Blue Jays GDT: 2023 v7 | Sat, Jul 29 | vs LAA | 3:00pm ET/12:00pm PT | Detmers vs Manoah

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Nice win despite some putrid at bats again.

Why was Richard’s pitching the 8th inning up 3-2? Isn’t that Swanson job all year? Schneider is a legit moron.
 
Wooo! nice to wake up to a nice win. You can be 4 for 20 with RISP, but just get it done when it matters. Awesome!
Yeah I mailed it in when Richards gave up the 3-3 tying homer. Glad I did cuz it went all the way till the 11th.

Good to see they won though, and Varsho finally gets a big hit.
 
Glad for Varsho with that key hit in the extras. Four hit Whit again doing great. Great job by pitching again, particularly Jackson. But this team with RISP is a train wreck. We’re winning despite the horrific hitting of Springer, Kirk, and Bichette.
 
Glad for Varsho with that key hit in the extras. Four hit Whit again doing great. Great job by pitching again, particularly Jackson. But this team with RISP is a train wreck. We’re winning despite the horrific hitting of Springer, Kirk, and Bichette.

Kirk's turning things around, at least. He's been on base 10 times in his last 3 starts.
 
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Do people still think that inning-specific relief assignments are still a thing (outside of a closer and even that's not set in stone)?

I don't think that's been a real thing for most baseball teams since... geez, gotta be getting close to 10 years ago. You use your best pitchers when they're available and the situation dictates. Bringing in a specific reliever just because it's the Xth inning is a good way to work yourself into a corner.
 
Do people still think that inning-specific relief assignments are still a thing (outside of a closer and even that's not set in stone)?

I don't think that's been a real thing for most baseball teams since... geez, gotta be getting close to 10 years ago. You use your best pitchers when they're available and the situation dictates. Bringing in a specific reliever just because it's the Xth inning is a good way to work yourself into a corner.
only team I can remember in recent memory that did this was those Royals teams that went to the WS
 
only team I can remember in recent memory that did this was those Royals teams that went to the WS

Which was 8 years ago. And Ned Yost was a notoriously curmudgeonly old school manager (look no further than his lineup construction with Alcides Escobar leading off in spite of him being kinda crap at getting on base solely because he was a slap-happy singles guy with a bit of speed and that's what history told Ned that leadoff guys were.)
 
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Which was 8 years ago. And Ned Yost was a notoriously curmudgeonly old school manager (look no further than his lineup construction with Alcides Escobar leading off in spite of him being kinda crap at getting on base solely because he was a slap-happy singles guy with a bit of speed and that's what history told Ned that leadoff guys were.)

John Gibbons was from the same school because who did he have leading off? Ben Revere.
 
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Do people still think that inning-specific relief assignments are still a thing (outside of a closer and even that's not set in stone)?

I don't think that's been a real thing for most baseball teams since... geez, gotta be getting close to 10 years ago. You use your best pitchers when they're available and the situation dictates. Bringing in a specific reliever just because it's the Xth inning is a good way to work yourself into a corner.
I'm a big fan of creative bullpen usage.

Tie game, 4th inning, opposing team loads the bases with one out. You need a long-man in that situation, but I'm going to a high-leverage guy to try to get out of the jam first. Go to your Swanson to give yourself a better chance of getting out of the jam and limit the damage, then go to your Mitch White to eat innings. It's not ideal, but at least he gets a clean start.

Traditionally, managers go straight to the long-man/mop-up guy there, even though it's a high-leverage situation, in hopes of keeping the high-leverage guy for a different high-leverage situation that may or may not come up later on.
 
John Gibbons was from the same school because who did he have leading off? Ben Revere.
To be fair, Gibbons only did that because he had tried everything else. Everyone else was either uncomfortable hitting there or struggled when they tried it (Tulo,Travis, and Donaldson in 2015 in particular, then Bautista in 2016).

Also, Escobar had a .292 OBP that year compared to Revere's .342. Revere wasn't ideal there, but it was at least defensible.
 
I'm a big fan of creative bullpen usage.

Tie game, 4th inning, opposing team loads the bases with one out. You need a long-man in that situation, but I'm going to a high-leverage guy to try to get out of the jam first. Go to your Swanson to give yourself a better chance of getting out of the jam and limit the damage, then go to your Mitch White to eat innings. It's not ideal, but at least he gets a clean start.

Traditionally, managers go straight to the long-man/mop-up guy there, even though it's a high-leverage situation, in hopes of keeping the high-leverage guy for a different high-leverage situation that may or may not come up later on.

Yep. It's like football where overly conservative coaches punt on like 4th and 2. Managers and coaches would rather make the comfortable and acceptable low-value play than make the riskier but higher ceiling one. Because if you fail doing things the way they've always been done that's not your fault. But if you do something ballsy and it backfires then you were greedy/too creative/etc)

The same thing happens with closers and it's nuts. If a closer is your best reliever (not always a given because the rigid restrictions of save situations and traditional closer usage can make a solid relief pitcher look like a great closer) then leaving him on the bench instead of using him to get out of a pre-9th jam is silly. "It's bases loaded and 1 out now and my best strikeout pitcher is the closer. but I can't use him because if we escape this inning then I might need the closer later if there's save situation in the 9th!" meanwhile you bring in a lesser pitcher, he gives up the slam, and now your closer stays on the bench because you're losing.
 
Yep. It's like football where overly conservative coaches punt on like 4th and 2. Managers and coaches would rather make the comfortable and acceptable low-value play than make the riskier but higher ceiling one. Because if you fail doing things the way they've always been done that's not your fault. But if you do something ballsy and it backfires then you were greedy/too creative/etc)

The same thing happens with closers and it's nuts. If a closer is your best reliever (not always a given because the rigid restrictions of save situations and traditional closer usage can make a solid relief pitcher look like a great closer) then leaving him on the bench instead of using him to get out of a pre-9th jam is silly. "It's bases loaded and 1 out now and my best strikeout pitcher is the closer. but I can't use him because if we escape this inning then I might need the closer later if there's save situation in the 9th!" meanwhile you bring in a lesser pitcher, he gives up the slam, and now your closer stays on the bench because you're losing.
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I am really getting excited about this team. Yes, looking a little flat at the plate especially with RISP is a concern, but I think we should be very excited about what this team can do come October.
I think it's all about Varsho. If he can play more like yesterday the team will be fine. We need him to be more than what he has been offensively speaking so far. I'd still try to acquire a DH at the deadline. You never have enough depth in playoffs anyway. Hope Jackson can keep being that good it's a nice story.
 

Exactly. Showalter could've used Britton there and probably had a better chance of getting out of it, but he kept him for the potential save situation and paid for it. And yeah, some people rightly dragged him for not using his best pitcher in the most precarious situation, but he and others also defended the decision because it wasn't save situation and that's what you're "supposed" to do.

I also know that someone's going to cite Jordan Romano's save situation vs non-save splits, but those are relatively small samples (just over and just under 100 innings respectively) and we don't know what other factors are at play (save situations are almost always coming into a clean start of the 9th. Non-save situations are more likely to be entering in high-leverage jams with baserunners and/or strong parts of the lineup queuing up.)

Generally speaking, historical evidence and analysis suggests that while on the whole closers tend to perform a bit worse in non-save situations than save situations, the difference is usually not big enough to be all that significant and not consistent enough to label players as "needing the pressure" vs "not being cut out to close" or anything else. Mariano freaking Rivera, mythologized greatest closer ever who had liquid nitrogen in his veins and exuded a field that halted cosmic entropy, had seasons where his save situation performance outdid his non-save output and vice versa. Pitchers tend towards being worse in non-save outings but it's not a given and there's no evidence that it's controllable or repeatable with confidence.







fun side note is that while the save situation and its value and necessity tends to come down on the side of staunch traditionalism, this wasn't always the case. As recently as the 1970s teams used their best relievers as "firemen" who were charged with coming into tense situations and working out of them no matter the inning or whether or not there was a statistical benchmark to mine value individual from. It wasn't until the 80s or even into the 90s (the 80s saw the dawn of league save leaders getting 30+ saves with regularity. the 90s was when that threshold was pushed to 40+) that the save statistic picked up steam and became embedded in the consciousness of the sport as important or necessary or immutable and in doing so created the idea of the rigidly structured bullpen where everyone had an inning or a job that was set and not situational. And this was after like a decade of the stat trying to gain acceptance among an unwilling fan and user-base as MLB had adopted it into its lexicon of official stats in 1969. The establishment fought the save for the better part of 10 years as newfangled and disruptive to the true way to play and measure the game until they didn't. And now it's as much a part of baseball as wins and losses, RBIs, or the way that the Yankees get to ignore park construction rules on the basis of grandfathering in a stadium built decades after the rules were enforced (which also pre-dated a major renovation of their previous stadium that should've been made to abide by the new restrictions).

For the sake of comparison, the designated hitter, the bane of staunch baseball traditionalists everywhere and responsible for ruining the game by taking the offensive nuance out of it, was adopted by the AL in 1973.

The DH is only like 3 or 4 years younger than the save. But somehow baseball people accepted the save in the decade after the DH came into existence and now treat it as a concrete pillar of baseball history while the DH has perpetually remained a newfangled abomination against the true design of the game.

EDIT: I should probably also loop in material from my favorite sister-issue to the above: the value of the save itself. Because it's always worthwhile to know that historically speaking teams have won games where they've had a save situation (up by >4 runs heading into the potentially final inning) at about a 95% pace consistently all the way back to time immemorial (or the founding of MLB, whichever came first).




Whether it was your starter pitching the whole game because bullpens were for losers or injuries, the advent of the fireman, the rise of the singular dominating closer, or the modern slightly-less-focused closer-by-committee era, the chances of you winning a game when you have a save situation in play is about the same for every size of lead you may have. the magical, mythological dominance of guys built to shut down the 9th and keep the other team on the wrong end of the result has not created an uptick in the rate at which those victories is secured.

Closers picking up saves and thus being hailed as the reason that leads are safe in the 9th is every bit as sensible a conclusion as the idea that this rock I have in my hand is preventing my house from being attacked by tigers.

NemRock.jpg
 
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