GDT: 2024-2025 Training Camp

[DesertedPenguin]

Tbh it seems kinda odd that they weren't just taking a bus from Pittsburgh to Detroit, flying there for a pre-season game feels pretty unnecessary.

NHL teams fly pretty much everywhere, except for the Rangers to Long Island or NJ, etc.

Buses happen occasionally, but not for a four hour or so drive to Detroit from Pittsburgh.

 

[chethejet]

Puustinen is simply a question mark as to his size and ability to score as his shot is AHL level. He needs to get stronger and quicken his shot. Plus his D is not exactly great. But he is improving and with more development he can be a decent winger. Rust was not exactly a good winger early as well.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Why couldn’t the Pens get to Detroit ? TIA

Mechanical issues with their charter.

Stuff happens. They have to make alternate arrangements to get to Ottawa now for Sunday.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, between NHL vets and WBS guys potentially ready to get some time with the big club, the team's got like 7 guys capable of centering the 3rd and 4th lines. No idea why Eller and Acciari are still here tbh, even with the inevitability of injuries on the horizon.

And it isn't this bullshit about the PK either, because there's a lot of those players from WBS that can PK and there's a lot of players on the team that can also PK and it's not like Acciari is doing some insane top 3 PK unit work here. It was ranked 7th when he had his concussion from Feb 7th-21st when he didn't play, he's not some vital selke caliber anything.

Puustinen is simply a question mark as to his size and ability to score as his shot is AHL level. He needs to get stronger and quicken his shot. Plus his D is not exactly great. But he is improving and with more development he can be a decent winger. Rust was not exactly a good winger early as well.

Yeah this is all wrong.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

And it isn't this bullshit about the PK either, because there's a lot of those players from WBS that can PK and there's a lot of players on the team that can also PK and it's not like Acciari is doing some insane top 3 PK unit work here. It was ranked 7th when he had his concussion from Feb 7th-21st when he didn't play, he's not some vital selke caliber anything.


Yeah this is all wrong.

Dude, the fallback of "he's an important PKer" is one of the most aggravating things in the world when it comes to coachspeak. It's like hearing a GM try to justify an abysmal top-10 draft pick by lauding a guy's leadership or saying some bullshit about "he knows how to win".

"Yeah, we passed on Michkov, but we got this guy whose ceiling is 15pt 4th liner at 5th overall."

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Lets put it this way, if the Penguins did the same to Drew O'Connor after scoring 5 goals 46 games in 2022-23, you'd never see the progression he made to score 16 goals this year, because according to Sullivan in this situation - scoring just 6 goals across 78 games is not enough out of him, but you know what, he got a shot anyway, more than Val. To give that opportunity to more outside players than players from within that are showing that potential is ridiculous, especially for a team that should get younger sure, but also should be giving opportunities to players like Puustinen that they've drafted and developed, spent time and money into and then suddenly discard the moment a veteran with some draft pedigree that's failed to live up to it, is brought in.

The irony if Drew getting more rope is that he got 10 games, then 22, and then 46 and was still given opportunities. Across 32 games, he put up 3 goals, then across 46 games in a season he put up 5, then finally in his 4th season he was able to produce 16 goals while getting a lot of top 6 minutes. This progression, is absolutely fine, you expect to see that. But then when it's only this one player that gets this benefit, it's bizarre.

Puustinen got 1 game, wasn't called up for an entire season, then was up for 52 games. On average, his ice time was lower than Noel Acciari and just barely more than Matthew Phillips, a waiver pick-up that was absolutely useless and has scored literally 1 goal in his entire NHL career. The coach seemingly wants to give everyone a better shot than Puustinen and it's bizarre. His scouting on Puustinen was also insanely off.

He claimed Puustinen wasn't quick enough - He was.
He claimed Puustinen's defensive game wasn't there yet - Yet he was better defensively than most of the Pens forwards.

HIs P/60 puts him in a top 6 winger company. So to see a player do all of that and suddenly needs to "earn it" over players that appear to not need to, is pretty shitty. Like I said, all I hoped for is for them to at least give Puustinen the same opportunities they gave Drew, because if they treated Drew the way they treat Val, you'd never see Doc progress into what he did last season, albeit with a ton of opportunity to do it and he frankly should have produced more given that. But the leap from 11pts in 46 games to 33 in 79 is a decent jump even with heavier top 6 minutes.


The comparison here is Drew's 2022-23 season to Puustinen's 2023-24 season and determining if either deserves another longer look - Drew did and he thrived, Puustinen produced more in his 40+ game stint and suddenly deserves less opportunity.

Couple things --
1. Points/60 is not a predictive stat. It does not hold true that a player will produce at a similar rate with increased usage. He might. Or he might trail off.

2. Puustinen is not going to supplant Rust or Rakell on the right side in the top six. He has not shown an ability to be a disruptive physical force like DOC or Bunting, and the Penguins seem to be trending in a direction where they want an aggressive forechecker and/or net presence on each of Sid and Geno's lines.

3. DOC got opportunities because his offense was the last portion of his game he needed to work on. It was the same deal years ago with Rust. Sullivan will give young guys time if they show positional versatility and situational versatility. DOC PK'd, could play any forward spot. Puustinen is a right winger who doesn't PK - he didn't even do it in WBS.

4. Puustinen doesn't have a huge age advantage on his competition. Beauvillier is 27. He's the oldest. But Puustinen is 25. Glass is 25 and has more of a track record. DOC is 26. Puljujarvi is 26. Even Blake Lizotte is 26.

5. So, the issue is who is the best fit for what the Penguins want to do? Rightly or wrongly, the Pens focus on defensive responsibility first in the bottom six. They also seem to be looking at more physicality (Lizotte plays that way, and it's why they moved Acciari to wing to free him up more).

6. Glass and Puljujarvi are former first round picks. They have pedigree. And they're still young enough to establish themselves again. Like it or not, those types of guys get longer looks than former 7th round picks.

7. None of this means Puustinen can't make the team. But he's going to have to show growth and production. And that starts with his shot. His shot takes too long to release consistently. He has flashes. But it's not enough. Puustinen is going to have show an ability to score and show a consistent defensive conscience.

The Penguins have a bunch of guys in similar circumstances - either trying to establish themselves or trying to regain their footing after a down year or two. It's up to players to seize the moment and erase all doubt, otherwise the coaches are just going to pick guys they feel can trust.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah I generally agree with this, I honestly don't understand Sullivan's issues with Puustinen. I think he's correct in saying that Puustinen needs to score more goals, but I didn't see any sort of major defensive deficiencies last year that puts him in the Sprong or Kessel territory of "he's hurting the team if he's not scoring".

I generally think that Puustinen doesn't offer much beyond his offense, but there's a difference between "not offering much beyond his offense" and "being bad beyond his offense". He's small, but I didn't really notice any sort of issues with him on the forecheck or going to dirty areas. He's not notable defensively, but he's also not making bad mistakes by forcing the puck or being out of position. I think his all-around game is pretty similar to Sheary's when Sheary first broke into the league, in that it's not the main things he offers but also isn't really a problem either.

I get the impression that Sullivan views Puustinen more in the Sprong territory than the Sheary territory, and I'm not entirely sure why he thinks that.

Puustinen did need to score more goals, the same way Drew needed to score more goals after 2022-23. But you give a player time to grow from that season and build on it like they did with Drew, in the camp after that season, Drew was getting reps with Crosby a couple of games and then a couple of games with Eller.

So they claim Puustinen needs to shoot more, but now he's having to earn a roster spot, meanwhile Drew didn't need to do the same? Drew was shooting at 1.35 shots per game that year, Puustinen was shooting at 1.65 shots per game last season - he was definitely putting shots on net more than even Drew was before he was given a permanent spot the following season, so again, Puustinen was doing more to score in his 40+ game season than Drew was, but one player still got a better path to a roster spot.
The size shit doesn't really fly for me - Sheary, Phillips, etc were all given better chances than Puustinen and I am talking Sheary's both stints where he was used a lot with Sid and even Phillips who got 2mins per game on the powerplay. So Puustinen was shooting, more than Drew was after his season where he earned being on the roster full time.


And this narrative by others about his shot isn't great needs to stop, it's f***ing bullshit.

Imagine a dipshit like Sullivan even admitting this:

The Penguins are looking for Puustinen to progress even further next season, with Head Coach Mike Sullivan saying they’re excited about the opportunity with the 25-year-old, who impressed with his offensive instincts and shot, particularly his one-timer.

Puustinen Propelled by Love for the Game | Pittsburgh Penguins

When Valtteri Puustinen is back home in Finland, there’s one thing he misses most about being in North America. “Games!” he said without hesitation. “Because I like to play in the games so much.” The young forward appeared in 52 with Pittsburgh last season, recording five total goals, including his

www.nhl.com

Lacks optimum size for the National Hockey League, but he makes up for it with a terrific release and scoring instincts. Plays well with a playmaking center. Could stand to improve his defensive work. Must produce consistent offense in order to stick as an NHLer over time.

https://sportsforecaster.com/nhl/p/27598/Valtteri_Puustinen

Yeah why would a team that struggles to score, need a player like this...

Valtteri Puustinen followed his strong rookie campaign in North America with another standout season in the AHL. On a struggling Wilkes-Barre team, Puustinen once again paced the team in scoring, with 59 points in 73 games. He is a speedy winger who can fit up and down the lineup. At the NHL level, Puustinen looks to fit best as a transition-focused player who can provide support to whichever center he gets the opportunity to play alongside. I would look for Puustinen to be allowed to make the roster out of training camp in 2023-24. -Tyler Ball

Pensburgh Top 25 Under 25: #5 - Valtteri Puustinen

Valtteri Puustinen has clawed his way from a seventh-round throwaway to the doorstep of the NHL.

www.pensburgh.com

Yeah why give a player like this a better shot...

Regular season 5v5 advanced stats​

Data via Natural Stat Trick. The ranking is out of 17 forwards on the team who qualified by playing a minimum of 150 minutes.


Corsi For%: 52.10 (7th)
Goals For%: 56.82 (2nd)
xGF%: 55.11 (4th)
Scoring Chance %: 54.45 (3rd)
High Danger Scoring Chance%: 57.78 (1st)
5v5 on-ice shooting%: 9.33 (6th)
On-ice save%: 91.81 (8th)
Goals/60: 0.5
Assist/60: 1.5
Points/60: 2.0


Puustinen’s advanced metrics were routinely alongside regulars such as Sidney Crosby, Bryan Rust, Jake Guentzel and other high-impact forwards.


Not only did his preceding reputation as an offensively gifted winger make him a more intriguing prospect, but his ability to drive possession and create high-danger scoring chances consistently, at least through this sample size, shows that Puustinen can handle himself at the NHL level.

2023-24 Season in Review: Valtteri Puustinen

Valtteri Puustinen has clawed his way from a seventh-round throwaway to NHL contributor.

www.pensburgh.com

Also this is funny...2022-23 DOC's card.

Sullivan deemed him worthy of a longer look and he did well.

Here's Puustinen's after the season.

The charts posted on the Pensburgh link shows his impact defensively and offensively.


Because he was drafted in the 7th round should mean nothing. Pavelski was drafted in the 7th round too, am I saying Pavelski is a good comparison? No, just that draft status means jack shit when you've had a few years to see them play professionally - same for Drew O'Connor, he wasn't even drafted and has done very well for himself.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Also this is funny...2022-23 DOC's card.

Sullivan deemed him worthy of a longer look and he did well.

Here's Puustinen's after the season.

The charts posted on the Pensburgh link shows his impact defensively and offensively.


Because he was drafted in the 7th round should mean nothing. Pavelski was drafted in the 7th round too, am I saying Pavelski is a good comparison? No, just that draft status means jack shit when you've had a few years to see them play professionally - same for Drew O'Connor, he wasn't even drafted and has done very well for himself.

Those charts clearly show why DOC earned a look and Puustinen is in a logjam.

DOC had zero help from teammates and was playing in a very difficult role, whereas Puustinen played with better teammates against softer competition.

DOC produced goals at a higher rate and was a better finisher, even though Puustinen is supposed to be the more prolific scorer.

Also, DOC scored four goals in the preseason in 2023-24. If Puustinen lights it up similarly, he'll get a chance.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Couple things --
1. Points/60 is not a predictive stat. It does not hold true that a player will produce at a similar rate with increased usage. He might. Or he might trail off.

2. Puustinen is not going to supplant Rust or Rakell on the right side in the top six. He has not shown an ability to be a disruptive physical force like DOC or Bunting, and the Penguins seem to be trending in a direction where they want an aggressive forechecker and/or net presence on each of Sid and Geno's lines.

3. DOC got opportunities because his offense was the last portion of his game he needed to work on. It was the same deal years ago with Rust. Sullivan will give young guys time if they show positional versatility and situational versatility. DOC PK'd, could play any forward spot. Puustinen is a right winger who doesn't PK - he didn't even do it in WBS.

4. Puustinen doesn't have a huge age advantage on his competition. Beauvillier is 27. He's the oldest. But Puustinen is 25. Glass is 25 and has more of a track record. DOC is 26. Puljujarvi is 26. Even Blake Lizotte is 26.

5. So, the issue is who is the best fit for what the Penguins want to do? Rightly or wrongly, the Pens focus on defensive responsibility first in the bottom six. They also seem to be looking at more physicality (Lizotte plays that way, and it's why they moved Acciari to wing to free him up more).

6. Glass and Puljujarvi are former first round picks. They have pedigree. And they're still young enough to establish themselves again. Like it or not, those types of guys get longer looks than former 7th round picks.

7. None of this means Puustinen can't make the team. But he's going to have to show growth and production. And that starts with his shot. His shot takes too long to release consistently. He has flashes. But it's not enough. Puustinen is going to have show an ability to score and show a consistent defensive conscience.

The Penguins have a bunch of guys in similar circumstances - either trying to establish themselves or trying to regain their footing after a down year or two. It's up to players to seize the moment and erase all doubt, otherwise the coaches are just going to pick guys they feel can trust.

There's a f***ton of actual "stats" that back up the fact that Puustinen is a type of player this team needs more of, not less.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Those charts clearly show why DOC earned a look and Puustinen is in a logjam.

DOC had zero help from teammates and was playing in a very difficult role, whereas Puustinen played with better teammates against softer competition.

DOC produced goals at a higher rate and was a better finisher, even though Puustinen is supposed to be the more prolific scorer.

Also, DOC scored four goals in the preseason in 2023-24. If Puustinen lights it up similarly, he'll get a chance.

Doc also played with Sid's line in two of those pre-season games. 2 of those goals came with Sid vs Buffalo and the previous 2 came early in pre-season against Buffalo again while he was with Eller, those 2 Buffalo squad's were awful, they dunked on Levi with 7 goals and then beat Comrie in the first game and Drew was getting a ton of minutes in both. Both games the Penguins dressed Sid, so it wasn't like it was this year where you're playing more youth.

Puustinen meanwhile has played 1 game so far and he was on a 2nd line against a pretty stacked Buffalo team and he was with 2 rookies. In this game that was just moved, he was to start on the 3rd line. That's not really putting him in a position to prove anything.

And you're missing the point, Drew showed promise in those 46 games, so did Puustinen in his 52, both were positive play drivers in 3rd line usage mostly in both those instances. Drew got some games with Eller and Nieto, then he got some games with Sid & Rust, he scored 4 against the Sabres that pre-season. All I am saying is Puustinen deserves the same chances Drew got after his longer stint in the NHL, his 3rd call up, to build on his momentum. Puustinen has shown more quicker and is apparently not worthy of it.

Puustinen so far, he's played with Koivunen and Ponomarev against a stacked Buffalo team, the opposite of the last pre-season happened this time.

Btw, here's Drew's card from this past season.

The teammates portion is heavily weighted on how many minutes his other linemates get, so in Puustinen's case, Eller and Smith/DoC play a lot, which boosts that stat artificially, that's the one where context is important, just like Drew's this past season - its a little more accurate to say he had better usage becaues he was with Sid a lot and Malkin for some games.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

There's a f***ton of actual "stats" that back up the fact that Puustinen is a type of player this team needs more of, not less.

Yeah?

Since you and Aurora love rate stats so much, Glass, Lizotte, and Puljujarvi all had a higher goals/60 than Puustinen did last year. For a guy whose shot is supposed to be a difference maker, that's not the best look.

I have no problem if Puustinen earns a spot on the roster. But there is nothing about his performance so far that suggests he should be handed anything or that he should've come into camp already in the lineup and have to do something to lose his spot.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah?

Since you and Aurora love rate stats so much, Glass, Lizotte, and Puljujarvi all had a higher goals/60 than Puustinen did last year. For a guy whose shot is supposed to be a difference maker, that's not the best look.

I have no problem if Puustinen earns a spot on the roster. But there is nothing about his performance so far that suggests he should be handed anything or that he should've come into camp already in the lineup and have to do something to lose his spot.

Aren't you the bloke that was agitated at the fact that we were happy to see Puustinen get a chance last season? Like I give two f***s about what you have to say really, but let's go with this...

All of those players you mentioned have played a lot in the NHL, to compare their G/60 while all 3 being veterans in the NHL is comical, Puustinen was still classified as a ROOKIE last season, you f***ing walnut. Given that, there's a ton of room for growth, as in - you want to play someone like that more to see them grow their game and build on it.

Blake Lizotte also has 320 games in the NHL
Puljujarvi also has 300+ games in the NHL
Oh wait, Cody Glass has 187 games in the NHL

It stands to reason, the more games they got, the better they got at their game, some a little down turns, like Glass, but overall, yeah, they had usage that fit their game, they thrived because of it, to just throw out that stat without any context, which is typical of your shit, because you just don't like players because of idiotic reasons.

Here's a fun stat, Puustinen's G/60 was higher than Eller's. His A1/60 was second to Crosby's (I don't count Bunting in this for 21 games) and his P/60 was 5th (6th with Bunting).

ALL AS A ROOKIE.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

Sullivan made Puustinen fly the plane, and when Puustinen reminded him he was not a pilot, Sullivan went on a rant about how Jeff Carter would fly the plane when asked.

The rant went on so long that they missed the departure time and the game had to be postponed.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Here's a fun stat, Puustinen's G/60 was higher than Eller's. His A1/60 was second to Crosby's (I don't count Bunting in this for 21 games) and his P/60 was 5th (6th with Bunting).

Thank you for illustrating why rate stats suck, which is why I used goals/60 to needle you.

Rate stats do not predict future performance, nor are they an accurate barometer of someone's production over the course of the season. With that rate stat, you'd think Puustinen was one of the Pens' leading scorers. He wasn't close.

Here is the bottom line: Cody Glass, Jesse Puljujarvi, Valterri Puustinen, Blake Lizotte, Noel Acciari, Kevin Hayes, Sam Poulin, Anthony Beauvillier and everyone else in competition in the bottom six is a flawed hockey player. Some are slow. Some have no hands. Some are dumb as rocks. Some can't stay healthy. Some are undersized.

If you lose one on waivers you have 10 other mediocre players to take his place. None of them need nor deserve special consideration. Whoever plays well should get an opportunity. I've been a big Poulin backer. He's stunk. If he doesn't figure it out in the final 10 days of camp, he should be waived, and if he gets picked up, so be it.

Same goes for every single player on that list. The Penguins will not magically win the Cup because of any of those players, nor will their presence doom them to the No. 1 overall pick. They are eminently replaceable.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah?

Since you and Aurora love rate stats so much, Glass, Lizotte, and Puljujarvi all had a higher goals/60 than Puustinen did last year. For a guy whose shot is supposed to be a difference maker, that's not the best look.

I have no problem if Puustinen earns a spot on the roster. But there is nothing about his performance so far that suggests he should be handed anything or that he should've come into camp already in the lineup and have to do something to lose his spot.

How about nurturing an offensive talent, not throwing him in Wilkes to get worthless Acciari in the lineup? It's possible a player's goal scoring rate will improve after his rookie year. I've seen it happen a few times in my day...

Last I checked assists create goals too. Stop ignoring stats that contradict your narrative.

With that rate stat, you'd think Puustinen was one of the Pens' leading scorers. He wasn't close.

He scored like a top-sixer pretty much, relative to his minutes. Hard to ask for more from a rookie, ya know? Is there a reason the coaching staff should be pushing him out right now? He played 1 pre-season bloodbath game lol. Why isn't he on the top lines of these shit squads?

Maybe if they gave him 82 games instead of 50 and using Harkins over him, they woulda made the playoffs? Wouldn't have taken a lot.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Same goes for every single player on that list. The Penguins will not magically win the Cup because of any of those players, nor will their presence doom them to the No. 1 overall pick. They are eminently replaceable.

So pump up a league minimum's players numbers, boost his trade value and get something for him? Better than letting him rot in Wilkes or get picked up on waivers.