008-09 he had bad metrics.
After that, his metrics, especially defensive metrics, improved.
He went from a defensive liability to middle of the pack.
Did he get smarter? Learn his limitations? Or did HCs learn to shelter him? Or both?

Not any Flyers fans who knew what they were watching were saying he was defensively bad. The dude played as the chief defensive forward on his line for several years under Lavi. Hell, when he was on Briere's line he went beyond the initial "left wing gets back first" rotation and stayed back, taking over center defensive duties from him. And he was competent at it.

Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.

 

[deadhead]

Look, I love me some Brandon Saad. Wonderful complimentary player. But this is f***ing nuts. I'm just going back to "No."

I don't think it hurt to add Panarin, but I'm not sure how much it helped either.
Teams are funny, sometimes you can add talent and hurt chemistry (remember AR's "dream team?").
They added a bunch of talent, got past TB and lost in the 2nd rd, then all the talent left.

It's obvious what drove CBJ was Bob b/c he started 60+ games a year.
But he always sucked in the playoffs, in Philly, in CBJ, even his first two tries in FLA, then:

2021-22: 10g -0.36
2022-23: 19g -0.82
2023-24: 24g -0.14

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't think it hurt to add Panarin, but I'm not sure how much it helped either.
Teams are funny, sometimes you can add talent and hurt chemistry (remember AR's "dream team?").
They added a bunch of talent, got past TB and lost in the 2nd rd, then all the talent left.

It's obvious what drove CBJ was Bob b/c he started 60+ games a year.
But he always sucked in the playoffs, in Philly, in CBJ, even his first two tries in FLA, then:

2021-22: 10g -0.36
2022-23: 19g -0.82
2023-24: 24g -0.14

Yes, many of these teams swing on Goaltending. Completely agreed.

But the one thing I would say is that if you're an irrelevant franchise stuck in mediocrity, taking a chance on a true star is a different animal. They didn't follow it up well at all. But Panarin himself did exactly what they hoped. Given the price, that's a trade CBJ should take 100/100 times. And then maybe fire the GM.

 

[deadhead]

Yes, many of these teams swing on Goaltending. Completely agreed.

But the one thing I would say is that if you're an irrelevant franchise stuck in mediocrity, taking a chance on a true star is a different animal. They didn't follow it up well at all. But Panarin himself did exactly what they hoped. Given the price, that's a trade CBJ should take 100/100 times. And then maybe fire the GM.

Pretty much. But timing matters.
Torts had just turned the team around, they had a group of young forwards, including Karlsson.

Then the GM basically threw all his chips in the middle of the table for a two year run.
But that depended on a goalie who had never shown he could carry a team in the playoffs.
Akin to drawing to an inside straight.

Zito did the same at one TDL, trading (2) 1sts, 3rd, 4th and Tippett to rent Giroux and Chariot, only to exit the first round. The difference was both a chastised Zito who never did that again, and a hot Bob.
No TDL trade in 2023, (2) 3rd rd picks for Tarasenko, 5th for Okposo at 2024 TDL

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Pretty much. But timing matters.
Torts had just turned the team around, they had a group of young forwards, including Karlsson.

Then the GM basically threw all his chips in the middle of the table for a two year run.
But that depended on a goalie who had never shown he could carry a team in the playoffs.
Akin to drawing to an inside straight.

Zito did the same at one TDL, trading (2) 1sts, 3rd, 4th and Tippett to rent Giroux and Chariot, only to exit the first round. The difference was both a chastised Zito who never did that again, and a hot Bob.
No TDL trade in 2023, (2) 3rd rd picks for Tarasenko, 5th for Okposo at 2024 TDL

See, here we go again. We just agreed that everything hinged on Bobrovsky. Now Tortorella turned them around. I'm not agreeing to that.

 

[renberg]

He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.

Or anyone in management which is another reason to jettison him out of here in a year.

 

[Beef Invictus]

See, here we go again. We just agreed that everything hinged on Bobrovsky. Now Tortorella turned them around. I'm not agreeing to that.

Are you saying that having a Vezina goalie is helpful?

True or false

 

[deadhead]

See, here we go again. We just agreed that everything hinged on Bobrovsky. Now Tortorella turned them around. I'm not agreeing to that.

2014-15: xGF 47.27% (25), HDCF 50.04%, goalie (all) +0.12
2015-16: xGF 51.04% (11), HDCF 53.30% goalie (all) +0.03 [Torts took over after 7 games]
2016-17: xGF 51.23% (12), HDCF 51.29% goalie (all) -0.43
2017-18: xGF 52.15% (10), HDCF 50.43% goalie (all) +0.46
2018-19: xGF 51.40% (11), HDCF 51.56% goalie (all) +0.22

The 108 point season was a Bob anomaly, the next season was the opposite.
But it's clear Torts turned this team around

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.

This time a billion. I don't know why this isn't talked about more. The guy admitted he was wrong, and said, F it, I'm going with my gut. That's who TORTS is.

I have no problem giving him credit for being RaRaRa, fire and brimstone guy who squeezes the most out of mediocre rosters. I think he has that reputation for a reason. Cool.

This guy also makes in game decisions, adjustments (or not), player deployment, etc....and he's actively telling you he doesn't care what "the tape" (or stats) says, he's going to go with his gut. His gut that he just told you was wrong.

A cat like that? They don't change their stripes.

 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Tortorella will not finish his contract as head coach. This is wearing on him to the point he looks resigned. He got most of his guys that he wanted. It's still not working and he looks exasperated. I really didn't think he lasts much longer past the trade deadline.

 

[Lord Defect]

Not any Flyers fans who knew what they were watching were saying he was defensively bad. The dude played as the chief defensive forward on his line for several years under Lavi. Hell, when he was on Briere's line he went beyond the initial "left wing gets back first" rotation and stayed back, taking over center defensive duties from him. And he was competent at it.

Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.

Hartnell down

 

[Chicken N Raffls]

The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Tortorella will not finish his contract as head coach. This is wearing on him to the point he looks resigned. He got most of his guys that he wanted. It's still not working and he looks exasperated. I really didn't think he lasts much longer past the trade deadline.

Nice reverse jinx. Fingers crossed my man.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Tortorella will not finish his contract as head coach. This is wearing on him to the point he looks resigned. He got most of his guys that he wanted. It's still not working and he looks exasperated. I really didn't think he lasts much longer past the trade deadline.

Can we shorten that time frame to Christmas break please

 

[ybnvs]

Hartnell down

Back then I attended a lot of games and used to love screaming, "Get off the ice, Hartnell!" for various reasons, of course.

 

[BillDineen]

Looking ahead, I could see a situation where if Rantanen is looking to go to UFA, they jump the gun on the rebuild and trade Colorado's first back for his rights after the playoffs. It would be very Flyers

 

[Kelmitchell2]

Looking ahead, I could see a situation where if Rantanen is looking to go to UFA, they jump the gun on the rebuild and trade Colorado's first back for his rights after the playoffs. It would be very Flyers

And then he walks anyways after we give up the first, now that would be very flyers

 

[deadhead]

Why would the Flyers want Rantanen? He's not a center.
If they wanted to win now, they'd trade for Nelson before the TDL if Isles are out of it.
But I'll bet even if they're in the playoff race, Briere will be a seller, just like last season.
They have no illusions that this team is a SC contender or on the verge of becoming one.