2024-2025 Blues Trade Proposals Thread.

[BadgersandBlues]

Nemec looks lost atm. I don't think he understands Keefe's system at all. From what I understand the prior system allowed him to play way more like a rover and use his instincts, Keefe wants everyone to play a very disciplined game and he's having trouble adjusting.

I'd still trade for him, but he's slipping down the ranks at this point. I still think Dobson with a reasonable extension is our best bet.

 

[Reality Czech]

You are straw-manning me so hard dude. If you disagree, that's fine, but there's no reason to invent a version of what I said that makes you feel better about it. Neither of Matt Luff or Calen Addison are bottom-6ers, and I think you know that, but it's not even the point. If you disagree that the quality of our AHL squad matters, good on ya, but I think you're wrong.

As for your second point, we were one of three teams league-wide to do nothing last week: us, Calgary, and Vancouver. Both us and VAN made AHL transactions (they traded for Khaira). I agree that none of those rosters are perfect, but let's not pretend like Doug was part of the majority last week. "Plenty of teams"... come on man.

The fact that you're following ahl trades this closely tells me you're way too invested in this. If Army had made one minor ahl trade would that make such a big difference to you?

It's easy to see why he didn't make any NHL trades. Not only because the prices were so absurd, but who are you taking out of the lineup? Everyone has been playing pretty well lately. Fans want an upgrade on Sundqvist but I don't see any guys who were traded that would have made a big difference (unless we were giving up quality picks/prospects, which doesn't seem to make sense right now). Besides, that line is just starting to hit its stride, so I don't really see a reason to mess with it right now.

Since last summer, Army has added Broberg, Holloway, Faksa, Suter, Joseph, Fowler but I guess he needed to do something Friday as well to show he cares about improving the team.

 

[sfvega]

He's in a similar situation as David Jiricek and Broberg before we got him. I think right now we are riding the high of Broberg and thinking most top prospects just need a change of scenery, but plenty of those guys do genuinely flop. Boqvist was a recent top 10 pick that flopped, Drysdale and Korchinski are guys that aren't developing, Juolevi was another top pick that busted.

This is why any suggestion of Kyrou for Mercer+Nemec is just a bad idea. Both of those guys are either trending down or stagnating. Similar to Broberg, Nemec or those guys can make sense, but only when the value is cheap.

The key is finding the guys that are under-utilized and have more to give. Broberg played on his off-side, never got much consistency, so you could see where there was potential. Or finding a guy like Dunn when he was here, where for whatever reason, he just couldn't get the role he was meant for, despite pretty decent stats.

I'd absolutely still take the risk on a guy like Nemec, but I still wouldn't be offering up Kyrou or Dvorsky or Snuggerud. The benefit that we have, we have a clear role for an offensive minded defenseman. We have a Parayko pair to shelter them during 5v5, and we have a wide open path for a PP QB. That's hard to have on a contending team. I think at the draft, things can get a bit more interesting with our 1st round pick, assuming it's in that 12-16 range, where it carries value, but the prospect will be a lot easier to trade.

I'm definitely not trading Kyrou for an unknown. It's also worth noting that most of Broberg's development came from Edmonton. Our in-house defenseman development has had its own myriad of issues. We need a similar player to Broberg, or a finished product like Dobson, because I'm not certain I trust our staff to take someone with warts and turn them into a beast. Especially not at the cost of someone who is a very productive NHL player, or one of our top prospects. If it were a Stenberg or Bolduc, and I think I'm higher on them than most here, then yeah. We have so much organizational depth at wing that we can afford to make some moves, and we can backload that with this or next year's 1st. We need a RD with potential in the worst way, and we just keep playing ourselves out of the chance to get one.

 

[BlueMed]

I'm definitely not trading Kyrou for an unknown. It's also worth noting that most of Broberg's development came from Edmonton. Our in-house defenseman development has had its own myriad of issues. We need a similar player to Broberg, or a finished product like Dobson, because I'm not certain I trust our staff to take someone with warts and turn them into a beast. Especially not at the cost of someone who is a very productive NHL player, or one of our top prospects. If it were a Stenberg or Bolduc, and I think I'm higher on them than most here, then yeah. We have so much organizational depth at wing that we can afford to make some moves, and we can backload that with this or next year's 1st. We need a RD with potential in the worst way, and we just keep playing ourselves out of the chance to get one.

Usually trust is lost rather than gained. I'm just curious what the Blues development staff has done to make you question their abilities here?

 

[sfvega]

Usually trust is lost rather than gained. I'm just curious what the Blues development staff has done to make you question their abilities here?

Our pro development has everyone leaving and playing better than they did here. Dunn especially seemed like he was jerked around here and could have been handled better.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Our pro development has everyone leaving and playing better than they did here. Dunn especially seemed like he was jerked around here and could have been handled better.

Parayko and Broberg are playing at highest level of careers. Fowler is having best season in years. Holloway is having breakout season. Kerouac has become much better all around player. Bolduc continues to get better. How much more do you need to see before that narrative is retired?

 

[BlueMed]

Our pro development has everyone leaving and playing better than they did here. Dunn especially seemed like he was jerked around here and could have been handled better.

Oh maybe I should have asked: did you mean the development staff or the coaching staff? It is possible Dunn thrived a bit more in Seattle in their fast-paced system rather than Berube's defense, hard-nosed style that was demanded here. The same can probably be said for a guy like Walman, I suppose. I do believe Monty's philosophies will be a bit more skilled-based than Berube's.

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

Usually trust is lost rather than gained. I'm just curious what the Blues development staff has done to make you question their abilities here?

I can see what he is saying at least on defense; Outside of Pie, and Colt.

Johnson
Cole
Dunn
Edmundson
Walman
Mikkola
Maybe Scotty P (Big Maybe)

We either have trouble developing while here (Mikkola, Walman, Maybe Scotty). Trouble allowing them to find a bigger role and/or we have trouble keeping them happy enough to want to stay(Cole, Edmundson). Dunn fits that a bit as well then we didn’t prioritize keeping him.

Also we trade one for a power forward, and offensive defenseman instead of a freaking center.

Seems like a lot of misses? Do we just have crappy luck with developing defenseman?

 

[sfvega]

Parayko and Broberg are playing at highest level of careers. Fowler is having best season in years. Holloway is having breakout season. Kerouac has become much better all around player. Bolduc continues to get better. How much more do you need to see before that narrative is retired?

Context, brother. We're talking about DEFENSEMEN. Parayko was a prospect 10 years ago. Broberg was playing at a high level last postseason on his off hand. Fowler was in arguably the worst defensive team in the Ducks in recent years to being paired up with a guy who is a top 10/15 defenseman in the league.

What about Scandella? What about Faulk? What about Krug? What about Dunn? What about Walman? What about Mikkola? It's so silly that when you criticize the Blues on something, people think that you're just being an asshole. Like, we've talked about shortcomings developing defensemen on this board before. It's not this crazy idea.

 

[sfvega]

I can see what he is saying at least on defense; Outside of Pie, and Colt.

Johnson
Cole
Dunn
Edmundson
Walman
Mikkola
Maybe Scotty P (Big Maybe)

We either have trouble developing while here (Mikkola, Walman, Maybe Scotty). Trouble allowing them to find a bigger role and/or we have trouble keeping them happy enough to want to stay(Cole, Edmundson). Dunn fits that a bit as well then we didn’t prioritize keeping him.

Also we trade one for a power forward, and offensive defenseman instead of a freaking center.

Seems like a lot of misses? Do we just have crappy luck with developing defenseman?

We are outstanding at developing forwards and goaltenders. Defensemen has been different. And some of that is the fact that we haven't drafted many highly, prioritizing forwards given our draft spots. But A) We have had issues with some player development once guys got to the pros that wasn't on given prospects and B) It doesn't inspire confidence in the ability of us to deliver an impact top 4 defenseman (especially out of someone who has warts like the aforementioned Nemec) when we aren't doing it regularly.

Which isn't to say we CAN'T do it. But do we have the confidence in our staff to trade someone who is more surefire at the NHL level for a defenseman who needs a lot of work.

 

[BlueMed]

I can see what he is saying at least on defense; Outside of Pie, and Colt.

Johnson
Cole
Dunn
Edmundson
Walman
Mikkola
Maybe Scotty P (Big Maybe)

We either have trouble developing while here (Mikkola, Walman, Maybe Scotty). Trouble allowing them to find a bigger role and/or we have trouble keeping them happy enough to want to stay(Cole, Edmundson). Dunn fits that a bit as well then we didn’t prioritize keeping him.

Also we trade one for a power forward, and offensive defenseman instead of a freaking center.

Seems like a lot of misses? Do we just have crappy luck with developing defenseman?

Looking at this list here, the only "miss" I see is Erik Johnson. As far as him not reaching his potential, I can't attribute that to the entire Blues development staff (which I believe looks a bit different today than it did 19 years ago). EJ played out of his mind during his pre-draft season and had the ACL injury during his D+3 year (entirely his own fault). It's possible he matured very early and got a head start on his pears.

As far as the rest of those defensemen go, I'd say they've had successful careers. I'm not sure what your expectations were for each of them individually, but none of the other guys were first round draft picks. To have played the number of games they each played was remarkable. Cole and Edmundson were traded as there were no reports I'm aware of indicating that they didn't want to stay. With Mikkola, you could argue that he was put in too large of a role here on the top pairing. Dunn and Walman succeeded moreso on other teams that matched their offensive strengths. Scotty P is still figuring it out. I have no complaints here.

 

[BlueMed]

Context, brother. We're talking about DEFENSEMEN. Parayko was a prospect 10 years ago. Broberg was playing at a high level last postseason on his off hand. Fowler was in arguably the worst defensive team in the Ducks in recent years to being paired up with a guy who is a top 10/15 defenseman in the league.

What about Scandella? What about Faulk? What about Krug? What about Dunn? What about Walman? What about Mikkola? It's so silly that when you criticize the Blues on something, people think that you're just being an asshole. Like, we've talked about shortcomings developing defensemen on this board before. It's not this crazy idea.

Wait, we traded for Scandella, Faulk, and Krug once those players were mature (i.e. finished developing). The coaching staff has tried to utilize those players in various ways to the best of their abilities. The Blues legitimately developed Dunn, Mikkola, and Walman into what they are but they found success on other teams because of a difference in system/style. It just wasn't a great fit here for them, and that's perfectly okay.

 

[bleedblue1223]

We have certainly done a great job at identifying talented defensemen in the drafted, no debate about that one. Our issue in development is simply what other contenders deal with, it's hard to develop goalies and defensemen when you are in a win now mode. With forwards, it's easy to bring them along slowly or shelter them. With defense, there is just the 3rd pair or you are being thrust into big time minutes and situations. If you are a young offensive guy on a good team, there is likely a better PP QB already on the roster. If you can hack it in the playoffs, you might miss a chance of growing in a bigger role. Depending on the guys ahead of you, you might not get a chance on your preferred side.

A lot of the those reasons are why Dunn, Walman, and Cole didn't work here. Edmundson was used to get Faulk.

 

[sfvega]

Wait, we traded for Scandella, Faulk, and Krug once those players were mature (i.e. finished developing). The coaching staff has tried to utilize those players in various ways to the best of their abilities.

I'm giving him shit for the Fowler comment.

The Blues legitimately developed Dunn, Mikkola, and Walman into what they are but they found success on other teams because of a difference in system/style. It just wasn't a great fit here for them, and that's perfectly okay.

Was it the different system or did they just put Dunn on the power play and left him alone? Can we just cut the shit? If we can say how well the Blues are doing with Kyrou and Thomas and Bolduc and Neighbours, can we just as easily say that they kinda jerked Dunn around? It's not negativity to acknowledge something that wasn't great. I feel like any time I acknowledge anything that isn't positive, I have two people hitting reply. Which I get in a reasonable discourse, but I can acknowledge the up as well. It's not just doomposting. But the other half of the coin doesn't seem to...

 

[BlueMed]

Was it the different system or did they just put Dunn on the power play and left him alone? Can we just cut the shit? If we can say how well the Blues are doing with Kyrou and Thomas and Bolduc and Neighbours, can we just as easily say that they kinda jerked Dunn around? It's not negativity to acknowledge something that wasn't great. I feel like any time I acknowledge anything that isn't positive, I have two people hitting reply. Which I get in a reasonable discourse, but I can acknowledge the up as well. It's not just doomposting. But the other half of the coin doesn't seem to...

I'm not pushing back against negativity. I was questioning and giving my honest opinion on how Dunn was utilized here vs in Seattle. I personally would have rather kept him over signing Krug, but I'm not sure what you mean by left him alone or jerked him around..

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Context, brother. We're talking about DEFENSEMEN. Parayko was a prospect 10 years ago. Broberg was playing at a high level last postseason on his off hand. Fowler was in arguably the worst defensive team in the Ducks in recent years to being paired up with a guy who is a top 10/15 defenseman in the league.

What about Scandella? What about Faulk? What about Krug? What about Dunn? What about Walman? What about Mikkola? It's so silly that when you criticize the Blues on something, people think that you're just being an asshole. Like, we've talked about shortcomings developing defensemen on this board before. It's not this crazy idea.

There is no evidence our current staff is bad at developing defensemen. The guys everyone complains about were under MVR who sucked. This year all our d have taken big steps forward except kessel. How can you blame staff for literally getting best out of almost everyone?

 

[simon IC]

Nemec looks lost atm. I don't think he understands Keefe's system at all. From what I understand the prior system allowed him to play way more like a rover and use his instincts, Keefe wants everyone to play a very disciplined game and he's having trouble adjusting.

I'd still trade for him, but he's slipping down the ranks at this point. I still think Dobson with a reasonable extension is our best bet.

Agreed. I have reservations about his defensive game. The bolded part throws huge red flags for me. Not everyone will agree, but I don't like a player or a system that allows for that. But that's just me.

 

[sfvega]

There is no evidence our current staff is bad at developing defensemen. The guys everyone complains about were under MVR who sucked. This year all our d have taken big steps forward except kessel. How can you blame staff for literally getting best out of almost everyone?

Broberg again was playing very, very well already on his off-hand in more important games than now, playing well basically from the minute he arrived here while being a very late addition due to the timing of the deal. Fowler is playing with a 10x better pairing than he did in Anaheim the past 2 years. His metrics will also go down with Parayko out, which I assume you coincidentally won't attribute to our pro development.

Tell me about Bolduc's development at D again, though.

 

[BlueMed]

Broberg again was playing very, very well already on his off-hand in more important games than now, playing well basically from the minute he arrived here while being a very late addition due to the timing of the deal. Fowler is playing with a 10x better pairing than he did in Anaheim the past 2 years. His metrics will also go down with Parayko out, which I assume you coincidentally won't attribute to our pro development.

Tell me about Bolduc's development at D again, though.

I'm a little confused as to why Broberg and Fowler are even brought up in this when both of those players developed before they even got here.

 

[sfvega]

I'm a little confused as to why Broberg and Fowler are even brought up in this when both of those players developed before they even got here.

BlueMed, I've been waiting hours to find common ground with you. We did it, buddy!

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Broberg again was playing very, very well already on his off-hand in more important games than now, playing well basically from the minute he arrived here while being a very late addition due to the timing of the deal. Fowler is playing with a 10x better pairing than he did in Anaheim the past 2 years. His metrics will also go down with Parayko out, which I assume you coincidentally won't attribute to our pro development.

Tell me about Bolduc's development at D again, though.

If by development, you mean from time they are drafted until they reach NHL we have done good job for past decade. Guys like Dunn and Mikko and were not 1st rounders and became NHL regulars. If you mean from time they enter NHL, that falls on coaching staff to help improve players and our current group has been doing fine job with both kids and vets in getting most out of the D.

Are you just screaming at clouds or what is the problem? We already fired MVR for being crappy coach and things have improved since quite a bit.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Also, Mikkola improved a bit after he was traded, but it’s not like he became Bobby Orr. He’s essentially the same player he’s always been, with the benefit of a few more seasons of experience. Same with Joel Edmundson; he didn’t really get better after going to Carolina. Ironically, I think part of the confusion here is that they keep getting signed/traded to playoff teams because… they are good defensive defensemen, which is what we’re good at identifying.

 

[sfvega]

If by development, you mean from time they are drafted until they reach NHL we have done good job for past decade. Guys like Dunn and Mikko and were not 1st rounders and became NHL regulars. If you mean from time they enter NHL, that falls on coaching staff to help improve players and our current group has been doing fine job with both kids and vets in getting most out of the D.

Are you just screaming at clouds or what is the problem? We already fired MVR for being crappy coach and things have improved since quite a bit.

Yes, I'm screaming at the clouds. My original post was that I wasn't comfortable moving a proven, valuable piece to take on Nemec because I don't have the confidence level in our ability to develop a young defenseman who has the amount of issues he does at the moment. How does Colton Parayko's play or Cam Fowler's play point to our ability to guide a young defenseman? You say that MVR is gone, so what young defenseman have we developed that has taken these strides to where I should have confidence in them? Is it Broberg? Because we were all ecstatic to have him on board in the offseason coming off a strong playoffs again on his off hand, so I wouldn't say that him and Nemec are comparable in that way at all.

If we're talking young defensemen development, the play of guys in their 30s isn't a strong argument.

 

[A Real Barn Burner]

Looking at this list here, the only "miss" I see is Erik Johnson. As far as him not reaching his potential, I can't attribute that to the entire Blues development staff (which I believe looks a bit different today than it did 19 years ago). EJ played out of his mind during his pre-draft season and had the ACL injury during his D+3 year (entirely his own fault). It's possible he matured very early and got a head start on his pears.

As far as the rest of those defensemen go, I'd say they've had successful careers. I'm not sure what your expectations were for each of them individually, but none of the other guys were first round draft picks. To have played the number of games they each played was remarkable. Cole and Edmundson were traded as there were no reports I'm aware of indicating that they didn't want to stay. With Mikkola, you could argue that he was put in too large of a role here on the top pairing. Dunn and Walman succeeded moreso on other teams that matched their offensive strengths. Scotty P is still figuring it out. I have no complaints here.

Mostly agree with you assessment other than a few thing below. Not a hill die on but to elobarate more; my overall point was out track record with developing defensemen isn’t great and the number of defensemen who have went on to do better elsewhere is concerning. I not just saying how good they are but also wether we retained them long term. It’s nuanced and I’m having trouble expressing it.

Cole requested a trade. Don’t remember all the specifics but something like he wanted a bigger role and more opportunity than he was getting here. Edmundson the team burned the bridge taking him to arbitration he wasn’t going to resign so we traded him for Faulk.

Dunn, Walman, Mikkola all doing better on other teams is directly related to development. We failed somewhere there, wether it is system error or coaching. If those guys couldn’t prosper in our system why did we draft them? Why didn’t we trade them sooner when they had more value like Runbald? Lots of questions….

When we talk aboudy developing future defenseman like Lindstien, Jireck, and the others how many will join those above on that list. We need to figure it out but I have no suggestion for a solution. I see @sfvega’s point….going for a Dobson or some other young established defenseman might be a better play than trying to draft and mold a defenseman to fit our style, or trade for a project like Nemec. Assuming whoever we trade for is a fit for our system. I want Nemec but he makes a good point.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Yes, I'm screaming at the clouds. My original post was that I wasn't comfortable moving a proven, valuable piece to take on Nemec because I don't have the confidence level in our ability to develop a young defenseman who has the amount of issues he does at the moment. How does Colton Parayko's play or Cam Fowler's play point to our ability to guide a young defenseman? You say that MVR is gone, so what young defenseman have we developed that has taken these strides to where I should have confidence in them? Is it Broberg? Because we were all ecstatic to have him on board in the offseason coming off a strong playoffs again on his off hand, so I wouldn't say that him and Nemec are comparable in that way at all.

If we're talking young defensemen development, the play of guys in their 30s isn't a strong argument.

I don't know how we can just write off Broberg's development here. Now, I'm not saying our coaching staff worked magic on him, but you are way overrating what he did in the playoffs. His actual results were very good, but his xGF% was 34.87%. He had a tremendous amount of puck luck in the playoffs, and this season his expected results are solidly over 50%. To say that it was basically a given that Broberg would excel like he has in a 20+ minute role is kind of silly.

Now, I don't think our coaches turned him around, I think he just needed the right situation, but to say our development played no part is also kind of silly.