2024-25 NTDP U17 Team Selection

[Pavel Buchnevich]

They key difference here being Hurlbert would still represent the USA despite playing in Canada. The NTDP is virtually the only program in the world where a two-year commitment to said team locks the player into playing for that country internationally (pretty much for life). In this case, you've got guys like Beuker and William Moore captaining Team Ontario or Team Saskatchewan one month, but wearing a USA jersey the next.

I have no problem with guys like Celebrini, Fantilli and Power playing in the the USA but representing Canada, as I would still get to see them play for Canada internationally at future events.

I’ll also say if a Canadian NTDP was created and Hurlbert had a Canadian mother, I’d want him to represent the country he feels the most allegiance to.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Exactly. And even though both of their parents are from the States, the Hughes Brothers became what they are because they grew up in the GTA and played in the GTHL. Only Luke played as much or more minor hockey in the States. There's a decent chance they don't become what they've become without living in Canada.


You're not wrong, but apples to oranges with that comparison. You've shifted the argument from talking about minor hockey & international representation to pro hockey & its markets, which are different conversations.

So you’re saying they needed Toronto? Their mother was a great player and their father works in hockey. I think they have both the family bloodlines for playing hockey and a family that is involved in the game. They would’ve became what they are anywhere in USA or Canada.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Nah I just think it's another example of people taking advantage of a loophole. EJ Emery is as Canadian as one could be, growing up and playing minor hockey entirely in British Columbia, but because his dad is from the States, he's allowed to play for the NTDP... I find it to be odd and if I were Canadian, I'd likely be even more pissed.

This also I just don’t get.

Why is it for you (or me) to decide what country he feels the most allegiance to?

If he felt 100% Canadian and it was a goal of his to play in a World Juniors or Olympics for Canada he didn’t have to make the decision he did. He did so because he wants to represent the USA. At that point I think we should stop questioning a player’s choice.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

This also I just don’t get.

Why is it for you (or me) to decide what country he feels the most allegiance to?

If he felt 100% Canadian and it was a goal of his to play in a World Juniors or Olympics for Canada he didn’t have to make the decision he did. He did so because he wants to represent the USA. At that point I think we should stop questioning a player’s choice.

He's using the NTDP for developmental advantage purposes. Which I don't blame him for. I'm blaming the loophole, not the player.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He's using the NTDP for developmental advantage purposes. Which I don't blame him for. I'm blaming the loophole, not the player.

But you don’t know that. You suspect that.

There’s certainly a chance that he has a close connection to the states. He has a parent that is American. The idea that a player should only play for the country they play minor hockey in makes no sense to me.

People in this thread are acting like it costs hundreds of thousands for one kid to come through the development system of a country. It costs a minuscule amount and often times their parents are paying large sums to the program to allow for their place on the team.

 

[William H Bonney]

Without fail, every year the NTDP selection thread devolves into some US vs Canada nonsense. Can we cut it out and get back to talking about the players themselves?

An HF special. Everything must be about Canada at the end of the day.

 

[William H Bonney]

I'm supportive of the IIHF making representation rules stricter. Would that hurt USAH the most? Yes. Is that an indictment of USAH? No. Would it change USAH? Yes. It's the reality of having a very diverse country with a lot of immigration that naturally will have an outsized impact on sports like hockey that have a niche cultural role in said country. I don't see most Canadians on this site doing anything but celebrating the growth of their soccer and basketball programs even though they are heavily benefitting from the exact same realities.

But my word is it obnoxious to see people think they should have any say as to what nationality, identity, etc. a person - whom they don't know at all - should identify with. It's one thing to advocate for stricter IIHF player eligibility rules. It's another to bloviate about American citizens not being Americans and thinking you should have any say in what nation they most identify with or want to represent because of your jingoism or misguided belief that if someone spends a lot of time in a country they inherently most identify with that country.

Are some duals mercenaries that just want to take advantage of the NTDP? Yes. Are some duals authentically passionate about representing US over their other options because they identify as American? Yes. Are there a host of other reasons why duals make their decisions in the way they do? Yes. Would USAH fans get annoyed if we started losing more duals than we do now? Yes.

But man does the jingoism on this site rot the ways people approach everything they evaluate.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He's using the NTDP for developmental advantage purposes. Which I don't blame him for. I'm blaming the loophole, not the player.

It's not a "loophole", you should stop referring to it that way. The IIHF rule is anywhere you are a citizen of. They have always been eligible to play for USA. Going to the USNDTP doesn't make someone eligible or grant a new means of eligibility. Anyone with an American parent is eligible to play for USA, call it the "Bret Hull" rule, because USNDTP has noting to do with it. Something is not a loophole if it's being used exactly how it's intended.

 

[William H Bonney]

So now kids are being "bought"? Good grief. The irony of this "exceptionalism" talk from someone whose name is literally "Dominance" and location tagged "the land of Hockey" is pretty rich

100% this. That was the funniest thing I've read from a poster whose entire HF identity is predicated on Hockey Canada's deity status over everyone else. Someone who likes nearly every post positive about Canadians, likes nearly every post negative about non-Canadians, gets mad when the national team threads for other team's fans aren't full of bloviated praise for Hockey Canada, and with a straight face claimed NHL teams were intentionally derailing prospects just because they were Canadian. But it's American hockey fans that are guilty here. Rich.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

When I see William Moore captaining Team Ontario at the Canada Winter games one month, and then tearing up team Canada at the U-17s a few months later in a USA sweater, it is just irritating as a fan that wants Canada to succeed internationally. There are no deeper meanings at play here.

I don't have any big problems with what you're saying that you want Canada to succeed. That's logical. I'm just not sure it's particularly relevant towards Canada succeeding.

How many real consequential players has Canada lost in the last 10 years that would've been factors for a hypothetical Canadian Olympic team or even the WJC?

William Moore might not turn into an NHL'er. All this ire came up over Thomas Bordeleau, and he's not trending towards more than a middle six or second line forward. And he might not become that either.

Maybe my post comes off as being a "know it all", but we're talking about 15 year old hockey players that no one has any idea if they'll have consequential hockey careers or not. Just seems like anyone shouldn't be that mad fighting over which team a 15 year old hockey player should play for. I would get it a lot more if someone was bringing this up now for someone like Gabe Perreault. Some kid who might not be drafted, seems a little irrelevant right now.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I don't have any big problems with what you're saying that you want Canada to succeed. That's logical. I'm just not sure it's particularly relevant towards Canada succeeding.

How many real consequential players has Canada lost in the last 10 years that would've been factors for a hypothetical Canadian Olympic team or even the WJC?

William Moore might not turn into an NHL'er. All this ire came up over Thomas Bordeleau, and he's not trending towards more than a middle six or second line forward. And he might not become that either.

Maybe my post comes off as being a "know it all", but we're talking about 15 year old hockey players that no one has any idea if they'll have consequential hockey careers or not. Just seems like anyone shouldn't be that mad fighting over which team a 15 year old hockey player should play for. I would get it a lot more if someone was bringing this up now for someone like Gabe Perreault. Some kid who might not be drafted, seems a little irrelevant right now.

Perreault spent much of his minor hockey career/childhood in the States. He's not a big deal to most Canadian posters here because he has had ties to the US his whole life.

 

[New User Name]

As a Canadian it's frustrating but don't blame Americans. Blame the Canadian fathers refusing to come home after they retire. American players playing for Canadian teams usually go home as do European players. Four of the top 5 players of all time retired in the states.

Wasn't there an American player playing for Edmonton who made sure his wife was in the US as he wanted his son to be born in the states?

But that's exactly what you have been devolving this into. Continually and intentionally.

The Moore example is a fun one. No Canadian parents, only born and raised in Canada because of his American dad's job. Would he be 100% be justified to have represented Canada? Absolutely.

But the continually moving goal posts is tiring from some Canadian posters in an attempt to always claim every player with any ties to Canada. Not saying this to imply you're responsible for the actions of others though.

If a dual that grows up in the US but has a Canadian dad who played hockey at one time, he's Canadian and USAH stole him.

If a dual has an American parent but grows up in Canada, he's Canadian and USAH stole him.

If a player has no Canadian lineage but was born/raised in Canada due to his American parents jobs, he's Canadian and USAH stole him.

It's as if any dual with ties to Canada in any way is inherently Canadian by default. And it's rabid jingoism that's driving it.

a little over the top by you don't you think lol

 

[Hockeyville USA]

As a Canadian it's frustrating but don't blame Americans. Blame the Canadian fathers refusing to come home after they retire. American players playing for Canadian teams usually go home as do European players.

Wasn't there an American player playing for Edmonton who made sure his wife was in the US as he wanted his son to be born in the states?


a little over the top by you don't you think lol

Yeah the only notable US players I know of who've settled post career in Canada are Craig Conroy and Todd Harkins. It's possible that Chris Higgins and Mike Komisarek are still in Canada, but not sure.

 

[kyle44]

I don't have any big problems with what you're saying that you want Canada to succeed. That's logical. I'm just not sure it's particularly relevant towards Canada succeeding.

How many real consequential players has Canada lost in the last 10 years that would've been factors for a hypothetical Canadian Olympic team or even the WJC?

William Moore might not turn into an NHL'er. All this ire came up over Thomas Bordeleau, and he's not trending towards more than a middle six or second line forward. And he might not become that either.

Maybe my post comes off as being a "know it all", but we're talking about 15 year old hockey players that no one has any idea if they'll have consequential hockey careers or not. Just seems like anyone shouldn't be that mad fighting over which team a 15 year old hockey player should play for. I would get it a lot more if someone was bringing this up now for someone like Gabe Perreault. Some kid who might not be drafted, seems a little irrelevant right now.

I wouldn't say they have been consequential to date (nor have I said this throughout). Jake Sanderson and Thomas Bordeleau would've helped at the junior level, but I can't think of any more. I can think of several that were highly touted coming out of Canada, but there is no way to know how they would've developed outside the NTDP.

My point was that the trend seems to be increasing, and it could become consequential at some point. There is a far larger list of impactful American sons of Canadian hockey players, but they can't control where their family decided to settle or where they were born. We just have a smaller pool of high level athletes in Canada to draw from, so it would've been nice if some of them represented Canada internationally.

 

[New User Name]

I wouldn't say they have been consequential to date (nor have I said this throughout). Jake Sanderson and Thomas Bordeleau would've helped at the junior level, but I can't think of any more. I can think of several that were highly touted coming out of Canada, but there is no way to know how they would've developed outside the NTDP.

My point was that the trend seems to be increasing, and it could become consequential at some point. There is a far larger list of impactful American sons of Canadian hockey players, but they can't control where their family decided to settle or where they were born. We just have a smaller pool of high level athletes in Canada to draw from, so it would've been nice if some of them represented Canada internationally.

Be honest now. If you were a Canadian player playing for an American team and had a son born in the states and he was offered a spot with the USNTDP what would you advise him?

I know I would tell him to jump at the chance.

 

[William H Bonney]

a little over the top by you don't you think lol

Not if you're paying attention to the predictable regurgitation that happens every time. Every single one of those positions is posited every time a dual discussion happens.

 

[New User Name]

Not if you're paying attention to the predictable regurgitation that happens every time. Every single one of those positions is posited every time a dual discussion happens.

it would be the same if the roles were reversed and don't dare say it wouldn't. LOL

Who was that American player that the US junior team guaranteed a spot but he chose Canada and many Americans on here were pissed. Remember that, long time ago. I remember it.

Ironically his choice was the wrong choice as the US won gold that year.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

it would be the same if the roles were reversed and don't dare say it wouldn't. LOL

Yes, but far fewer diehard hockey fans, especially regarding international hockey, in the States, as opposed to in Canada. When Chychrun chose Canada over the US, it's not exactly water cooler talk unless you're at a minor hockey rink and even then, many of those people aren't following international hockey news closely. And far fewer US born and developed players choose to play for Canada than the reverse.

 

[kyle44]

Be honest now. If you were a Canadian player playing for an American team and had a son born in the states and he was offered a spot with the USNTDP what would you advise him?

I know I would tell him to jump at the chance.

I absolutely would. I’m not knocking the program whatsoever; I’m just saying it’s unfortunate for us Canadian hockey fans that those players wont be representing Canada.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I wouldn't say they have been consequential to date (nor have I said this throughout). Jake Sanderson and Thomas Bordeleau would've helped at the junior level, but I can't think of any more. I can think of several that were highly touted coming out of Canada, but there is no way to know how they would've developed outside the NTDP.

Born in the United States, moved to Canada when he was 12 to follow his father's career, moved back to the United States when he was 16 to play with the USNDTP.

Now we're claiming Jake Sanderson isn't a real American, what are we even doing here?

 

[William H Bonney]

it would be the same if the roles were reversed and don't dare say it wouldn't. LOL

Who was that American player that the US junior team guaranteed a spot but he chose Canada and many Americans on here were pissed. Remember that, long time ago. I remember it.

Ironically his choice was the wrong choice as the US won gold that year.

I never said it would be different. USAH fans would 100% complain. That doesn't mean the current complaints, or hypothetical ones, aren't misguided and/or inconsistently applied.

 

[New User Name]

Yes, but far fewer diehard hockey fans, especially regarding international hockey, in the States, as opposed to in Canada. When Chychrun chose Canada over the US, it's not exactly water cooler talk unless you're at a minor hockey rink and even then, many of those people aren't following international hockey news closely. And far fewer US born and developed players choose to play for Canada than the reverse.

I absolutely would. I’m not knocking the program whatsoever; I’m just saying it’s unfortunate for us Canadian hockey fans that those players wont be representing Canada.

I never said it would be different. USAH fans would 100% complain. That doesn't mean the current complaints, or hypothetical ones, aren't misguided and/or inconsistently applied.

We agree

 

[William H Bonney]

We agree

Right, which is why what I said wasn't over the top, but reality.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Perreault spent much of his minor hockey career/childhood in the States. He's not a big deal to most Canadian posters here because he has had ties to the US his whole life.

If I was to get upset, I’d be more upset about the son of a Canadian player (also with a Canadian mother) who just so happened to live in the USA due to his father’s work. His family is Canadian.

Maybe I’m just not on the same page as some others on what’s important, but literally who cares where they played their minor hockey? I think it’s more important what the actual ties the player has to a particular country.

 

[Oak]

Lol and people say I am argumentative. Hfboards always good for a chuckle.

I am USA born and bred, but I agree with the Canadians who have an issue with kids playing their entire youth in Canada and then choosing to go to NTDP. Doesn't feel right for either side.