2024-2025 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread.

[STL fan in MN]

I am curious, how would people here classify a successful re-whatever? Is it Cup or bust? Is it regular season success that at a minimum results in 2nd and 3rd round appearances? If we hit the Backes era level of success, is that successful in your eyes?

Cup or bust for me. You play to win! I personally would be fine with a couple more years of pain and also fine with the pain being worse (picking around 5th, not 10-16) but it appears Stillman and Army don’t believe Blues fans as a whole will support that for them to remain a viable business. And based on some of the comments and responses here, I think they’re unfortunately probably right.

That said, I am a believer in a roster that’s built more on depth than 1-2 superstars…BUT even if you don’t have any likely HHOFers on your roster, you still very likely need a handful of Hall of Very Good players to have a chance at the Cup.

IMO, the Blues are trying to thread a very delicate needle. It’s possible but history shows the much more likely way to win the Cup is by bottoming out for a few years and accumulating top talent. For the Blues to win the Cup again, they’re probably going to have to find a way to pull off a deal similar to the ROR deal but for a #1 d-man…which almost never happens…OR…get lucky and find that elite d-man in the mid to later 1st round (or later). It’s a bold strategy, Cotton. I guess we’ll see if it pays off for them.

 

[Majorityof1]

You might also remember that earlier in the year fans were wondering how we could unload Petro because he was playing so bad until they went on a run. I think the most impactful players were O' Reilly, Binnington & the shut down pair of Bow & Parayko. Petro was not the mvp of the playoffs when we won.

The vast majority of people are idiots, doubly so on the internet. Watch, research and form your own opinion. Telling me I'm wrong because fans online disagreed with me makes me feel really good about my take

 

[Blueswin]

Here is such an article but to be fair Petro was not the only one named. Also if OReilly didn't win the mvp it would have went to Binnington. St. Louis Blues: Warning! Trade Fever Epidemic Spreads Across St. Louis Area

 

[Celtic Note]

Here is such an article but to be fair Petro was not the only one named. Also if OReilly didn't win the mvp it would have went to Binnington. St. Louis Blues: Warning! Trade Fever Epidemic Spreads Across St. Louis Area

If I or anyone here starts a blog can we become authority figures too? I mean Fansided isn’t exactly an expert source of knowledge.

 

[Brian39]

You might also remember that earlier in the year fans were wondering how we could unload Petro because he was playing so bad until they went on a run. I think the most impactful players were O' Reilly, Binnington & the shut down pair of Bow & Parayko. Petro was not the mvp of the playoffs when we won.

I get an argument that Bo and Parayko as a pair were more important than Petro. Not sure I agree, but I get the argument that the two of them were able to form a great shut down pair that allowed Petro to focus on driving offense.

But that doesn't mean that Petro wasn't the most important D man on the team. You can't compare the combined performance of two guys to the individual performance of one guy in order to reach the conclusion that they one guy wasn't actually as important.

FWIW, ROR won the Conn Smythe vote by a mile. He got 13 of 18 first place votes, 4 second place votes and a lone 3rd place vote. He was the only guy listed on every voters ballot. Binner finished 2nd in voting and was the only other guy to get 1st place votes. Rask got 3rd, then Petro was 4th and Parayko was 5th. Petro got 3 second place votes and 1 third place vote while Parayko got 2 second place votes and 1 third place vote.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

If I or anyone here starts a blog can we become authority figures too? I mean Fansided isn’t exactly an expert source of knowledge.

Only if you start off your sentences with some variation of "Look...." or "Here's the deal...." or "Again..." or "If you don't.......then....." or "Clearly...".

You get the idea.

 

[Xerloris]

I wonder if Petro would have stayed a lot of these opinions would differ. I can say without a shadow of a doubt, for many, many years Petro was easily our best overall player and especially come playoff time. Some of the years we didnt advance too far, usually due to lack of scoring, Pie would quietly be shutting down the teams opposing top line. I loved the guy. And i still look at our prospects and dont see anyone with quite that ceiling. To me Petro was easily a #1, and i currently have Lindstein toping out at a #2, and Jiri at a #3. Our pool still lacks a truley elite D prospect.

I guess we're going to pretend that during those years that we didn't have Hitchcock forcing every forward to play heavy 2 way hockey and that it had nothing to do with "pietrangelo shutting down the other teams top lines"?

 

[BlueDream]

I guess we're going to pretend that during those years that we didn't have Hitchcock forcing every forward to play heavy 2 way hockey and that it had nothing to do with "pietrangelo shutting down the other teams top lines"?

Lmao you have so many excuses ready to go. Have you ever given him credit for anything?

He sure has lucked his way into being one of the most accomplished defensemen in the league currently.

 

[SirPaste]

Here is such an article but to be fair Petro was not the only one named. Also if OReilly didn't win the mvp it would have went to Binnington. St. Louis Blues: Warning! Trade Fever Epidemic Spreads Across St. Louis Area

That's not an article, it's a fan blog.

 

[The Note]

I am curious, how would people here classify a successful re-whatever? Is it Cup or bust? Is it regular season success that at a minimum results in 2nd and 3rd round appearances? If we hit the Backes era level of success, is that successful in your eyes?

Cup or bust - with the caveat that hockey is random and incredibly luck based so it’s not quite that black and white. But, I think they should be aiming higher than the Backes era candidly. Those Blues teams were making the playoffs often but were inevitably done in by superior teams, and they often looked overmatched when it was happening. While it was great to be making the postseason and winning games in the regular season I never got much joy out of being roadkill for true contenders as they went on deep runs. That group went on one deep run and even that ended with a pretty convincing beating in the WCF after it took them two 7 game series to get there. I think the aims should be higher than that.

It’s been odd to me that a huge chunk of the fanbase trusts Armstrong implicitly and believes that he can thread this needle that virtually no other successful team has thread but doesn’t think he could manage a 2-3 year rebuild without becoming Buffalo or Ottawa. Regardless of how I or others feel though, they’re committed to this path. They really need Jiricek and Dvorsky to hit their absolute ceilings for this to work out, IMO.

 

[Blueston]

I am curious, how would people here classify a successful re-whatever? Is it Cup or bust? Is it regular season success that at a minimum results in 2nd and 3rd round appearances? If we hit the Backes era level of success, is that successful in your eyes?

Obviously Cup is the ultimate goal, but I think the question is more than yes/no because it is 2-stage process. I would judge a retool/rebuild successful if it put us in position to be a legit contender who had a realistic chance at Cup across multiple seasons. Once we get to that point, where we are contenders, then the success is ultimately measured by whether we win Cup. Cup is ultimate goal so anything that doesn’t lead to Cup is not ultimate success but that feels like an extra step beyond where we are as organization.

A good “build” puts you where Stars are, for example, but once you get there you still need to be able to make moves (like ror or Matt tkachuk trades) to put team over the top. That is likely to be true regardless of whether we build deep team of really good players or bottom out and get next bedard or celebrini or whomever.

 

[Blueswin]

That's not an article, it's a fan blog.

Fair enough but it was the sentiment at the time pointed out by the blogger. I am not suggesting Petro wasn't a great player but one of many. Not elite over all the other great players. As Armstrong has said many times we have good players & we pay them like good players..no super stars. You can win without elite players if you can assemble enough great players.

 

[Celtic Note]

Only if you start off your sentences with some variation of "Look...." or "Here's the deal...." or "Again..." or "If you don't.......then....." or "Clearly...".

You get the idea.

“Here’s why” you need to believe my opinion is fact!

 

[Celtic Note]

Fair enough but it was the sentiment at the time pointed out by the blogger. I am not suggesting Petro wasn't a great player but one of many. Not elite over all the other great players. As Armstrong has said many times we have good players & we pay them like good players..no super stars. You can win without elite players if you can assemble enough great players.

Maybe a good exercise would be to outline who you believe is an elite defenseman in the NHL. If it’s not 2019 Pietrangelo, who do you feel would qualify?

Obviously Cup is the ultimate goal, but I think the question is more than yes/no because it is 2-stage process. I would judge a retool/rebuild successful if it put us in position to be a legit contender who had a realistic chance at Cup across multiple seasons. Once we get to that point, where we are contenders, then the success is ultimately measured by whether we win Cup. Cup is ultimate goal so anything that doesn’t lead to Cup is not ultimate success but that feels like an extra step beyond where we are as organization.

A good “build” puts you where Stars are, for example, but once you get there you still need to be able to make moves (like ror or Matt tkachuk trades) to put team over the top. That is likely to be true regardless of whether we build deep team of really good players or bottom out and get next bedard or celebrini or whomever.

Seems like a good set of milestones.

I will still of course analyze every move and progression along the way with an eye towards achieving a Cup, but it does seem there is some degree of tiers that form particular vantage points.

 

[Xerloris]

Lmao you have so many excuses ready to go. Have you ever given him credit for anything?

He sure has lucked his way into being one of the most accomplished defensemen in the league currently.

He's a very very good d man, well he was but apparently Vegas fans say he sucks now so who knows. The issue is that some posters here think he's the second coming, like he turned us into a defensive powerhouse all by himself and that if he was still here that he and he alone would totally fix our defense problems.

 

[TheOrganist]

Obviously Cup is the ultimate goal, but I think the question is more than yes/no because it is 2-stage process. I would judge a retool/rebuild successful if it put us in position to be a legit contender who had a realistic chance at Cup across multiple seasons. Once we get to that point, where we are contenders, then the success is ultimately measured by whether we win Cup. Cup is ultimate goal so anything that doesn’t lead to Cup is not ultimate success but that feels like an extra step beyond where we are as organization.

A good “build” puts you where Stars are, for example, but once you get there you still need to be able to make moves (like ror or Matt tkachuk trades) to put team over the top. That is likely to be true regardless of whether we build deep team of really good players or bottom out and get next bedard or celebrini or whomever.

Another good post. Some fans are basing the Cup worthiness down the road on only this core group of young roster players plus the current group of prospects. Shit is gonna change significantly and we will have ample Cap space when this team needs “next step” improvements come 2026-27.

 

[PocketNines]

You might also remember that earlier in the year fans were wondering how we could unload Petro because he was playing so bad until they went on a run. I think the most impactful players were O' Reilly, Binnington & the shut down pair of Bow & Parayko. Petro was not the mvp of the playoffs when we won.

"fans were wondering" were they. not smart ones, because any purported fans with the "get rid of this bum" take in Dec 2018 got proven a little bit wrong ... just a bit ...

you are shrewd to tab a defenseman who was healthy scratched during the Cup win year as the true key performer ... and also his partner who is the current #1 (sans any offense) on a defense everyone sees sucks ... he elevates no one ...

 

[Thallis]

I am curious, how would people here classify a successful re-whatever? Is it Cup or bust? Is it regular season success that at a minimum results in 2nd and 3rd round appearances? If we hit the Backes era level of success, is that successful in your eyes?

At minimum we would need to show we're within striking distance. That to me means beating a major favorite/cup contender straight up (no injuries to major parts of the team), having typical characteristics of a cup team's construction, and room to improve in the future after a loss deep in the playoffs. Just making the playoffs and winning a couple games or a round vs flawed teams only to get handled by a better team is not enough for me.

You might also remember that earlier in the year fans were wondering how we could unload Petro because he was playing so bad until they went on a run. I think the most impactful players were O' Reilly, Binnington & the shut down pair of Bow & Parayko. Petro was not the mvp of the playoffs when we won.

Dinguses who think physicality is the end all be all of defending, maybe. Not anyone with a clue.

 

[Blueswin]

"fans were wondering" were they. not smart ones, because any purported fans with the "get rid of this bum" take in Dec 2018 got proven a little bit wrong ... just a bit ...

you are shrewd to tab a defenseman who was healthy scratched during the Cup win year as the true key performer ... and also his partner who is the current #1 (sans any offense) on a defense everyone sees sucks ... he elevates no one ...

I bet in the same thinking that you think Petro in a number #1 in Vegas this last year.

 

[Blueston]

At minimum we would need to show we're within striking distance. That to me means beating a major favorite/cup contender straight up (no injuries to major parts of the team), having typical characteristics of a cup team's construction, and room to improve in the future after a loss deep in the playoffs. Just making the playoffs and winning a couple games or a round vs flawed teams only to get handled by a better team is not enough for me.


Dinguses who think physicality is the end all be all of defending, maybe. Not anyone with a clue.

Agreed. I’m a charter member of the “I don’t buy Petro bs about leaving bc of nmc club”, but it’s revisionist history to claim that Petro wasn’t a top 10ish (or better) d for nearly his entire time here.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

Another good post. Some fans are basing the Cup worthiness down the road on only this core group of young roster players plus the current group of prospects. Shit is gonna change significantly and we will have ample Cap space when this team needs “next step” improvements come 2026-27.

The moves equivalent to acquiring Bouwmeester, Schenn and ROR aren't being factored into it.

 

[Blueswin]

Petro was so advanced beyond any player that he finished 4th in the MVP in playoff voting & Parayko was 5th. Your point is made. Conn Smythe voting results shed interesting light on O'Reilly, Rask

 

[LetsGoBooze]

A Conn Smythe trophy is now required to be considered a #1 Dman?

If i was subjectively thinking of my loose criteria in my head for what i would consider a #1 Dman it would be something around:

Based on the fact there have been around 30 teams in the league over the last twenty years, for arguments sake, i would tighten my number all top 20 Dmen on a year to year basis are #1 Dmen.

However, i would also want a player to sustain this level of play for an extended amount of time before he is a bonefide #1 Dman. Not a one off great season. I think i would qualify a player once he accomplished this for 3+ years.

Pietrangelo hits this criteria, and won the Cup on a team when he was the best Dman on the team.

He was easily a #1D as a Blue.

 

[Blueston]

A Conn Smythe trophy is now required to be considered a #1 Dman?

If i was subjectively thinking of my loose criteria in my head for what i would consider a #1 Dman it would be something around:

Based on the fact there have been around 30 teams in the league over the last twenty years, for arguments sake, i would tighten my number all top 20 Dmen on a year to year basis are #1 Dmen.

However, i would also want a player to sustain this level of play for an extended amount of time before he is a bonefide #1 Dman. Not a one off great season. I think i would qualify a player once he accomplished this for 3+ years.

Pietrangelo hits this criteria, and won the Cup on a team when he was the best Dman on the team.

He's easily a #1D as a Blue.

How is this even a question? We can debate whether he was elite 1d, but he was clearly a 1d for almost entire tenure here. And the mechanics of his negotiation aside, we have clearly missed him and have been trying to replace him ever since he left.

 

[HighNote]

I'm just catching up here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but are we debating whether or not Pietrangelo was a 1D for us? And if he was our best D in 2019?

I mean, I think that's what I'm reading, I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding because it just seems like an easy answer....obviously he was?