2024-25 NHLPA Player Poll

[Golden_Jet]

It is a case of poor reading comprehension. I mean if you really read what I wrote and then responded with "But Rory is small and he hits it far" then I am not sure what to tell you. Maybe read it again within the context of the post I was replying to and see if anything I was saying was remotely implying that small people can't hit it far, which is what your reply to me implies that I was saying.

I read a few times, it was just a bad analogy.

 

[crowfish]

I read a few times, it was just a bad analogy.

Let's check that:

The only problem with my analogy is that I assumed a baseline level of intelligence from the readers. Then I got hit with the "But RORY crushes it!"

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

That's an interesting perspective. I get what you are saying, but I am not sure it makes sense for McDavid to be knocked for his physical gifts.

I'll use a golf example. It's like if a big, strong golfer hits his drives 330 vs a short, skinny kid who hits it 325. Is the small kid really the better driver? It is impressive that he hits it so far without the apparent physical gifts, but objectively, the ball didn't go as far.

Which is why I didn't say Kucherov is a better player. But in terms of processing the game, reading defenses, finding soft spots and holes... he's better. McDavid can often just blow by everyone which Kucherov doesn't have the luxury of.

 

[crowfish]

Which is why I didn't say Kucherov is a better player. But in terms of processing the game, reading defenses, finding soft spots and holes... he's better. McDavid can often just blow by everyone which Kucherov doesn't have the luxury of.

I think skating faster than everyone to create passing opportunities is part of being a playmaker... That is the problem I have with your logic.

If you were comparing Bure to Matthews as who the better goal scorer was, would you dock Bure for having breakaway speed to create goals for himself, where someone like Matthews had to snipe most of his goals? I wouldn't. I would look at their goal-scoring stats (with proper context like era) and see whose outputs are better. You could easily convince me Matthews has a better shot than Bure, just like you could convince me Kucherov can do certain passes better than McDavid. But better playmaker should include all styles of playmaking and not ignore speed for some reason.

 

[NyQuil]

If you were comparing Bure to Matthews as who the better goal scorer was, would you dock Bure for having breakaway speed to create goals for himself, where someone like Matthews had to snipe most of his goals? I wouldn't. I would look at their goal-scoring stats (with proper context like era) and see whose outputs are better. You could easily convince me Matthews has a better shot than Bure, just like you could convince me Kucherov can do certain passes better than McDavid. But better playmaker should include all styles of playmaking and not ignore speed for some reason.

This used to come up a lot with respect to "best goalscorer."

Until very recently, Gretzky was the most prolific goal scorer statistically. But because he was the best playmaker, and his tendency was to pass first, people were uncomfortable calling him the "best goal scorer". Ovechkin kind of solved that problem.

Then you started seeing terms like "best pure goal scorer" and names like Bossy, Hull(s) and Bure would come up, but in this case, they are being rewarded for not putting up as many assists as some of their competition. Their single-mindedness towards shooting and scoring goals made people think that they were the "best" goal scorers because it was their sole focus.

Personally, I'm with you. If a guy scores the most goals (adjusted for games played or era, quality of teammates, sure) he's the best goal scorer. Whether he's putting in a 95 mph slapshot into the top corner, or deflecting it into the net off his ass, they all count the same.

Reminds me a bit of this:

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I think skating faster than everyone to create passing opportunities is part of being a playmaker... That is the problem I have with your logic.

If you were comparing Bure to Matthews as who the better goal scorer was, would you dock Bure for having breakaway speed to create goals for himself, where someone like Matthews had to snipe most of his goals? I wouldn't. I would look at their goal-scoring stats (with proper context like era) and see whose outputs are better. You could easily convince me Matthews has a better shot than Bure, just like you could convince me Kucherov can do certain passes better than McDavid. But better playmaker should include all styles of playmaking and not ignore speed for some reason.

That's just semantics then. If you want to include speed and goal scoring as part of playmaking that's fine. Then my description would just change to Kucherov has better vision/iq. I think most refer to passing ability/ vision when referring to playmaking, which is why Kucherov won best playmaker in the players' poll.

 

[Golden_Jet]

That's just semantics then. If you want to include speed and goal scoring as part of playmaking that's fine. Then my description would just change to Kucherov has better vision/iq. I think most refer to passing ability/ vision when referring to playmaking, which is why Kucherov won best playmaker in the players' poll.

I think most look at playmakers, as players that always think pass first, before shooting.

 

[NyQuil]

That's just semantics then. If you want to include speed and goal scoring as part of playmaking that's fine. Then my description would just change to Kucherov has better vision/iq. I think most refer to passing ability/ vision when referring to playmaking, which is why Kucherov won best playmaker in the players' poll.

I agree, it is semantics.

It's trying to disassemble a player's skillset into individual skills when the outcome "playmaking" can be the result of any number of combinations of those skills.

How good do they pass? How accurate? Can they get open and generate separation to make the pass? Can they see available players? Can they time it correctly? Can they hold on to the puck long enough to make a pass, if they need a second or two? Can they fool opposing defensive players?

I think you are correct in assessing which aspect of playmaking most players are probably focusing on.

But you could probably suggest others who are equally effective if using different skills to accomplish the objective.

 

[Beyonder91]

Let's check that:

View attachment 1014520

The only problem with my analogy is that I assumed a baseline level of intelligence from the readers. Then I got hit with the "But RORY crushes it!"

Cool you can have your opinion.
The best part is this poll is from the NHL players. The ones who actually play with and against Kucherov.
Why do you think they overwhelmingly voted Kucherov as the best playmaker?

 

[crowfish]

Cool you can have your opinion.
The best part is this poll is from the NHL players. The ones who actually play with and against Kucherov.
Why do you think they overwhelmingly voted Kucherov as the best playmaker?

The NHL players can have their opinion. The best part is that McDavid produces more assists than Kucherov. The cool part about that? It's not an opinion! It is an objective fact of the universe, which I then used to formulate my opinion.

 

[Beyonder91]

The NHL players can have their opinion. The best part is that McDavid produces more assists than Kucherov. The cool part about that? It's not an opinion! It is an objective fact of the universe, which I then used to formulate my opinion.

Cool I'll take the actual players opinion.
They also voted him a very, very close 2nd place for smartest player. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

 

[boredmale]

Best Faceoff Man: Crosby

Not to get picky but Trocheck and Pageau have a 59% FO% to Crosby's measly 57%

 

[crowfish]

Cool I'll take the actual players opinion.
They also voted him a very, very close 2nd place for smartest player. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

You can take whatever you want. But if you want to bet on who will assist on more goals in their next 80 GP hit me up and we can bet on it. You can put those player opinions to good use and try to make some money.

And btw, what you are doing is called an argument from authority (which is a fallacy). You have done nothing to challenge my argument besides saying "Well, these guys say so, therefore you are wrong.", If you want to make a real argument, you need to address the stats and claims I made and then rebut them. You are welcome to try to do that.

 

[Beyonder91]

You can take whatever you want. But if you want to bet on who will assist on more goals in their next 80 GP hit me up and we can bet on it. You can put those player opinions to good use and try to make some money.

And btw, what you are doing is called an argument from authority (which is a fallacy). You have done nothing to challenge my argument besides saying "Well, these guys say so, therefore you are wrong.", If you want to make a real argument, you need to address the stats and claims I made and then rebut them. You are welcome to try to do that.

I don't need to do any such thing. You are choosing to view best playmaker = most assists. That's your definition which is also subjective.
Even by your definition they are close to tied this year in assists per game.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Not to get picky but Trocheck and Pageau have a 59% FO% to Crosby's measly 57%

Take it up with the players. The category was actually "If you need to win a faceoff, who would you pick?" but that isn't necessarily a succinct category that rolls off the tongue, hence my rephrasing.

 

[ESH]

Interesting that Bratt got votes for best skater. I realize he is a fantastic skater, but would Devils fans agree he’s better than the 2 Hughes brothers on his team?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not to get picky but Trocheck and Pageau have a 59% FO% to Crosby's measly 57%

Giroux is 62% I think.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

Considering the scoring era, salary cap, and parity, McDavid might be the greatest playmaker in NHL history outside of Gretzky and possibly Lemieux. Besides Draisaitl there hasn't been many great options over the years to pass to on the Oilers either.

 

[landy]

Considering the scoring era, salary cap, and parity, McDavid might be the greatest playmaker in NHL history outside of Gretzky and possibly Lemieux. Besides Draisaitl there hasn't been many great options over the years to pass to on the Oilers either.

Is there an assist or point version of this somewhere? Can start the argument and would be interesting i bet.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Alex Ovechkin (999), 2. Gordie Howe (925), 3. Jaromír Jágr (841), 4. Wayne Gretzky (758), 5. Teemu Selänne (741), 6. Brett Hull (738), 7. Jarome Iginla (706), 8. Sidney Crosby (688), 9. Brendan Shanahan (672), 10. Phil Esposito (671)

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[crowfish]

Considering the scoring era, salary cap, and parity, McDavid might be the greatest playmaker in NHL history outside of Gretzky and possibly Lemieux. Besides Draisaitl there hasn't been many great options over the years to pass to on the Oilers either.

You are correct. McDavid is 2nd all-time in era-adjusted assists/game.

Assists per 82 games (era adjusted)

Gretzky - 95
McDavid - 89
Lemieux - 83

Also, as far as I can tell, McDavid is the only player besides Gretzky to have 100+ era-adjusted assists in a season. He had 108 era-adjusted assists, but it was the 2020-21 season, so it has a bit of an asterisk.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

You are correct. McDavid is 2nd all-time in era-adjusted assists/game.

Assists per 82 games (era adjusted)

Gretzky - 95
McDavid - 89
Lemieux - 83

Thanks. I just took a peak from the link Landy sent. Obviously McDavid is still in his prime so his average will likely go down somewhat in the second half of his career but as of now it is quite impressive.

 

[Toby91ca]

Not to get picky but Trocheck and Pageau have a 59% FO% to Crosby's measly 57%

But what about volume. Obviously not a big difference between 57% and 59%, but Crosby's volume is quite a bit more. Crosby has 1,002 wins vs. Trocheck at 907 and Pageau at 584.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You are correct. McDavid is 2nd all-time in era-adjusted assists/game.

Assists per 82 games (era adjusted)

Gretzky - 95
McDavid - 89
Lemieux - 83

Also, as far as I can tell, McDavid is the only player besides Gretzky to have 100+ era-adjusted assists in a season. He had 108 era-adjusted assists, but it was the 2020-21 season, so it has a bit of an asterisk.

Conner and Kucherov had 100 assists last year (only) season.
Yep 20/21 was a 56 game season, so ya bit of an asterisk.

 

[Rejavanated]

All good. I hate the makar/Hughes argument. Points wise, Hughes is amazing, but IMO closer to a 2024 Bouchard playoffs player than a Lidstrom complete dman since Hughes plays little defense and no PK, but I respect that the Norris is heavily weighed towards offense.

Then the actual voting process for the Hart and Norris sometimes makes no sense to us mortals, so I reference the actual voters (the fraction that do their quarterly voting) for insight into their minds.

I love Morrisey btw. Super stud.

This narrative needs to die. I have no issue with someone believing that Makar is the superior defenseman this year, but arguing that Hughes is an offense-only defenseman is just wrong. Hughes just tilts the play so much in terms of possession that it may appear to a casual observer that he doesn't play well defensively, I guess.

I'd argue it's also wrong to claim that Hughes can't PK just because he doesn't PK very much. It reminds me a lot of the nonsense that the Sedins couldn't PK either; they could, of course, but Vigneault didn't deploy them that way.

The Canucks have one of the best PKs in the league, largely without Hughes. What fool of a coach would give him big minutes on the PK when it's not necessary?

 

[landy]

This narrative needs to die. I have no issue with someone believing that Makar is the superior defenseman this year, but arguing that Hughes is an offense-only defenseman is just wrong. Hughes just tilts the play so much in terms of possession that it may appear to a casual observer that he doesn't play well defensively, I guess.

I'd argue it's also wrong to claim that Hughes can't PK just because he doesn't PK very much. It reminds me a lot of the nonsense that the Sedins couldn't PK either; they could, of course, but Vigneault didn't deploy them that way.

The Canucks have one of the best PKs in the league, largely without Hughes. What fool of a coach would give him big minutes on the PK when it's not necessary?

Analytics prove otherwise via sheltered o zone starts, d zone starts only with top F lines, and avoiding other teams top F lines.

I agree Hughes may be a fantastic Dman and PKer. We just dont see it.

I agree on the strategic coaching, but when one player gets a full 2+ minutes of ES/PP time over his competition (5 of the top 50 in TOI/GP dont PK and Quinn is literally the lowest), which could equate to 160+ minutes of extra time if healthy or 8-9 games worth of ice time, its easy to pick apart and say "show us the defense."