Speculation: 2024-25 - Free Agency/Trade Thread

[Lord Flashheart]

? The rumour, or the return?

Both, I hope.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Strome, Vatrano, Klingberg, Gudas, Killorn. All signed in the environment Verbeek created.

Strome - overpaid in term and debatably salary
Vatrano - fair in term and salary
Klingberg - overplayed his hand and had very limited options, grossly overpaid in salary so he could prove he could still earn a big paycheck
Gudas - overpaid in salary and term from what he could get elsewhere
Killorn overpaid in salary and term

Vatrano and Gudas outperforming expectations doesn’t mean that in general he hasn’t had to overpay to get those guys.

 

[Masch78]

Strome - overpaid in term and debatably salary
Vatrano - fair in term and salary
Klingberg - overplayed his hand and had very limited options, grossly overpaid in salary so he could prove he could still earn a big paycheck
Gudas - overpaid in salary and term from what he could get elsewhere
Killorn overpaid in salary and term

Vatrano and Gudas outperforming expectations doesn’t mean that in general he hasn’t had to overpay to get those guys.

What is overpaid in salary and term regarding Vatrano and Gudas? Man even Killorn is fine if he plays on a pace like he did in the 2nd half.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Strome - overpaid in term and debatably salary
Vatrano - fair in term and salary
Klingberg - overplayed his hand and had very limited options, grossly overpaid in salary so he could prove he could still earn a big paycheck
Gudas - overpaid in salary and term from what he could get elsewhere
Killorn overpaid in salary and term

Vatrano and Gudas outperforming expectations doesn’t mean that in general he hasn’t had to overpay to get those guys.

We got lucky with Klingberg b/c Verbeek offered him a multi-year deal at the beginning of FA, but Klingberg turned it down. ::: shuddering at the thought Klingberg could have been here for four to five years :::

 

[Ducks DVM]

What is overpaid in salary and term regarding Vatrano and Gudas? Man even Killorn is fine if he plays on a pace like he did in the 2nd half.

Gudas is on record as the Ducks having offered the best contract. In the Cap climate, that typically means you’ve overpaid.
I said Vatrano was fair.
Killorn isn’t going to play at that pace for the next 3 years. 6M was arguably fair at 2 years. It’s absolutely not at 4.

 

[Ducks DVM]

We got lucky with Klingberg b/c Verbeek offered him a multi-year deal at the beginning of FA, but Klingberg turned it down. ::: shuddering at the thought Klingberg could have been here for four to five years :::

Yeah, Klingberg’s agent is just possibly one of the worst in the modern era with the advice to turn down what Dallas offered.

 

[Kalv]

We have tons of quantity and we're trading our quality for more quantity? How would that make sense. (Responding to the Zegras aspect especially)

It's easy to distinguish the BS rumors. They do not take into account our needs, just the other side's lol. There is zero reason to even entertain a Zegras trade unless we get a better player.

 

[DavidBL]

Strome, Vatrano, Klingberg, Gudas, Killorn. All signed in the environment Verbeek created.

True but after each year the team hasn't really improved all that much

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I'm finding it very odd that so many Ducks fans are giving Verbeek a pass on what happened the other day in free agency. He talked an ENORMOUS game and then he went out and signed no one. So many people are saying "oh, Verbeek's playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers." That's nonsense. He failed. He could not back up his big talk and that warrants criticism.

I don't think you listened to his entire quotes at all , if you think he talked a big game. He stated that he would be pursuing a top 4 RD and top six RW, but was very quick to point out that it's easier said than done, because almost every team wants the same. It's not his fault that some of you only caught the first part. He guaranteed you nothing

 

[JAHV]

Strome - overpaid in term and debatably salary
Vatrano - fair in term and salary
Klingberg - overplayed his hand and had very limited options, grossly overpaid in salary so he could prove he could still earn a big paycheck
Gudas - overpaid in salary and term from what he could get elsewhere
Killorn overpaid in salary and term

Vatrano and Gudas outperforming expectations doesn’t mean that in general he hasn’t had to overpay to get those guys.

And Stamkos and Marchessault both would have been overpaid in term and salary. None of that addresses the point.

 

[JAHV]

True but after each year the team hasn't really improved all that much

Your question asked what is it about the environment that makes free agents not sign here. Until this offseason, that hasn't been true; free agents have signed here. So I don't think we can say that this is anything more than an anomaly until we see it next year.

 

[Ducks DVM]

And Stamkos and Marchessault both would have been overpaid in term and salary. None of that addresses the point.

Sure it does. Those two are of a significantly higher caliber than the guys we have signed. The guys we signed were all getting their biggest payday ever. Stamkos and Marchessault were not, and the term and salary offered by us were not high enough to warrant spending the rest of their careers on a losing team.

 

[JAHV]

Sure it does. Those two are of a significantly higher caliber than the guys we have signed. The guys we signed were all getting their biggest payday ever. Stamkos and Marchessault were not, and the term and salary offered by us were not high enough to warrant spending the rest of their careers on a losing team.

Stamkos and Marchessault are already in their mid-30's. They got overpaid by Nashville, too, at least in term if not in dollars.

There are plenty of reasons any individual player might not want to sign in Anaheim - taxes, geography, state of the team, etc. Verbeek has been able to convince players (high caliber players, although not to the level of Stamkos and Marchessault) to come play here. I was worried on July 1st that there was something wrong. There may be, but I don't think we'll know until next offseason. If this happens again next year, then perhaps we can begin to draw some conclusions about the environment over which Verbeek is presiding.

But I have come to the conclusion that we're talking about two guys on one day, both of whom spurned other teams trying to sign them in addition to Anaheim. That's not an indication of a trend or an inescapable flaw in the organization.

 

[70sSanO]

I'm not sure why people are so amazed that we did not sign the top free agents. The Ducks have rarely signed big name free agents. Scotty came for Rob. Kesler, Pronger, Giguere, Selenne 1.0 were all trades.

I believe that the Ducks have/had an internal cap. Not that it matters any getting to the floor, but I think there is more fiscal accountability than a lot of other teams.

Love him or hate him, Bob Murray created a toxic workplace. I have to believe that Pat Verbeek is changing that perspective around the league. The Ducks getting Gauthier is a great sign.

Winning will help a lot and the kids will be the ones to make or break us. Florida hadn't even won a playoff series until a couple years ago. Now they are a destination.

It remains to be seen if Verbeek's biggest mistake is Cronin. This season will determine where this franchise goes. With Maurice and Knoblauch in the SCF, Cooper, Bednar, Cassidy all winning, Cronin may not fit the current NHL mold, especially with young players. I'm more concerned about that than missing out on some free agent.

John

 

[Rooch]

He offered bigger and longer contracts to Stamkos and Marchessault but they both picked other teams. You can only sign players that are willing to play in Annahiem.

Why dont you tell us what deals he should have made?

He should have had a plan B. What kind of GM places all his bets on the top available free agents and then, when they sign elsewhere, has no backup plan to pursue others? He signed absolutely no one of consequence. Are you satisfied with Robby Fabbri and the rando we signed from Pitt? Is that going to get us into the playoffs? "A for effort" doesn't help us.

I can't tell you what deals we "should have made" because I'm not in the GM chair. I'm a fan who's pissed that we've been uncompetitive for so long (six consecutive losing seasons) and I expect more from Verbeek. He's supposed to make us better and so many of you are just giving him a pass on this.

 

[DavidBL]

Your question asked what is it about the environment that makes free agents not sign here. Until this offseason, that hasn't been true; free agents have signed here. So I don't think we can say that this is anything more than an anomaly until we see it next year.

Fair. 1 year doesn't make a trend. I do think it's concerning. And frankly, IMO, the tank is directly responsible for it. Maybe everyone is healthy this year and we see real growth and we're back to being considered a destination where players want to sign.

 

[Rooch]

I don't think you listened to his entire quotes at all , if you think he talked a big game. He stated that he would be pursuing a top 4 RD and top six RW, but was very quick to point out that it's easier said than done, because almost every team wants the same. It's not his fault that some of you only caught the first part. He guaranteed you nothing

I've listened to everything he's said, and you are correct: he guaranteed nothing and he delivered nothing. But he specifically mentioned more than once what positions he planned to fill. Are those positions filled? No, and free agency is over. In other hockey cities, when GMs flail and fail like this, they're held accountable.

This blind allegiance to Verbeek is baffling. He was hired two and a half years ago and we are still drafting in the top three and still missing on free agents. When does it stop being "cleaning up Bob Murray's mess" and starting being about Verbeek's own poor performance?

 

[Ducks DVM]

Stamkos and Marchessault are already in their mid-30's. They got overpaid by Nashville, too, at least in term if not in dollars.

There are plenty of reasons any individual player might not want to sign in Anaheim - taxes, geography, state of the team, etc. Verbeek has been able to convince players (high caliber players, although not to the level of Stamkos and Marchessault) to come play here. I was worried on July 1st that there was something wrong. There may be, but I don't think we'll know until next offseason. If this happens again next year, then perhaps we can begin to draw some conclusions about the environment over which Verbeek is presiding.

But I have come to the conclusion that we're talking about two guys on one day, both of whom spurned other teams trying to sign them in addition to Anaheim. That's not an indication of a trend or an inescapable flaw in the organization.

Yes. Almost all UFA’s who are desired get overpaid. As I said, they came here because we didn’t overpay ENOUGH. I’m not saying it would have been good management to do so, I’m saying that we needed to be the overpayment winner to get those guys, just like we were with Gudas.

Agree to disagree that 2nd/3rd line forwards and 2nd/3rd pairing D are “high caliber”. Quality, yes. High caliber, no, that to me is limited to top line/top pairing players, and the only time those UFA have EVER signed here were massive money (Federov), had a relative on the team, had a lifelong friend on the team (and that’s being generous), or were already Ducks property. Being bad has just made that worse.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I don't think you listened to his entire quotes at all , if you think he talked a big game. He stated that he would be pursuing a top 4 RD and top six RW, but was very quick to point out that it's easier said than done, because almost every team wants the same. It's not his fault that some of you only caught the first part. He guaranteed you nothing

His first quote on the matter contained the caveat “I don’t know that we can do BOTH”. That got weaker and weaker as time passed, until he (to me) was sending a pretty clear signal the day before free agency that we shouldn’t be getting our hopes up on the topic at all.

 

[JAHV]

He should have had a plan B. What kind of GM places all his bets on the top available free agents and then, when they sign elsewhere, has no backup plan to pursue others? He signed absolutely no one of consequence. Are you satisfied with Robby Fabbri and the rando we signed from Pitt? Is that going to get us into the playoffs? "A for effort" doesn't help us.

I can't tell you what deals we "should have made" because I'm not in the GM chair. I'm a fan who's pissed that we've been uncompetitive for so long (six consecutive losing seasons) and I expect more from Verbeek. He's supposed to make us better and so many of you are just giving him a pass on this.

Why do you assume he doesn't have a plan B?

 

[Rooch]

Why do you assume he doesn't have a plan B?

Why do you assume he does?

 

[Deuce22]

I've listened to everything he's said, and you are correct: he guaranteed nothing and he delivered nothing. But he specifically mentioned more than once what positions he planned to fill. Are those positions filled? No, and free agency is over. In other hockey cities, when GMs flail and fail like this, they're held accountable.

This blind allegiance to Verbeek is baffling. He was hired two and a half years ago and we are still drafting in the top three and still missing on free agents. When does it stop being "cleaning up Bob Murray's mess" and starting being about Verbeek's own poor performance?

Great question. I think it's all about expectations. When Verbeek traded Lindholm, Manson, and Rakell it became clear to me that Verbeek was going scorched earth rebuild. Murray had been trying to stay somewhat competitive post Carlyle debacle. I have not judged Verbeek the past two seasons on the Ducks' record because I understand that wasn't trying to win, he was trying to acquire elite talent by drafting near the top. If that's "blind allegiance," so be it. Rebuilds take time, I'm willing to give him that. I like the talent he has acquired, we'll see if he can begin to produce wins on the ice.

 

[JAHV]

Fair. 1 year doesn't make a trend. I do think it's concerning. And frankly, IMO, the tank is directly responsible for it. Maybe everyone is healthy this year and we see real growth and we're back to being considered a destination where players want to sign.

We were the worst team in the NHL two seasons ago and after that season a top 10 free agent (Killorn) and top 20 free agent (Gudas) both signed.

As I said elsewhere, it's a vicious cycle in some ways. You can't take steps forward unless you acquire better players, but it's hard to acquire better players through free agency without taking steps forward. The young players do need to get better. And Verbeek needs to get creative with improving the team through trade or other means.

I'm hopeful that we see a significant step this season. Carlsson, Zegras, McTavish, Gauthier, Mintyukov, Zellweger...all potentially can make this team competitive sooner rather than later.

 

[JAHV]

Why do you assume he does?

Because that's his job. Why would I assume otherwise? I could assume the worst, but there's no evidence to suggest that it's likely, and it seems like a miserable way to be a fan.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

I've listened to everything he's said, and you are correct: he guaranteed nothing and he delivered nothing. But he specifically mentioned more than once what positions he planned to fill. Are those positions filled? No, and free agency is over. In other hockey cities, when GMs flail and fail like this, they're held accountable.

This blind allegiance to Verbeek is baffling. He was hired two and a half years ago and we are still drafting in the top three and still missing on free agents. When does it stop being "cleaning up Bob Murray's mess" and starting being about Verbeek's own poor performance?

No blind allegiance here, there have been Verbeek moves where I have among the harshest critics, in particular the Lindholm trade. Just as far as this UFA period goes, I really don't know how much criticism is warranted, or at least how much is fair without knowing the specifics of who he bid on and how much it would have cost us to land them. There weren't many deals that I would have be comfortable matching, let alone beating. We don't know how much further we would have had to go to land any of the top guys.

Verbeek stated what he was after, I don't doubt that he actually was trying. But I don't want him throwing blank cheques at mid 30s UFAs and potentially messing up our future cap situation either. I like the young core being assembled here, and every decision should be based around what will put us in the best situation in 2-3 years time when those kids start to hit their prime. Absolutely should be looking to add quality pieces but it needs to make sense with the direction of the club.

Don't get me wrong, I feel the disappointment, wanted to see more significant improvements. But having now dabbled in recruiting a bit, I know that the best players always have many options and their own individual motivators. You can do everything right and the fit just isn't there from the player's perspective. We don't have enough information to criticize PV for not achieving something that just simply may not have been realistic without going to absurd lengths. Surely we all know how often UFA contracts turn out terribly.