2024-25 Roster Thread #2: Midseasonnar

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,123
22,258
They gave up Saad + Anton Forsberg + future 5th for Panarin + Motte + 6th. Idiot GM. :laugh:
For two years of Panarin, knowing he would walk.
Which is why he was cheap.

Year before they added him, 108 point team. 97 and 98 point team with him.
That's because Bob was the key to that team.
Got to the second round when Bob played well.
(GA - xGA)/60:
2016-17: 5g +0.31 regular season -0.59
2017-18: 6g +0.46 regular season -0.23
2018-19: 10g +0.09 regular season +0.10
go figure.

Nor was Panarin's offense suppressed, 63 and 69 ES points in CBJ, averaged 68 ES points first four seasons in NY with more skilled offensive players around him, which is also why his PP production jumped.
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
35,997
111,216
For two years of Panarin, knowing he would walk.
Which is why he was cheap.

Year before they added him, 108 point team. 97 and 98 point team with him.
That's because Bob was the key to that team.
Got to the second round when Bob played well.
(GA - xGA)/60:
2016-17: 5g +0.31 regular season -0.59
2017-18: 6g +0.46 regular season -0.23
2018-19: 10g +0.09 regular season +0.10
go figure.

Nor was Panarin's offense suppressed, 63 and 69 ES points in CBJ, averaged 68 ES points first four seasons in NY with more skilled offensive players around him, which is also why his PP production jumped.

For two years of Panarin

two years

Look, I love me some Brandon Saad. Wonderful complimentary player. But this is f***ing nuts. I'm just going back to "No."
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
130,561
171,385
Armored Train
Well, I'd say everything Torts said about Hartnell is what Flyer fans (and media) said about him for years.

I think he's in a small category of smart but limited veterans with good skills but bad skates later in his career.
2007-08 and 2008-09 he had bad metrics.
After that, his metrics, especially defensive metrics, improved.
He went from a defensive liability to middle of the pack.
Did he get smarter? Learn his limitations? Or did HCs learn to shelter him? Or both?


Not any Flyers fans who knew what they were watching were saying he was defensively bad. The dude played as the chief defensive forward on his line for several years under Lavi. Hell, when he was on Briere's line he went beyond the initial "left wing gets back first" rotation and stayed back, taking over center defensive duties from him. And he was competent at it.

Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,123
22,258
Look, I love me some Brandon Saad. Wonderful complimentary player. But this is f***ing nuts. I'm just going back to "No."
I don't think it hurt to add Panarin, but I'm not sure how much it helped either.
Teams are funny, sometimes you can add talent and hurt chemistry (remember AR's "dream team?").
They added a bunch of talent, got past TB and lost in the 2nd rd, then all the talent left.

It's obvious what drove CBJ was Bob b/c he started 60+ games a year.
But he always sucked in the playoffs, in Philly, in CBJ, even his first two tries in FLA, then:

2021-22: 10g -0.36
2022-23: 19g -0.82
2023-24: 24g -0.14
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
35,997
111,216
I don't think it hurt to add Panarin, but I'm not sure how much it helped either.
Teams are funny, sometimes you can add talent and hurt chemistry (remember AR's "dream team?").
They added a bunch of talent, got past TB and lost in the 2nd rd, then all the talent left.

It's obvious what drove CBJ was Bob b/c he started 60+ games a year.
But he always sucked in the playoffs, in Philly, in CBJ, even his first two tries in FLA, then:

2021-22: 10g -0.36
2022-23: 19g -0.82
2023-24: 24g -0.14

Yes, many of these teams swing on Goaltending. Completely agreed.

But the one thing I would say is that if you're an irrelevant franchise stuck in mediocrity, taking a chance on a true star is a different animal. They didn't follow it up well at all. But Panarin himself did exactly what they hoped. Given the price, that's a trade CBJ should take 100/100 times. And then maybe fire the GM. :laugh:
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,123
22,258
Yes, many of these teams swing on Goaltending. Completely agreed.

But the one thing I would say is that if you're an irrelevant franchise stuck in mediocrity, taking a chance on a true star is a different animal. They didn't follow it up well at all. But Panarin himself did exactly what they hoped. Given the price, that's a trade CBJ should take 100/100 times. And then maybe fire the GM. :laugh:
Pretty much. But timing matters.
Torts had just turned the team around, they had a group of young forwards, including Karlsson.

Then the GM basically threw all his chips in the middle of the table for a two year run.
But that depended on a goalie who had never shown he could carry a team in the playoffs.
Akin to drawing to an inside straight.

Zito did the same at one TDL, trading (2) 1sts, 3rd, 4th and Tippett to rent Giroux and Chariot, only to exit the first round. The difference was both a chastised Zito who never did that again, and a hot Bob.
No TDL trade in 2023, (2) 3rd rd picks for Tarasenko, 5th for Okposo at 2024 TDL
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
35,997
111,216
Pretty much. But timing matters.
Torts had just turned the team around, they had a group of young forwards, including Karlsson.

Then the GM basically threw all his chips in the middle of the table for a two year run.
But that depended on a goalie who had never shown he could carry a team in the playoffs.
Akin to drawing to an inside straight.

Zito did the same at one TDL, trading (2) 1sts, 3rd, 4th and Tippett to rent Giroux and Chariot, only to exit the first round. The difference was both a chastised Zito who never did that again, and a hot Bob.
No TDL trade in 2023, (2) 3rd rd picks for Tarasenko, 5th for Okposo at 2024 TDL

See, here we go again. We just agreed that everything hinged on Bobrovsky. Now Tortorella turned them around. I'm not agreeing to that.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
51,123
22,258
See, here we go again. We just agreed that everything hinged on Bobrovsky. Now Tortorella turned them around. I'm not agreeing to that.
2014-15: xGF 47.27% (25), HDCF 50.04%, goalie (all) +0.12
2015-16: xGF 51.04% (11), HDCF 53.30% goalie (all) +0.03 [Torts took over after 7 games]
2016-17: xGF 51.23% (12), HDCF 51.29% goalie (all) -0.43
2017-18: xGF 52.15% (10), HDCF 50.43% goalie (all) +0.46
2018-19: xGF 51.40% (11), HDCF 51.56% goalie (all) +0.22

The 108 point season was a Bob anomaly, the next season was the opposite.
But it's clear Torts turned this team around
 

Chicken N Raffls

Here for the chaos and lolz
Nov 7, 2022
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Douglassville
Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.
This time a billion. I don't know why this isn't talked about more. The guy admitted he was wrong, and said, F it, I'm going with my gut. That's who TORTS is.

I have no problem giving him credit for being RaRaRa, fire and brimstone guy who squeezes the most out of mediocre rosters. I think he has that reputation for a reason. Cool.

This guy also makes in game decisions, adjustments (or not), player deployment, etc....and he's actively telling you he doesn't care what "the tape" (or stats) says, he's going to go with his gut. His gut that he just told you was wrong.

A cat like that? They don't change their stripes.
 

BobbyClarkeFan16

Registered User
Nov 29, 2005
10,811
3,954
Goderich, Ontario
The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Tortorella will not finish his contract as head coach. This is wearing on him to the point he looks resigned. He got most of his guys that he wanted. It's still not working and he looks exasperated. I really didn't think he lasts much longer past the trade deadline.
 
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Lord Defect

Secretary of Blowtorching
Nov 13, 2013
18,924
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Not any Flyers fans who knew what they were watching were saying he was defensively bad. The dude played as the chief defensive forward on his line for several years under Lavi. Hell, when he was on Briere's line he went beyond the initial "left wing gets back first" rotation and stayed back, taking over center defensive duties from him. And he was competent at it.

Tortorella's assessment of Hartnell as a defensive mess was never correct. He sucks at player evaluation, which is a very big problem for a coach.
Hartnell down
 
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Chicken N Raffls

Here for the chaos and lolz
Nov 7, 2022
3,823
7,975
Douglassville
The more I watch, the more I'm convinced that Tortorella will not finish his contract as head coach. This is wearing on him to the point he looks resigned. He got most of his guys that he wanted. It's still not working and he looks exasperated. I really didn't think he lasts much longer past the trade deadline.
Nice reverse jinx. Fingers crossed my man.
 

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