bleedblue1223
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- Jan 21, 2011
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And since he was technically brought up, the Islanders are playing 7 D, and Perunovich is still being scratched, he's just not NHL quality.
2024-2025 Blues Trade Proposals Thread.
- Thread starter simon IC
- Start date
Broberg has outplayed expectations. I didn't say that our coaching played no part, ever. What I think is clear is that he turned a corner before he ever got here. It wasn't a given he would excel, but how many were expecting him to fail?
But Broberg was playing good hockey, against top teams, on his offhand side. That's impressive even if you think advanced stats showed inflated puck luck. But the rub is where Broberg WAS vs. where Nemec IS. And also, the cost of acquisition of what Broberg was (a literal no-brainer) vs. what was suggested of a proven Kyrou for a Nemec that is currently playing his way out of NJ. This is what I don't understand. This is the rest of the story, but it just kind of gets written off.
Giving defensemen at least some form of freedom to be a rover is good, otherwise it limits what they can contribute as well as makes your offense much more predictable and easy to defend. I mean, look at how Parayko has been this year with his goal scoring, but it's definitely something that needs to be used in with a balanced and opportunistic approach.
Yeah he's played 2 games in the last 4 weeks. We aren't getting that pick back.
I think it's pretty obvious that Parayko did not have the freedom previously to be a rover because we see what he can do now that he is allowed that freedom
I blame Hitch, Yeo, Berube, and Bannister. They held him back!
BadgersandBlues
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- Jun 6, 2011
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I think you guys are crazy if you don't believe we've done well at developing defensemen. We won the Cup in 2019 with 4 of our top 5 D men in TOI 100% homegrown in AP/Parayko/Edmundson/Dunn. The only player in the top 5 who we didn't draft and develop was Jay-Bo. Our homegrown guys were the top 4 from a xGF% too.
We have developed 2nd, 3rd, and 5th round picks into top 4 NHL D-men. That's crazy good. We have gotten reasonable contributions from 5-7th round picks recently in Kessel and Tucker.
Perhaps this is an expectations issue. We haven't taken a D in the first round (Before Lindstein/Jiricek) since 2012, which was Jordan Schmaltz. 2012! We did take four in a row with Johnson/Cole/AP/Runblad, and for the most part we did develop those guys well. Johnson has played 1k+ games and counting. Cole had strong results for us before we moved him and he's now closing in on 900 games. AP is imo a HoF. Runblad and Schmaltz flamed out - it happens.
The thing I see for the most part is that guys who went on to other teams for whatever reason - and there's usually been a good reason we gave up on them - have had better results in bigger roles. That's nice and all, but they weren't going to have those roles on this team - we generally had better players that were blocking them, as we were in our competitive Cup window for most of the 2010's. Jax and Jay-Bo were blocking Cole. In the case of Edmundson, we didn't see eye to eye on contract value and went through a brutal Arb, and Dunn we chose to give up over Tarasenko, who ended up having a career year after we kept him and then got flipped for what is now the pick that got us Lindstein.
One final note - Mikkola still blows. He's just been paired with one of the best PMD in the league the last few years in Montour who did all the heavy lifting on puck transition. Now that he's playing with Kulikov they have had way worse results as a pairing. Don't pine for Niko Mikkola fellas.
We have developed 2nd, 3rd, and 5th round picks into top 4 NHL D-men. That's crazy good. We have gotten reasonable contributions from 5-7th round picks recently in Kessel and Tucker.
Perhaps this is an expectations issue. We haven't taken a D in the first round (Before Lindstein/Jiricek) since 2012, which was Jordan Schmaltz. 2012! We did take four in a row with Johnson/Cole/AP/Runblad, and for the most part we did develop those guys well. Johnson has played 1k+ games and counting. Cole had strong results for us before we moved him and he's now closing in on 900 games. AP is imo a HoF. Runblad and Schmaltz flamed out - it happens.
The thing I see for the most part is that guys who went on to other teams for whatever reason - and there's usually been a good reason we gave up on them - have had better results in bigger roles. That's nice and all, but they weren't going to have those roles on this team - we generally had better players that were blocking them, as we were in our competitive Cup window for most of the 2010's. Jax and Jay-Bo were blocking Cole. In the case of Edmundson, we didn't see eye to eye on contract value and went through a brutal Arb, and Dunn we chose to give up over Tarasenko, who ended up having a career year after we kept him and then got flipped for what is now the pick that got us Lindstein.
One final note - Mikkola still blows. He's just been paired with one of the best PMD in the league the last few years in Montour who did all the heavy lifting on puck transition. Now that he's playing with Kulikov they have had way worse results as a pairing. Don't pine for Niko Mikkola fellas.
Brian39
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- Apr 24, 2014
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Just to add on to this regarding Eddy, I just don't see a guy that improved when he left. I thought our organization undervalued him a bit and I argued way back that we played too much hardball with him in negotiations. I think we could have taken a different path with him, but none of my issues were about his development as a player. He had a couple nice seasons with us as a middle-of-the-lineup D man and was a good compliment to Petro when they were paired together.
After leaving, Eddy has had a couple really nice seasons as the #4 D man when he plays with a partner who excels at moving/skating the puck up ice. He's also had multiple seasons where he hasn't been very good. He still doesn't produce much offense, he still has trouble staying in the lineup, he still gives the puck away too much, he's still physical, he still blocks shots, and his possession numbers haven't improved from his time here. I see the same guy he was when he was here.
I don't see a leap in development or a big improvement when he left. I just see other teams valuing the same guy we had more than we did. And while I disagree with our valuation of him, I don't see anything to suggest that we didn't effectively develop him. We developed him into a a guy who can be an effective (albeit flawed) #4 defensive D man in the right situation. That's a good outcome for a 2nd round pick and he did that for us on the way to a Cup in his mid-20s. And then he's continued to be that (flaws included) through his late 20s and early 30s. I very much view Eddy as a successfully developed D man.
Completely disagree on Mikkola though. He genuinely took a big step forward in Florida and has had a nice season this year. He's 4th in TOI and ATOI for a contender and has been effective. He has already reached career-bests in goals and assists. He is 6 shots away from a career best in shots, is 3rd on the team (and 2nd among D) in +/-, is 8th on the team (and 2nd among D) in expected +/-, and is putting up the best possession numbers of his career. He's still not a perfect D man and like Eddy will never be more than a #4 who supports a good partner. But he has been way more effective in that role for Florida than he was here and this is the 2nd year where that is true. We can debate how much is him and how much is Florida's system/team. But I very much disagree that he's been bad this year.
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ezcreepin
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- Dec 5, 2016
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Again, I think there might be some misinterpretation into what Doug is saying. I think it's pretty widely understood around here what a stop gap refers to when talking about a player, so I don't think it's super necessary to go into that bit. As far as what a hockey trade is, I think there is an argument that a hockey trade can mean trading a significant or core player between two teams ie the Erik Johnson-Stewart/Shattenkirk trade. But I think Armstrong also views a hockey trade as both sides benefitting in the immediate future as opposed to trading a player for prospects or picks. The reason I believe this is because he considered the Coyle-Mittelstadt trade to be a hockey trade despite Coyle being 33 (he's also signed for this year and next). With all that being said, I think it's clear that Doug was not interested right now in trading assets in picks and prospects for a player and/or stop gap for right now, an assertion I would hope you would agree with?
I guess what I take issue with is Doug not wanting to make a hockey trade. I feel that if you've been watching since Army took over, then you would believe that he would make a hockey trade if he felt it helped the team. I think if he wanted someone like Dobson, Nemec, or Clarke, he would have absolutely inquired about them and then at that point it's a matter of are they available or will you pay the price for them. No matter what the answer to that question is, it's very clear that either 1) None of them were available right now or 2) No one in the league was willing to pay the price for them. So to reiterate my point, I take issue with you saying that he wasn't willing to make a hockey trade during the deadline because there doesn't seem to be any evidence at all that this is the case, I don't think he was concerned whether we make the playoffs or not, but rather how we continued to play, and (this is just my nitpick here) I think the view that you should either buy hard or sell hard when you're middle of the pack is sort of a bad way to view any team in general.
We don't have to get too much into this because this is going to be difference of opinion, but I think that if this team is playing pretty well but not positioned to make a run or it's not clear if they will or won't make the playoffs, then to me it's foolish to sell off players like Schenn, Buch, and to a lesser extent Faulk and Leddy when they are the ones helping and guiding the younger players into what it means to be a pro and how to handle the pro game. For example, you take a look at Ottawa and Buffalo and see what they do each year and during the deadline and it's nearly the same thing every year - play competitive for a few months, have a rough stretch where you're out of the playoffs and spiraling, sell off valuable players for prospects and picks, draft a shit load of times each year (and draft quality at that), neglect to surround the young players coming in with good veteran leaders as opposed to letting the young players to struggle, and rinse and repeat. That, in my view, seems like what you're advocating for and I'm completely opposed to it.
Over the last 15 years or so, we've honestly been pretty successful at drafting big defensive defensemen. It's just that those aren't a very valuable commodity. Edmundson makes $3.8, Mikkola makes $2.5, Hakanpaa makes $1.5. They're guys that teams like to have, partially because they're cost-controlled, but they rarely want to pay anything substantial to acquire them. Throw Kessel and Tucker onto that pile: they're probably more valuable to us right now than they would be to anyone else.
It's the offensive defenseman that we've been fairly miserable at drafting. Dunn and Walman are both good picks, but we couldn't find a place for them because of reasons explained elsewhere. I do think they would both be thriving right now under Monty's system. Aside from them? Vannelli, Schmaltz, Perunovich, Noel, and even Rundblad all fizzled out here or elsewhere.
It seems like Ralph, Burns, Lindstein, and Loof are on the defensive defenseman path. Jiricek and Fischer both (I think) have the potential to be Parayko-esque unicorns that can be dominant at both ends of the ice, though I doubt either reach Colt-55's level.
It's the offensive defenseman that we've been fairly miserable at drafting. Dunn and Walman are both good picks, but we couldn't find a place for them because of reasons explained elsewhere. I do think they would both be thriving right now under Monty's system. Aside from them? Vannelli, Schmaltz, Perunovich, Noel, and even Rundblad all fizzled out here or elsewhere.
It seems like Ralph, Burns, Lindstein, and Loof are on the defensive defenseman path. Jiricek and Fischer both (I think) have the potential to be Parayko-esque unicorns that can be dominant at both ends of the ice, though I doubt either reach Colt-55's level.
BadgersandBlues
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- Jun 6, 2011
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I agree with your first paragraph, but not so much your second.
Finding a quality offensive defenseman who doesn't give back just as much as they generate is probably the hardest position to fill in the NHL. It's even harder then 1C, b/c you can have different types of 1Cs - the Bergeron 70ish point guy who's a Selke winner, or the McDavid/MacKinnon types who use speed and puck skills to elevate everyone around them, or even the Matthews/Thompsen who carry the puck up the ice and then wire it home themselves.
Most offensively gifted players see the ice a little different from their coach, and they also have that desire to push the pace/puck forward - which can get them into major trouble, not because they are being careless, but because making the jump from even the AHL to the NHL is extremly difficult, especially at a young age. What works at lower levels doesn't work at higher ones, and you won't learn that until you make the mistake in person - and if the team is trying to win games, they aren't really allowed to do that. Brandt Clarke seems like a completely reasonable 22 year old D-man, and yet LA is looking to move him - because they feel the pressure to win now due to the ages of their former star players in Kopitar and Doughty.
I think in a different universe, Dunn would have thrived here - but we were trying to win a Cup, and so we (rightfully) kept him on a shorter, more sheltered leash. Most other Cup contenders already have the guy who can provide offense AND defense, so your job is to not f*** it up when that guy is off the ice.
