2024-25 Roster Thread #1: The Beginninging

[Adtar02]

I just want coaches that can see what they have and put the players in the best spots. Instead I see a group that says here is how you have to play. Less talented players excel in in this. More talented get held back. The team has 4-5 smart small puck players that aren’t allowed to play that way. These are possession positive type players. They rarely get to play together. Instead they play with low iq players. Some low iq are talented and the smart players can help them. But ours seem to be shoot first possession killers.

 

[ponder719]

I will laugh so hard hard if they trade the Edmonton 1st for a 2026. It will be a pick more than 4 years after the trade at that point.

Part of me wants to a) capitalize on Sanheim developing into the top pair guy we all hoped he could be and b) lock in some assets, and offer Sanheim to Edmonton for Bouchard, Savoie, Skinner (or similar) for cap ballast and Edmonton's 26 #1 (which would lock in us getting this year's #1 unprotected). Sanheim would be a big upgrade to Edmonton's blue line long term and help them go all in for the Cup this year, they'd get rid of the Bouchard contract negotiation headache, and we'd get some locked in picks and young talent.

Now, would EDM go for it? Not a goddamned clue, but I want them to at least look into leveraging some high level assets to get people who fit MM's timeline better.

 

[Adam Warlock]

I don't think Frost is poor development, he improved substantially on defense.
He had the best scoring wings on the team last season and regressed offensively.
His top speed is below NHL average so far this season.

I think he gets dinged easily, and they don't report those injuries - last year he had a slow start, including slow top speed, then improved as the season went along - which suggests he got healthier.

He may simply be one of those guys who only plays well in spurts, when he's close to 100% physically, because his game is predicated on quickness and speed.

When you prioritize an offensive players defense before letting his offense translate to the NHL level... that is poor development. The Flyers make this mistake again and again.

 

[deadhead]

When you prioritize an offensive players defense before letting his offense translate to the NHL level... that is poor development. The Flyers make this mistake again and again.

No one asked Frost to become a Selke candidate.

Defensive fundamentals don't keep you from being aggressive in the O-zone, it's just a matter of taking care of details, understand the cycle in the O-zone, back check, positioning your body and stick, know your responsibilities, etc.

If that keeps you from being a good offensive player, then you're probably not a good offensive player in the first place.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Part of me wants to a) capitalize on Sanheim developing into the top pair guy we all hoped he could be and b) lock in some assets, and offer Sanheim to Edmonton for Bouchard, Savoie, Skinner (or similar) for cap ballast and Edmonton's 26 #1 (which would lock in us getting this year's #1 unprotected). Sanheim would be a big upgrade to Edmonton's blue line long term and help them go all in for the Cup this year, they'd get rid of the Bouchard contract negotiation headache, and we'd get some locked in picks and young talent.

Now, would EDM go for it? Not a goddamned clue, but I want them to at least look into leveraging some high level assets to get people who fit MM's timeline better.

Oilers want to add to Bouchard, not subtract. Mabe they then move him after the season.

You are ok paying the contract Bouchard is looking for? I also do not think Sanheim has that type of value.

A smart organization looks to move Saheim. Therefor he will be here for many years.

Outside of those trades, he surrounded those players with nothingness. Total inability to build depth, because the bottom of the roster wasn't a place where you put talent, it was where you put grinders. Same attitude we see now. Deliberately limiting roster potential in pursuit of roles. Holmgren is the first and only GM in 40 years to break that trend. From Clarke onwards, it's been firmly entrenched otherwise. Core Flyers Value. That's not coming from out of the ether.

You said he favored grinders over skill. He didn't and that is false.

 

[FlyerNutter]

No one asked Frost to become a Selke candidate.

Defensive fundamentals don't keep you from being aggressive in the O-zone, it's just a matter of taking care of details, understand the cycle in the O-zone, back check, positioning your body and stick, know your responsibilities, etc.

If that keeps you from being a good offensive player, then you're probably not a good offensive player in the first place.

TK, Sanheim, and Couturier aside.

Who are success stories the Flyers have “developed”?

Say in the last… decade or so.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Go look at his trade transactions. Tells a different story. Way more skill than grinders. In fact not even close. At least his 2nd term as GM.

Bob Clarke acquired a ton of skill players.

Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

Bob Clarke acquired a ton of skill players.

Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.

Just pure Clarke hate I suppose. He was not perfect by any means. Never addressing a few issues cost them at least 1 cup.

Another thing Clake did that goes under the radar was acquire draft picks.

TK, Sanheim, and Couturier aside.

Who are success stories the Flyers have “developed”?

Say in the last… decade or so.

Cates, Sam, Seeler (even though not drafted). Do you include Tippet? Zamula?

 

[Appleyard]

Structurally they are a mess at 5v5 vs last year.

Last night was a great example of that.

1st goal... they back in using 1-1-3 in NZ, which they never did last year, then they set up early and are playing man and TK lost discipline and went to collapse along the wall way too early. Kind of an individual mistake tbf, but I dont know why they were playing 1-1-3 in that game situation and vs a group like that. Maybe someone made an individual decision but it made the transition so freaking easy.


Other teams are adapting and countering Flyers strongside exit strategy by playing narrower 1-2-2's vs them in NZ... and to adapt to that Flyers have to change their exit strategy slightly to take advantage of more weak-side ice...

but they are less aggressive in the DZ, getting caught between man and zone way too often, and also at times getting into 1-1-3 in the NZ when they have been pretty rigid with their 1-2-2 and being aggressive the last few years...

it is easy to see why less odd man rushes and worse transition.

 

[FlyerNutter]

 

[renberg]

Structurally they are a mess at 5v5 vs last year.

Last night was a great example of that.

1st goal... they back in using 1-1-3 in NZ, which they never did last year, then they set up early and are playing man and TK lost discipline and went to collapse along the wall way too early. Kind of an individual mistake tbf, but I dont know why they were playing 1-1-3 in that game situation and vs a group like that. Maybe someone made an individual decision but it made the transition so freaking easy.


Other teams are adapting and countering Flyers strongside exit strategy by playing narrower 1-2-2's vs them in NZ... and to adapt to that Flyers have to change their exit strategy slightly to take advantage of more weak-side ice...

but they are less aggressive in the DZ, getting caught between man and zone way too often, and also at times getting into 1-1-3 in the NZ when they have been pretty rigid with their 1-2-2 and being aggressive the last few years...

it is easy to see why less odd man rushes and worse transition.

Spot on analysis. It comes down to coaching for the modern era. Other clubs have it and the Flyers don't. The Flyers are playing checkers and the good clubs are playing chess. There is talent on the Flyers' roster but it isn't being used very well. Shaw seems to get a lot out of the defense but Rocky and Tortorella don't know how to run schemes that succeed anywhere on the ice.

 

[deadhead]

It's also personnel. You can draw up any scheme on a blackboard (or iPad) but players have to execute. Last night the defense was both jumbled and limited, no one who could skate like York, Andrae and Drysdale, so Sanheim was the only D-man who could carry through the N-zone. Grans showed flashes, but was also lost at times.

 

[VladDrag]

No one asked Frost to become a Selke candidate.

Defensive fundamentals don't keep you from being aggressive in the O-zone, it's just a matter of taking care of details, understand the cycle in the O-zone, back check, positioning your body and stick, know your responsibilities, etc.

If that keeps you from being a good offensive player, then you're probably not a good offensive player in the first place.

I know you keep saying this, and I know Jojo has provided evidence to refute this to you, but that's just not what the data says. Players that tend to take steps forward offensively do it at an expense of their defensive impact.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Just pure Clarke hate I suppose. He was not perfect by any means. Never addressing a few issues cost them at least 1 cup.

No, he sure wasn't perfect, but he was always trying to acquire talent.

His teams tended to be loaded with guys who were first round picks.

 

[freakydallas13]

It's also personnel. You can draw up any scheme on a blackboard (or iPad) but players have to execute. Last night the defense was both jumbled and limited, no one who could skate like York, Andrae and Drysdale, so Sanheim was the only D-man who could carry through the N-zone. Grans showed flashes, but was also lost at times.

You're allowed to just admit that coaching is a problem. Encouraged, in fact.

You don't have to deflect blame from them to the players in every single instance.

No, he sure wasn't perfect, but he was always trying to acquire talent.

This is kind of a nothing burger. Trying to acquire talent, every GM tries to acquire talent. What GM shows up to the office and says to themselves "there is talent out there but I don't want it"?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This is kind of a nothing burger. Trying to acquire talent, every GM tries to acquire talent. What GM shows up to the office and says to themselves "there is talent out there but I don't want it"?

This was part of a discussion related to the claim that Bob Clarke "lusted after grinding over skill." Which isn't true.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Spot on analysis. It comes down to coaching for the modern era. Other clubs have it and the Flyers don't. The Flyers are playing checkers and the good clubs are playing chess. There is talent on the Flyers' roster but it isn't being used very well. Shaw seems to get a lot out of the defense but Rocky and Tortorella don't know how to run schemes that succeed anywhere on the ice.

Don't know if this was meant as a double entendre but it is a good one. The Flyers do mostly play checkers and grinders

 

[1865]

I hope we claim Kapanen. It'd just be nice to remember the better times.

 

[freakydallas13]

This was part of a discussion related to the claim that Bob Clarke "lusted after grinding over skill." Which isn't true.

I get that, and the point you are replying to is probably being exaggerated, but "lusted after grinding over skill" doesn't mean he wasn't trying to acquire talent per se. It was just players who could be talented at grinding, lol

 

[deadhead]

Don't know if this was meant as a double entendre but it is a good one. The Flyers do mostly play checkers and grinders

So do most teams. I mean the median 3rd line forward last year scored 23 ES points.
That basically means most teams have at least five players scoring 20 or less points at ES.
If you can put together three solid lines that can score you're ahead of the game.

 

[BiggE]

If they have 3 picks in the teens, and 3 more picks between 33-44, they're fine.
Heck, if Edmonton and Colorado squeeze into the POs but get knocked out in the 1st or 2nd rd, that'll be fine too.

Gives you the option to move up and down the draft, trade into 2026 or package players/picks in a trade for a young player.

They don't need to hit on all six picks, end up with 3 solid starters and it's a fine draft.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The Flyers once got mad at Frost for scoring too much and insisted that he needs to be more defensive, so clearly they think part of defense involves trading away offense.

Oilers want to add to Bouchard, not subtract. Mabe they then move him after the season.

You are ok paying the contract Bouchard is looking for? I also do not think Sanheim has that type of value.

A smart organization looks to move Saheim. Therefor he will be here for many years.


You said he favored grinders over skill. He didn't and that is false.

It is absolutely factual that he deliberately aimed for grinders to fill out rosters and didn't try for more skill. This has never been a man who accepted that you can score with lines 3 and 4.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bob Clarke acquired a ton of skill players.

Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.

Bob Clarke completely failed to build depth around those skill players because he insisted on having grinders, rather than maximizing skill. Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.


Seriously, nobody remembers prior to 2024? We had a thing called the Lindros Era, wherein Clarke totally failed to build around the guy.

 

[BiggE]

Bob Clarke completely failed to build depth around those skill players because he insisted on having grinders, rather than maximizing skill. Bizarre for anyone to claim or imply otherwise.


Seriously, nobody remembers prior to 2024? We had a thing called the Lindros Era, wherein Clarke totally failed to build around the guy.

I still have nightmares of Beezer over Cujo

 

[Curufinwe]

I still have nightmares of Beezer over Cujo

Such an obviously wrong decision, ugh