Speculation: 2024-25 Coaching/Management/Ownership

[MMC]

That's if you ignore past history of when a Ferrari was on paved roads.

I’m no more impressed with the way Eakins was coaching these guys than I am Cronin

 

[anezthes]

dump and chase hockey, the right way to play hockey. none of that scoring goals nonsense

"This is my dump. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My dump is my best friend. Without me, my dump is useless. Without my dump, I am useless."

 

[Kalv]

I will never understand why you guys refuse to put the slightest amount of blame on the players themselves for the lack of offense

It feels suspicious seeing how well for example Zegras played under Eakins (offensively) and how absolutely lifeless he and others look under Cronin.

That being said, I do agree that players need to take some blame as well and perhaps I have not been doing it enough. Just Cronin has been so frustrating to follow with his boring system, very questionable quotea periodically (not just "idk folks"), Lybushkins comments, etc)

 

[dracom]

I will never understand why you guys refuse to put the slightest amount of blame on the players themselves for the lack of offense

Because we’ve seen these players do better under a different coach or under Cronin before he infected them with his coaching.

 

[Deuce22]

Because we’ve seen these players do better under a different coach or under Cronin before he infected them with his coaching.

If your criteria for doing better is having more points, you are correct. Cronin wasn't hired to boost point totals. He was hired to make the team better defensively. I don't like his approach, but he's doing what he was hired to do.

 

[Ducks DVM]

A player has much more autonomy than this analogy implies

Because small skill players should not be forced to dump and chase.
Because old slow players should not be forced to dump and chase.
Because the players do not control the workout schedule that leaves them looking like the tired team in virtually every single game, unless you believe the entire team is up late/partying all the time, which I do not.
Because the players aren’t the ones who are supposed to make adjustments when the other team is shutting down the “strategy”.
Because the players aren’t responsible for the man to man D decision, when it clearly isn’t working. Whether that’s the system, or the players physical abilities, or the players’ brains, it isn’t working, for the 3rd year in a row.
Because it shouldn’t take 15-20 games of futility to change up a PP/PK, and the players don’t make that decision.
Because “I won’t know” is not an acceptable answer in every postgame interview.
Because Johnston makes one of our 4 lines significantly less effective than it could be 80% of the games he plays.
Because the coaches main praise from a win is that the team played dump and chase like he wanted.
Because player motivation is one of the jobs of the coaching staff. When it’s 1-2 guys, they’re the problem. It’s not 1-2 guys.
Because almost the entire team has players that looked significantly more competent, and significantly more energized, and significantly less confused on the ice under other coaches, both here and in other cities.
Because when you have a skill player who is 500% more effective at center than wing, he can’t just play center.
Because the GM had to hire someone to help the head coach communicate with the players.
Because IF the players are the problem, it is the coach’s department to figure out how to fix that.


Cronin got Zegras to be a much more complete player defensively. That’s actually great.

Ask yourself - if they fire him, do you think that the same players will play worse?

The facile response I gave was considerably less wall of text and got pretty much the same point across.

 

[Ducks DVM]

If your criteria for doing better is having more points, you are correct. Cronin wasn't hired to boost point totals. He was hired to make the team better defensively. I don't like his approach, but he's doing what he was hired to do.

Based on all the objective metrics, he’s not. He just has the same goalie play that Eakins had the year Verbeek was hired, and he’s neutered the offense in the process, 2 weeks of unsustainably high shooting percentage just masked that.

 

[MMC]

Because small skill players should not be forced to dump and chase.
Because old slow players should not be forced to dump and chase.
Because the players do not control the workout schedule that leaves them looking like the tired team in virtually every single game, unless you believe the entire team is up late/partying all the time, which I do not.
Because the players aren’t the ones who are supposed to make adjustments when the other team is shutting down the “strategy”.
Because the players aren’t responsible for the man to man D decision, when it clearly isn’t working. Whether that’s the system, or the players physical abilities, or the players’ brains, it isn’t working, for the 3rd year in a row.
Because it shouldn’t take 15-20 games of futility to change up a PP/PK, and the players don’t make that decision.
Because “I won’t know” is not an acceptable answer in every postgame interview.
Because Johnston makes one of our 4 lines significantly less effective than it could be 80% of the games he plays.
Because the coaches main praise from a win is that the team played dump and chase like he wanted.
Because player motivation is one of the jobs of the coaching staff. When it’s 1-2 guys, they’re the problem. It’s not 1-2 guys.
Because almost the entire team has players that looked significantly more competent, and significantly more energized, and significantly less confused on the ice under other coaches, both here and in other cities.
Because when you have a skill player who is 500% more effective at center than wing, he can’t just play center.
Because the GM had to hire someone to help the head coach communicate with the players.
Because IF the players are the problem, it is the coach’s department to figure out how to fix that.


Cronin got Zegras to be a much more complete player defensively. That’s actually great.

Ask yourself - if they fire him, do you think that the same players will play worse?

The facile response I gave was considerably less wall of text and got pretty much the same point across.

I don’t think it would be any worse but I don’t think it would really be any better either. I also just generally don’t agree with the take that our players looked considerably better under other coaches. Zegras has been very good all season and the points were starting to come, I think he’d have easily gotten to 60 point form again this season if he hadn’t gotten hurt. Terry had a down year last year under Cronin but this year looks a lot more like the player he was before. McTavish is having a down year now but was playing his best hockey under Cronin last year. Vatrano had his career year offensively under Cronin.

 

[Hey234]

Eakins pushed offensive at the cost of structure and defense. Cronin pushes defense at the cost of offense. Cronin is supposed to be teaching structure but either he is bad at it or the players are bad at it or both. It's fair to say both are failures because they are not creating a balanced team.

There is no question some of the blame is placed on the players. For example, early in the season, there were multiple 1 goal games where the players hit posts or missed the net instead of scoring. That's not on Cronin.

However, his focus on dump and chase, questionable lineup decisions, confusing PP construction, system issues that forces early season changes, issues with communication that caused players to be upset, lack of answers for problems with the team, multiple young players not developing, his focus on the 4th line, uneven treatment of young players, confusing overtime choices, lack of ability to get his players to shoot the puck instead of passing to the outside, and the list goes on. There are too many obvious problems that it makes me nervous about what we're not seeing. It's really bad and he should not be the coach.

 

[dracom]

If your criteria for doing better is having more points, you are correct. Cronin wasn't hired to boost point totals. He was hired to make the team better defensively. I don't like his approach, but he's doing what he was hired to do.

we're still being lifted by elite goaltending, without them our goals against would be league worst i imagine. And I guess I rather have a player like Zegras who puts up 60+ points as a center and isn't great defensively over a 20-30 point winger Zegras who is ok at defense.

 

[Ducks DVM]

I don’t think it would be any worse but I don’t think it would really be any better either. I also just generally don’t agree with the take that our players looked considerably better under other coaches. Zegras has been very good all season and the points were starting to come, I think he’d have easily gotten to 60 point form again this season if he hadn’t gotten hurt. Terry had a down year last year under Cronin but this year looks a lot more like the player he was before. McTavish is having a down year now but was playing his best hockey under Cronin last year. Vatrano had his career year offensively under Cronin.

Cronin tries to make the players fit his system rather than make his system fit the players. Good coaches do the opposite, which is why I’m of the opinion that they’d be better under another coach.

BB changed his system every single year to match whatever BM gave him to play with.

 

[AngelDuck]

Both BB and RC were higher level coaches than Eakins and Cronin with far more pedigree and track record. Even at Carlyle’s worst (which was bad) I would take him over those two lol

Yes, they had way more talent to work with, but I’m not convinced Eakins or Cronin has those teams in the western conference finals.

Time to go in a different direction. It sucks were stuck with him til the end of the season

 

[Firequacker]

I will never understand why you guys refuse to put the slightest amount of blame on the players themselves for the lack of offense

McTavish would probably disagree with this.

Others have covered the coaching issue versus player issue angle quite well, I'd just add that IMO there's an exception that proves the rule. There is one young-ish forward who appears to be thriving under Cronin's coaching, and it's Leason. The bottom six guy.
Is there an argument that there's only one young forward on this team who is diligent/smart/motivated/whatever enough to improve under this supposed development coach, and it's Brett freaking Leason*? Or is it more likely that the old-school, hardass, defensively minded coach who loves to praise his fourth line might just be better at coaching the bottom six than he is a high-skilled, offensively minded young top six that can't play a grinder game?

The probable counterpoint here is Zegras, who has still looked good without the points coming, sure. But he's also the clearest example of the coaching being what holds his performance back, considering how much better he plays at center where Cronin hates to play him.

*This is not shade on him at all, I'm a Leason partisan, have been since people were still complaining about Tolvanen. I'm delighted that he's doing well and hope he'll be a key part of the bottom six for years to come. I just don't believe for a moment that he's the only developing forward we have without some personal issue holding him back.

 

[Deuce22]

I’m not defending Cronin. I don’t like what he’s trying to implement. What I’m saying is that I believe he and Verbeek are on the same page. If Verbeek wanted an explosive offensive that carried the puck and tried to control possession, he wouldn’t have hired Greg Cronin.

 

[DavidBL]

I do wonder about successful development and what it looks like. I keep thinking of Ovechkin. Was not known for being a 200 ft player, or backchecking. His teams continued to struggle, but he was able to develop all the offensive skills. Then when he got older the staff was able to add the back checking and commitment to a 200 ft game and they win a cup. If they tried to do that from the beginning would they have won a cup sooner or would Ovechkin not be the player he is today?

 

[Hey234]

I’m not defending Cronin. I don’t like what he’s trying to implement. What I’m saying is that I believe he and Verbeek are on the same page. If Verbeek wanted an explosive offensive that carried the puck and tried to control possession, he wouldn’t have hired Greg Cronin.

Are they on the same page? Verbeek's public statements have very often not matched his actions.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I do wonder about successful development and what it looks like. I keep thinking of Ovechkin. Was not known for being a 200 ft player, or backchecking. His teams continued to struggle, but he was able to develop all the offensive skills. Then when he got older the staff was able to add the back checking and commitment to a 200 ft game and they win a cup. If they tried to do that from the beginning would they have won a cup sooner or would Ovechkin not be the player he is today?

I think it’s weird too. It sounds like they wanted to make Z a legit 2-way player which he’ll never be.

There’s a difference between becoming “adequate” or “good-enough” defensively for a top 6 C on a bad team and being what I think they want of him and neutering his offense along the way.

 

[Kalv]

McTavish would probably disagree with this.

Others have covered the coaching issue versus player issue angle quite well, I'd just add that IMO there's an exception that proves the rule. There is one young-ish forward who appears to be thriving under Cronin's coaching, and it's Leason. The bottom six guy.
Is there an argument that there's only one young forward on this team who is diligent/smart/motivated/whatever enough to improve under this supposed development coach, and it's Brett freaking Leason*? Or is it more likely that the old-school, hardass, defensively minded coach who loves to praise his fourth line might just be better at coaching the bottom six than he is a high-skilled, offensively minded young top six that can't play a grinder game?

The probable counterpoint here is Zegras, who has still looked good without the points coming, sure. But he's also the clearest example of the coaching being what holds his performance back, considering how much better he plays at center where Cronin hates to play him.

*This is not shade on him at all, I'm a Leason partisan, have been since people were still complaining about Tolvanen. I'm delighted that he's doing well and hope he'll be a key part of the bottom six for years to come. I just don't believe for a moment that he's the only developing forward we have without some personal issue holding him back.

You said very well what I couldn't articulate properly. Thank you.

A good question to ask is: which good player has Ceonin really developped in his career? When I looked it's only AHLers or fringe NHLers I could find

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

I don’t think it would be any worse but I don’t think it would really be any better either.

This is just another way of saying that Cronin is doing the best possible job. Is that really what you want to say? No coach could do better with this group?

 

[Firequacker]

You said very well what I couldn't articulate properly. Thank you.

A good question to ask is: which good player has Ceonin really developped in his career? When I looked it's only AHLers or fringe NHLers I could find

I know people have posted lists of his development successes in the past but of course can't find them now. IIRC Cal Clutterbuck was about the biggest name there? (Though my memory could be skewed because he's got the most memorable actual name ) But yeah that was the impression I had too.

The only players his bio on the Ducks site lists are guys from when he was at the USNTDP in the 90s. Which, I'm not expecting them to list everyone, but you'd think if he'd developed notable star level players more recently they'd want to point that out.

 

[robbieboy3686]

Zegras could use this time to really bulk up anyways, I have a feeling he comes in 10 lbs heavier in muscle next season

 

[GiveYouABagOfPucks]

"This is my dump. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My dump is my best friend. Without me, my dump is useless. Without my dump, I am useless."

Oohrah!

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Eakins pushed offensive at the cost of structure and defense. Cronin pushes defense at the cost of offense. Cronin is supposed to be teaching structure but either he is bad at it or the players are bad at it or both. It's fair to say both are failures because they are not creating a balanced team.

There is no question some of the blame is placed on the players. For example, early in the season, there were multiple 1 goal games where the players hit posts or missed the net instead of scoring. That's not on Cronin.

However, his focus on dump and chase, questionable lineup decisions, confusing PP construction, system issues that forces early season changes, issues with communication that caused players to be upset, lack of answers for problems with the team, multiple young players not developing, his focus on the 4th line, uneven treatment of young players, confusing overtime choices, lack of ability to get his players to shoot the puck instead of passing to the outside, and the list goes on. There are too many obvious problems that it makes me nervous about what we're not seeing. It's really bad and he should not be the coach.

Both BB and RC were higher level coaches than Eakins and Cronin with far more pedigree and track record. Even at Carlyle’s worst (which was bad) I would take him over those two lol

Yes, they had way more talent to work with, but I’m not convinced Eakins or Cronin has those teams in the western conference finals.

Time to go in a different direction. It sucks were stuck with him til the end of the season

We have to remember that BB and RC were given WCF rosters. Eakins was in year 3 of the Murray rebuild. Cronin is in year 3 of the Verbeek reset rebuild, with the Murray prospects.

Talent is important with production on the ice. Eakins had a good roster in 2021-22 that is skyrocketed into playoff contention before Verbeek blew up the team. They were finally healthy, but they also lacked talent depth. Anaheim started with five rookies that year in C Zegras, RD Drysdale, C Groulx, LD Mahura, LD Benoit, and Mac's 9-game stint. A problem that year was if one of our top-3 veteran D-men got injured in Lindholm, Fowler, or Manson got injured, then we would be sporting at least two rookie d-men; if more than one of our top-3 vet D-men got injuried, then sometimes all three rookie d-men would be on the ice.

When Verbeek took over the team at all-star break, the Ducks were 3rd in the Pacific. We were missing at least one of our top-3 d-men for nine games prior to All-Star break. We went 3-4-2 (8 pts) and 0.444 Pts % in those nine games. It got worse from then onward the more games they missed.

Ducks at TDL	2021-22
Game Set	Games	W	L	OTL	Pts	Pts %		GF	GA	GD	GF/GP	GA/GP
62 games	62​	27​	25​	10​	64​	0.516​		180​	197​	-17​	2.90​	3.18​
w/ L, M, F	40​	20​	12​	8​	48​	0.600​		125​	118​	7​	3.13​	2.95​
w/o one of them	22​	7​	13​	2​	16​	0.364​		55​	79​	-24​	2.50​	3.59​

A better defense produces more offense under Eakins. This should dispel that Eakins only focused on offensive production. When Verbeek jettisoned our top shutdown d-men in Lindholm and Manson at the TDL as well as not replace equal talents for the next season, then it became impossible to have a good defensive team. There were no defensive d-men given to Eakins in the 2022-23 season, which resulted in an unbalanced roster. Can't blame a coach for the weak roster given to them.

---

We can look at our past four season's first 25 games to compare offense and defense.

Cronin's defensive scheme at ES doesn't seem to be all that much better than Eakins in '21-22. Cronin's offensive scheme appears to plateau at the same result for the past two seasons at the 25-game mark. It's a terrible offense.

 

[Mr Rogers]

i think Cro and Randy are cut from the same cloth. Except Randy is a much better tactician. Both are inflexible but I think Randy at least knew how to switch things up when his roster demanded it even if he was reluctant to. Cronin I don’t think has any idea of what to do. His solutions in postgames are always to shoot more and essentially stop standing around as much (skate more). I think these are in large part symptoms of a larger systemic issue and not the source itself.

 

[Ducks DVM]

i think Cro and Randy are cut from the same cloth. Except Randy is a much better tactician. Both are inflexible but I think Randy at least knew how to switch things up when his roster demanded it even if he was reluctant to. Cronin I don’t think has any idea of what to do. His solutions in postgames are always to shoot more and essentially stop standing around as much (skate more). I think these are in large part symptoms of a larger systemic issue and not the source itself.