2024-2025 Blues Trade Proposals Thread.

[bleedblue1223]

You’re ignoring most of what I’ve written and instead focused on an argument that I haven’t made.

Nobody’s claiming that 80 on the chart is some defensive ability rating, as if this is a video game. What that number does tell us that there’s not a whole lot more Kyrou can do to prevent opposing teams from creating offensive chances while he’s on the ice this season.

Kyrou in previous seasons was around the 15th percentile. He’s now in the 80th percentile. Are we to believe that he somehow a player once the 15th percentile is now able to accomplish this without improvement in defensive ability?

He’s likely not better than 80 percent of NHLers, but that was never the argument, and that’s what you’ve locked in on for some reason. But overall given the whole package that he’s brought the ice this season, he’s far more valuable than players that receive much less criticism.

Let’s phrase it this way. At what point can we admit that Kyrou has value in his ability to preventing the other team from scoring? That is the entire point of the graph (not whatever you’re suggesting). Even admitting that seems to be too much for some Blues fans.

What do you think I'm ignoring? I respond to it, but it's probably because I don't think whatever it was was important or it's something I agree with and don't see the point in discussing it.

What I'm focusing on is anytime someone suggests and links possession metrics, as in suppressing scoring chances or xGA, to defensive ability. I believe you've done that in multiple posts as a way to argue that Kyrou has improved defensively. At best they are loosely linked, but still largely driven by usage, role, teammates, opponents, and/or system. Once you normalize a dataset and compare players with similar usage and roles, you can better make some of those arguments. I'd hope we'd agree that Pietrangelo was always better defensively than Shattenkirk and that Thomas is a better defensive player than Kyrou.

Look, there's no real point in keeping this going, since we broadly agree that Kyrou has improved his game this season. It's always been my position that Kyrou never has to be good defensively, he just has to get to a level that Tarasenko was at for us. He's done that, I'm happy with him, I think most here are happy with him.

What do you think my argument has been?

 

[Majorityof1]

I find it mildly humorous that the only person in the advanced stats vs eye-test debate on Kyrou's defensive ability who had commented on things Kyrou actually does well/poorly (you know, the eye-test) is the advanced stats user. The other 2 just attack the stats and appeal to authority.

 

[BleedBlue14]

Army is a little guilty of speaking out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he talks about chipping away at the core (alluding via trading them). On the other hand, he is all about a retool instead of a rebuild.

Thomas, Kyrou, Holloway, Schenn, Buchnevich, Broberg, Parayko, and Binnington are the core players.

It makes zero sense to trade Holloway and Broberg.

Schenn might have a little value but I’m comfortable with the opinion that Army highly overrates him.

Parayko is the only top 4 RHD and playing his best hockey.

He just extended Buch.

Maybe Army views Faulk in the “core” and his tenure with the Blues is on the line. Even if that’s true, the return isn’t going to be that much.

I don’t think Binnington has played bad enough to warrant being traded based on performance.

That leaves Thomas and Kyrou.

Trading one would certainly shake up the roster. I know Thomas is always thought of as untouchable. Is he? Everyone understands he’s the team’s best C. I think some teams might be willing to overpay though.

Would you trade Thomas to Buffalo for a top 5 pick, + Byrum, + Helenius?

I would go for an overpay like that. I don’t see Army making him available though.

Kyrou would have a high return but I think the odds of teams overpaying for him compared to Thomas are slim.

Thomas should be either the first or the last player traded.

He is literally the centerpiece of what you’re building around. I question whether or not our whole core around that age range is good enough and it’s going to need to be supplemented with a RHD in that age range. But regardless 23-26 is our core age range. Do you really want to shift the core age range to 18-20? What comes with that is 5+ years of trying to get back to where we are now and hoping for the next step. It’s not likely that either Dvorsky or Helenius are 200ft PPG matchup centers like Thomas has turned in to.

It’s amazing how the thoughts change after a mediocre 10 game stretch after returning from injury in which it’s very visible Thomas is gripping the shit out of the stick right now.