GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[Ryder71]

I get it. Bunting's not a middle-six though. That implies he should be on a team's 3rd line half the time, more or less.
He's the 11th most productive left winger at even-strength since he joined the league.

Bunting is tarred and feathered here because he's compared to Jake in the eyes of some individuals here. But on his own merit he's accorded himself very nicely. Some here are jaded. He's not Jake but he's a very solid top six LW.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Tweeners don't reach 58 non-PPP's in a season in any situation. Ever.

Alright terrific. You put more stock into things that I do not. The world will keep spinning my guy.

Bunting to me is a middle six forward. He's a 40-50ish point complimentary player. In the modern league, that's what that is.

 

[MrBurghundy]

No, it's someone worse. Bylsma never missed the playoffs, or even came close to doing so.

That's asanine to say. He had 2 generational talents in the primes of their careers. He squandered it away year after year. The dude was a terrible coach, and if you don't think so you're just flat out wrong.

 

[Gurglesons]

I get it. Bunting's not a middle-six though. That implies he should be on a team's 3rd line half the time, more or less.
He's the 11th most productive left winger at even-strength since he joined the league.

No he isn't. Filip Forsberg is.

Bunting is 52nd.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

He's 19th if you want to shave off the first two years he was in Arizona.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

That's asanine to say. He had 2 generational talents in the primes of their careers. He squandered it away year after year. The dude was a terrible coach, and if you don't think so you're just flat out wrong.

Mike Sullivan is probably a worse coach than Bylsma.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Alright terrific. You put more stock into things that I do not. The world will keep spinning my guy.

Bunting to me is a middle six forward. He's a 40-50ish point complimentary player. In the modern league, that's what that is.

I also think people who think Bunting is anything more than a middle six forward (or low end complimentary type first liner like a bargain Kunitz) are those who haven't watched him and just look at his HockeyDB page.

On the Leafs, he was the third wheel with Matthews and Marner. Both guys racked up points, so as the third wheel you're going to get your share. But at no point in time was he the main (or even second) reason that line was producing. If you swapped out Matthews/Marner and put two "average" scorers, Bunting's totals take a massive hit because he's simply not offensively gifted enough to keep that line producing.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Bunting is tarred and feathered here because he's compared to Jake in the eyes of some individuals here. But on his own merit he's accorded himself very nicely. Some here are jaded. He's not Jake but he's a very solid top six LW.

Since 2018-19 at 5v5. Bunting is not as far off from Guentzel as some would have us believe.
He continues to play like this and gets like 20 PPP's? That's a bonafide steal at 4.5M.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Don't get me wrong. I like Bunting. I was one of the few who was pretty happy to get someone like him as part of the Guentzel deal (even if I was meh on the picks/prospects). But he is what he is. He's a 50-ish point winger who can play with big boys and produce, but isn't actually a guy who will produce like a top liner without being stapled to a 100 point guy.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I also think people who think Bunting is anything more than a middle six forward (or low end complimentary type first liner like a bargain Kunitz) are those who haven't watched him and just look at his HockeyDB page.

On the Leafs, he was the third wheel with Matthews and Marner. Both guys racked up points, so as the third wheel you're going to get your share. But at no point in time was he the main (or even second) reason that line was producing. If you swapped out Matthews/Marner and put two "average" scorers, Bunting's totals take a massive hit because he's simply not offensively gifted enough to keep that line producing.

Right... like... what's the weird white knight pedestal stuff. He's a fine enough player but he is what he is. It feels like we're trying to pump dude a little too hard. He's played with some really good players... including Malkin.

 

[SEALBound]

View attachment 911063
View attachment 911066

Since 2018-19 at 5v5. Bunting is not as far off from Guentzel as some would have us believe.
He continues to play like this and gets like 20 PPP's? That's a bonafide steal at 4.5M.

Stats aren't going to convince the nay-sayers.

Derbus didn't eva gurt da furst rund pick in dat NHL entra druft!!!!!

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

lol alright then. I see what it actually is, here. Nevermind. Carry on with the circle jerk.

 

[Gurglesons]

Stats aren't going to convince the nay-sayers.

Derbus didn't eva gurt da furst rund pick in dat NHL entra druft!!!!!

If the argument is Michael Bunting produces like Jake Guentzel, I'm glad I'm on the opposite side of this argument.

 

[Ryder71]

View attachment 911063
View attachment 911066

Since 2018-19 at 5v5. Bunting is not as far off from Guentzel as some would have us believe.
He continues to play like this and gets like 20 PPP's? That's a bonafide steal at 4.5M.

Totally agree! He doesn't have as high of an offensive acumen as Jake, but he's more physical and very consistent in his work ethic and attention to detail away from the puck.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Stats aren't going to convince the nay-sayers.

Derbus didn't eva gurt da furst rund pick in dat NHL entra druft!!!!!

It's not stats, it's context. The year Bunting had his 58 ES points was the same year Matthews had his MVP season and scored 77 points (including 44 goals) at ES.

Anyone not seeing that Bunting benefited from that and ignoring his other season where he never came close to that total again are the ones that aren't looking at the stats properly.

 

[Gurglesons]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840791502944927895

they gotta trade him for a 1st if he pops.

 

[Pancakes]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1840791502944927895

they gotta trade him for a 1st if he pops.

They'll just lock him up to a six year deal and he'll be bad the minute his skating declines at all because DOC relies heavily on his physical tools to be effective.

I'm curious to see how Jake does on Tampa's powerplay. Jake wasn't effective at all here on the powerplay but the Pens PP is a pile of trash. If Jake can't be effective on TB's powerplay then we'll know it's Jake just not being that good on it because TB actually knows how to structure a powerplay and Kucherov is an insanely good PP qb.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Bunting has been way better than I thought he would be. He was basically a fourth-line winger in Carolina. Here, he is perfect for Malkin. People seem to complain about Bunting because he relies on teammates for production. That is literally the definition of a complementary player.

He complements Malkin to a tee. And for once, our coach actually sees this and seems to be on board with helping Malkin out here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Alright. If we're saying that 50+ point seasonal average guys are middle-sixer caliber players now, I'm leaving the discussion
The circus is in town.

 

[Gurglesons]

Bunting has been way better than I thought he would be. He was basically a fourth-line winger in Carolina. Here, he is perfect for Malkin. People seem to complain about Bunting because he relies on teammates for production. That is literally the definition of a complementary player.

He complements Malkin to a tee. And for once, our coach actually sees this and seems to be on board with helping Malkin out here.

I don't think the argument is about Bunting not being an effective player.

It's about saying because he produces at a certain rate per 60 that he is an elite even strength player.

They'll just lock him up to a six year deal and he'll be bad the minute his skating declines at all because DOC relies heavily on his physical tools to be effective.

I'm curious to see how Jake does on Tampa's powerplay. Jake wasn't effective at all here on the powerplay but the Pens PP is a pile of trash. If Jake can't be effective on TB's powerplay then we'll know it's Jake just not being that good on it because TB actually knows how to structure a powerplay and Kucherov is an insanely good PP qb.

I feel like Jake is going to hit 50 goals if he is healthy.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

They'll just lock him up to a six year deal and he'll be bad the minute his skating declines at all because DOC relies heavily on his physical tools to be effective.

I'm curious to see how Jake does on Tampa's powerplay. Jake wasn't effective at all here on the powerplay but the Pens PP is a pile of trash. If Jake can't be effective on TB's powerplay then we'll know it's Jake just not being that good on it because TB actually knows how to structure a powerplay and Kucherov is an insanely good PP qb.

It is about readjusting for TB. Stamkos was more important to their PP than Kucherov is IMHO. The threat of that shot opened up everything else. Sure, you have to have the magician who is able to see the other options opening up, but without that shot can they still be a dominant PP?

Guentzel will move to the Point bumper role, and Point will have to try to replace Stamkos.

 

[deakka]

Lame they sent Murashov down. Was hoping he would get some game action.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Alright. If we're saying that 50+ point seasonal average guys are middle-sixers now, I'm leaving the discussion
The circus is in town.

They are? When one thinks about a 1st liner, does anyone say "we desperately need to add a 50 point guy to our sagging offense" or do they talk about guys who are 70+ point guys?

Guys like Bunting (and Rakell, and Tatar, and Nyquist, and DeBrusk) are middle six players. They can play on a top line, but only as the third option with two legitimate top line players. But they can never BE the top line player on a line.

Bunting has been way better than I thought he would be. He was basically a fourth-line winger in Carolina. Here, he is perfect for Malkin. People seem to complain about Bunting because he relies on teammates for production. That is literally the definition of a complementary player.

He complements Malkin to a tee. And for once, our coach actually sees this and seems to be on board with helping Malkin out here.

The discussion is that apparently Bunting produces like Jake does because of his ES/60 numbers. It's not whether or not Bunting can be effective in a complimentary role.

 

[Pancakes]

It is about readjusting for TB. Stamkos was more important to their PP than Kucherov is IMHO. The threat of that shot opened up everything else. Sure, you have to have the magician who is able to see the other options opening up, but without that shot can they still be a dominant PP?

Guentzel will move to the Point bumper role, and Point will have to try to replace Stamkos.

That seems like the most likely scenario but I haven't been following TB's camp so I don't know if that's how they envision it or not.

I feel like Jake is going to hit 50 goals if he is healthy.

If he clicks on their powerplay that doesn't seem out of the question.

 

[SEALBound]

It's not stats, it's context. The year Bunting had his 58 ES points was the same year Matthews had his MVP season and scored 77 points (including 44 goals) at ES.

Anyone not seeing that Bunting benefited from that and ignoring his other season where he never came close to that total again are the ones that aren't looking at the stats properly.

Would that be in the same way Guentzel has benefited from playing with Crosby?

Look, I'm not sitting here saying Bunting is as good or better than Guentzel. He's not and never will be. Fact is though, from the stats and eye test (from his time here) suggests that it wasn't a bad consolation prize to get in the trade, especially when he's coming in at half the cost and has a pinch of nasty in his game (which the entire forum complained about not having since Horny left).

Why are people so down on the guy? Truthfully, I think it's because some people hate Dubas and want to go out of their way to hate any trade he makes or player he brings in. Any objective person should be happy with Bunting since his arrival here.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

They are? When one thinks about a 1st liner, does anyone say "we desperately need to add a 50 point guy to our sagging offense" or do they talk about guys who are 70+ point guys?

Guys like Bunting (and Rakell, and Tatar, and Nyquist, and DeBrusk) are middle six players. They can play on a top line, but only as the third option with two legitimate top line players. But they can never BE the top line player on a line.

That's not what being middle-six means for Bunting
Being middle-six means there's either 1 or 2 better left wingers on a team than you, on average, throughout the league.
That is not the case with Bunting at all.
There were 29 left wings who reached 50 last year. He got 55, not even with optimal usage or linemates. Even if you account for injuries, at the very worst he's a high-end 2LW in his down year.

Only reason you'd put a guy like that on L3 is if you're either stupid, outrageously stacked at LW, or are looking for a tactical advantage like with Kessel with HBK.

 

[Pancakes]

Would that be in the same way Guentzel has benefited from playing with Crosby?

Look, I'm not sitting here saying Bunting is as good or better than Guentzel. He's not and never will be. Fact is though, from the stats and eye test (from his time here) suggests that it wasn't a bad consolation prize to get in the trade, especially when he's coming in at half the cost and has a pinch of nasty in his game (which the entire forum complained about not having since Horny left).

Why are people so down on the guy? Truthfully, I think it's because some people hate Dubas and want to go out of their way to hate any trade he makes or player he brings in. Any objective person should be happy with Bunting since his arrival here.

Yeah Bunting brought an element this team desperately needed. It remains to be seen if he can continue doing that or if he was just out to prove himself after being dealt. If he can bring that same game this year and if even one of those prospects pans out to be something then I'm pretty happy with the Jake trade.

I can understand being annoyed with Bunting being part of that deal if you were hoping that Dubas just got a pure futures package, though. But I wonder how likely that ever was going to be. The teams that wanted Jake were playoff teams so it was probably always going to be a case of a team needing to send salary back to make a Jake trade work. Perhaps the true ideal would have been a team sending a crappy (but expensive) player back so that said player didn't affect the package Dubas got of futures, but again how many playoff teams have dead weight like that to give up?

Also if Dubas doesn't get Bunting back then he's got to use the cap space to get some other top six player for Sid this year and who knows how that plays out. I doubt we get someone as good as Bunting or as cheap.