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Speculation: 2024-25 Coaching/Management/Ownership

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I do believe it is time to give a little bit of credit where it is due.

I've been as much of a critic of Cronin as anybody, but reality is he has made some adjustments and the team is looking much more competent. We're holding onto the puck more, the team seems much more cohesive in their passing, and our coverage mistakes have dropped significantly. The goalies are doing their job (with almost identical numbers I might add) and giving us a chance to win every night.

Looking at some of Verbeek's deals:

Strome: Great compliment to Terry and Vatrano. Been one of our best forwards this year with that line. A slight overpay but probably needed to get him to come here. Time will tell how that contact ages but so far I'm fine with it.

Killorn: I think he'd be better suited to a 3rd line role at this point. Still shows flashes of brilliance and has looked better lately, but probably a deal we regret in short order. Once again, probably needed to overpay on term and AAV to get him to come here.

Dumoulin: Solid addition and better than I expected. He's accomplishing exactly what he was brought here to do which is insulate the younger players and take some of the tougher matchups. Solid trade by Verbeek.

Fabbri: He's looked decent when he's been healthy. Low risk, high reward deal there. Another solid deal by Verbeek.

Trouba: So far, so good. I'm a little concerned what an extension might look like, but he's been much much better than I anticipated.

Gauthier: I strongly believe we will end up winning this trade by a significant margin.

Even some of the smaller trades where he got Nesterenko for Klingberg or Agozzino for Sustr......he got a little value for scraps.

I think the only trade where I would have liked to see him get more value was Fowler.

It seems the biggest knock on Verbeek has been the hiring of Cronin. I can understand the frustration there, but I don't mind the idea of going after someone different.

He hasn't been around long enough to really critique his drafting, IMO. All in all I think there's a lot to like about what Verbeek is building here.
 
FlyingV09 said:
I do believe it is time to give a little bit of credit where it is due.

I've been as much of a critic of Cronin as anybody, but reality is he has made some adjustments and the team is looking much more competent. We're holding onto the puck more, the team seems much more cohesive in their passing, and our coverage mistakes have dropped significantly. The goalies are doing their job (with almost identical numbers I might add) and giving us a chance to win every night.

Looking at some of Verbeek's deals:

Strome: Great compliment to Terry and Vatrano. Been one of our best forwards this year with that line. A slight overpay but probably needed to get him to come here. Time will tell how that contact ages but so far I'm fine with it.

Killorn: I think he'd be better suited to a 3rd line role at this point. Still shows flashes of brilliance and has looked better lately, but probably a deal we regret in short order. Once again, probably needed to overpay on term and AAV to get him to come here.

Dumoulin: Solid addition and better than I expected. He's accomplishing exactly what he was brought here to do which is insulate the younger players and take some of the tougher matchups. Solid trade by Verbeek.

Fabbri: He's looked decent when he's been healthy. Low risk, high reward deal there. Another solid deal by Verbeek.

Trouba: So far, so good. I'm a little concerned what an extension might look like, but he's been much much better than I anticipated.

Gauthier: I strongly believe we will end up winning this trade by a significant margin.

Even some of the smaller trades where he got Nesterenko for Klingberg or Agozzino for Sustr......he got a little value for scraps.

I think the only trade where I would have liked to see him get more value was Fowler.

It seems the biggest knock on Verbeek has been the hiring of Cronin. I can understand the frustration there, but I don't mind the idea of going after someone different.

He hasn't been around long enough to really critique his drafting, IMO. All in all I think there's a lot to like about what Verbeek is building here.
Click to expand...

This aged well
 
FlyingV09 said:
So when the team looks good, it’s the players. But when they suck, it’s the coach? Ya, that makes sense.
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Cronin needed to go even during the stretches they won imo. Ignore the small blips and zoom out. They are dog shit and he constantly makes questionable decisions lol. The players are still part of the problem but he is in over his head, now and always
 
MMC said:
Playoffs were within reach then these guys go out in the road and play lifeless hockey, I ain’t letting them off the hook and placing it all in the head coach
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It’s like clockwork. They put a good stretch together and things look promising and they go out and play games like the last 2. Frustrating
 
FlyingV09 said:
So when the team looks good, it’s the players. But when they suck, it’s the coach? Ya, that makes sense.
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Yeah this is where I’m at. I don’t think Cronin is anything special as a coach but the team has shown they can be competitive with the rest of the league under him. So I ultimately just find the response to every loss being to bitch relentlessly about Cronin while letting the players off the hook incredibly obnoxious
 
MMC said:
Yeah this is where I’m at. I don’t think Cronin is anything special as a coach but the team has shown they can be competitive with the rest of the league under him. So I ultimately just find the response to every loss being to bitch relentlessly about Cronin while letting the players off the hook incredibly obnoxious
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I don't think the players are off the hook. Many comment here about how the players are playing poorly. Killorn and Gudas have been critiqued consistently all season for example. Plenty here, including myself, were calling for Cronin to be fired during the wins. I definitely think he should be fired after these losses. There is no justifiable angle to argue Cronin has a positive impact on the team. There are, however, many examples to argue that Cronin has a negative impact on the team. He needs to go.
 
MMC said:
Yeah this is where I’m at. I don’t think Cronin is anything special as a coach but the team has shown they can be competitive with the rest of the league under him. So I ultimately just find the response to every loss being to bitch relentlessly about Cronin while letting the players off the hook incredibly obnoxious
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No, actually they haven't. Since he's been here they've had far longer stretches of playing like shit than the few short stretches of looking respectable.

What is obnoxious is your condescension towards those who don't agree with you.
 
Dr Johnny Fever said:
No, actually they haven't. Since he's been here they've had far longer stretches of playing like shit than the few short stretches of looking respectable.

What is obnoxious is your condescension towards those who don't agree with you.
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Maybe if you include last season but just in terms of this season I really can’t agree with that
 
Yeah I’d put blame on the players, but when everyone has pretty much regressed, then I look at the coach and system. Zegras was the first victim who had two 60+ point seasons. Heck even Vatrano has regressed after having a career season. On pace for like only 20 goals this year.
 
Leonardo87 said:
Yeah I’d put blame on the players, but when everyone has pretty much regressed, then I look at the coach and system. Zegras was the first victim who had two 60+ point seasons. Heck even Vatrano has regressed after having a career season. On pace for like only 20 goals this year.
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He had that career year under Cronin tho
 
The problem is on a good day Cronin can only get these guys to be competitive and eke out wins in the back of goaltending and Terry/ Lacombe being studs. This roster certainly should be better than just barely pulling out a win on a rare good day.

A good coach can figure out a way to make this roster not rely on 1 player (Terry) like it clearly does now. On paper this is a solid roster when healthy, but Cronin just doesn’t have what it takes to get them there, regardless of those percentages turning for a week or two.
 
MMC said:
Playoffs were within reach then these guys go out in the road and play lifeless hockey, I ain’t letting them off the hook and placing it all in the head coach
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On a mostly young roster, it's on the coach to keep them on point. That was one of the factors Verbeek hired Cronin, to be rearing up the youth to the NHL level.

One stinker after several good games happens. Two consecutive stinkers, then that's gotta be on the coach for not waking the team up... or "coaching the team up".

The team is 10 points ahead after 42 games between last year and this year. While that is a huge jump, the team production isn't a huge jump. We've been relying on great goaltending and timely scoring to get points. Also, our GA is down b/c we're a more disciplined team this year, which is kudos to Cronin.

  • After 42 games
    • Last year
      • Record: 14-27-1 (29 pts)
      • GF = 103
        SOW= 1
      • GA = 144
      • PP GA = 39
    • This year
      • Record: 17-20-5 (39 pts)
      • GF = 103
        SOW= 2
      • GA = 133
      • PP GA = 32

Based upon the patterns for both seasons, the strong effort over a few recent games this season feels more like the outlier than the blowouts. We had 10 blowout losses last year in the first 42 games, blowout meaning losing by 3 or more goals. Including these recent two blowouts, the team has been blown out by 3 or more goals nine times this season.
 
ff8 said:
Cronin needed to go even during the stretches they won imo. Ignore the small blips and zoom out. They are dog shit and he constantly makes questionable decisions lol. The players are still part of the problem but he is in over his head, now and always
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I agree. I’m not a fan of his by any stretch and am all for a coaching change. I don’t put these last two games on the coach, though. They can be better and have shown they can be better than these last two showings. The lack of effort and execution that I saw is a player problem.
 
The problem I have with blaming the players is that if it is their fault - if they're really just not good enough - then there's no hope. Because with as poorly as they're all playing (with very few exceptions), there is no path to the playoffs, let alone Cup contention, without mostly turning over the roster and hoping to acquire elite talent somehow.

The hope is that the players are actually good, but the young ones just need more time to develop. If that's the case, we should be seeing progress from the young ones and we've really seen it from like one guy (LaCombe).

For my own sense of hope, I have to assume that the coach is holding them back because he's easy to replace. If it's the players, then we're not making the playoffs for another 5 years at least.
 
The thing is, even if it is on the players, it's not only on the players. Do they bear some responsibility? Of course. But these guys didn't spontaneously appear on the roster one day and Verbeek and Cronin just had to deal with it.

If you have a player or two who's not performing you have a player problem. If you have fifteen of them you have a systemic problem somewhere. Maybe that systemic problem isn't really the coach. Okay, that means now it's roster construction. Are the players just not talented enough? All of them? Sounds like a scouting and player development problem. Are they just a bunch of uncoachable clowns who can't show any pride after getting their teeth kicked in? That's quite a roster for a GM who's always talking up character and culture to have assembled. Is it just that the best players are too young and being asked to carry too much? Good thing the GM is choosing to use the NHL as a development league!

I'd say the evidence we have points to inept coaching being a big factor, perhaps the biggest. But maybe it's not. Maybe the problem is higher up the chain. Either way, blaming only the players strikes me as a bit of a cop-out. There's a bigger issue somewhere.
 
As a teacher, if I don't give clear directions to my students, but I expect them to understand all of the nuances of what I'm looking for and I evaluate them based on that, it is unfair. If the content of what I am teaching my students is not effective in achieving the goals we're working towards, that's not on the students but on me. If the method in which I'm teaching my students is not effective for the different type of learners in my room, then I am not effectively communicating to all the different types of learners in my space. That is not on the students but on the teacher to adjust the way they communicate to their needs.

It doesn't bother me when Cronin doesn't have an answer for some of the questions because, as a teacher, you don't know everything, and it's good to teach people what to do when you don't know an answer. However, if I couldn't answer any questions, then that would be an issue. And the fact that he can't answer or find solutions for any of the repetitive problems does not indicate someone who's working towards an effective solution. It indicates someone who's in over their head.
 
Hey234 said:
As a teacher, if I don't give clear directions to my students, but I expect them to understand all of the nuances of what I'm looking for and I evaluate them based on that, it is unfair. If the content of what I am teaching my students is not effective in achieving the goals we're working towards, that's not on the students but on me. If the method in which I'm teaching my students is not effective for the different type of learners in my room, then I am not effectively communicating to all the different types of learners in my space. That is not on the students but on the teacher to adjust the way they communicate to their needs.

It doesn't bother me when Cronin doesn't have an answer for some of the questions because, as a teacher, you don't know everything, and it's good to teach people what to do when you don't know an answer. However, if I couldn't answer any questions, then that would be an issue. And the fact that he can't answer or find solutions for any of the repetitive problems does not indicate someone who's working towards an effective solution. It indicates someone who's in over their head.
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It's not like he's being asked to re-invent the wheel either. "How can we generate more offense?" - "I dunno"
 
ohcomeonref said:
It's not like he's being asked to re-invent the wheel either. "How can we generate more offense?" - "I dunno"
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His strategy is so valuable that he knows he just keep it locked up and secret. Any outsiders who become aware of his strategy, could use it to reinvent the game as we know it. He’s absolutely hiding the secret sauce here
 
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