2023 NHL Entry Draft Discussion

[MS]

It's unlikely, but it's Bedard and Fantilli. I actually think the team should have done a bit more to lose a game or two, although it's quite possible it wouldn't have worked. Nothing drastic, just sit the best players a little more and ride Delia a little more in the last couple of weeks. But in general I agree with you.

To be clear, I absolutely would rather be drafting 8th. Obviously.

And there's definitely a legitimate argument that they should have played those guys a bit less and maybe they'd be drafting 8th or 9th. But I get what they did and why, and I think that they prioritized the right things.

Where I get triggered are the absolutely ludicrous never-going-to-happen suggestions about what should have been done, and the incredibly toxic thing where people set up the unrealistic as an expectation so they can have a tantrum when the reasonable happens.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

This whole post is just absurd superficial generalization.

No other teams in our region of the standings have superstar players of this calibre. Few other teams have an impetus to turn things around and win hockey games for next year. Teams Chicago and the lot don't have good players to play and don't plan on doing anything other than miss the playoffs for the next several years. Their situation has literally nothing to do with where we're at.

And your statements that NO TEAM acts like this aren't even correct. Go look at the icetime spikes for Stutzle/Sanderson etc. in Ottawa to close out the season which are even bigger than what happened here.

Bigger than Quinn Hughes playing more than anyone and EP being 4th in icetime and JT Miller being top 15 and Demko starting pretty much all games after returning.

And you think you are making a grand point that warrants this bullshit:

I'm sorry you don't like being told that you aren't applying critical thinking skills and are playing video games. But it's the truth.

We lost Benning-bros and gained you Rutherford-bros.

If I squint really hard I can tell the difference.

To be clear, I absolutely would rather be drafting 8th. Obviously.

And there's definitely a legitimate argument that they should have played those guys a bit less and maybe they'd be drafting 8th or 9th. But I get what they did and why, and I think that they prioritized the right things.

Where I get triggered are the absolutely ludicrous never-going-to-happen suggestions about what should have been done, and the incredibly toxic thing where people set up the unrealistic as an expectation so they can have a tantrum when the reasonable happens.

At least you noticed you were going so deep in to spin city that you need to clarify this.

You seem to pick the most ludicrous suggestion(s) and apply it to EVERY ARGUMENT against the bullshit strategy the management is employing. That is some lazy strawman bullshit.

Drop the idiotic "video game logic" meme already. It makes you look like a child.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Demko starting pretty much all games after returning.

Leaving aside this didn't really happen, lots of people have offered a rationale for Demko getting the majority of starts after his return and you've completely ignored it.

 

[MS]

Bigger than Quinn Hughes playing more than anyone and EP being 4th in icetime and JT Miller being top 15 and Demko starting pretty much all games after returning.

And you think you are making a grand point that warrants this bullshit:

We lost Benning-bros and gained you Rutherford-bros.

If I squint really hard I can tell the difference.


At least you noticed you were going so deep in to spin city that you need to clarify this.

You seem to pick the most ludicrous suggestion(s) and apply it to EVERY ARGUMENT against the bullshit strategy the management is employing. That is some lazy strawman bullshit.

Drop the idiotic "video game logic" meme already. It makes you look like a child.

Start thinking like a grown up. You're just on perma-tantrum about nonsense.

You're screaming NO OTHER TEAM DOES THIS when it's very easy to point to other teams doing the exact same things.

You're outright making stuff up when you're claiming things like 'Demko played pretty much every game'.

You're continually acting like there is absolutely no difference between us and the Chicago Blackhawks.

You're continually inventing video-game scenarios that would never actually happen in real life and then getting outraged when they don't happen in real life.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Start thinking like a grown up. You're just on perma-tantrum about nonsense.

You're screaming NO OTHER TEAM DOES THIS when it's very easy to point to other teams doing the exact same things.

Fantastic argument again.

Did you honestly believe Stutzla in Ottawa is the same as Hughes, Demko and Miller in Vancouver?

You honestly thought you made a solid point there? It wasnt a dishonest spin on your part? On purpose?

You're outright making stuff up when you're claiming things like 'Demko played pretty much every game'.

Obviously I dont mean he started 100% of the games. For f***s sake.

I'm glad you are dropping the façade that you are arguing from a honest position.

You're continually acting like there is absolutely no difference between us and the Chicago Blackhawks.

No Im not. You are again fighting strawmen.

You're continually inventing video-game scenarios that would never actually happen in real life and then getting outraged when they don't happen in real life.

Now you know how PoM felt for years dying on a hill defending an absurd position with dishonest argument after dishonest argument.

Ok. What video-game scenarios I have put out that don't happen in real life?

 

[MS]

Fantastic argument again.

Did you honestly believe Stutzla in Ottawa is the same as Hughes, Demko and Miller in Vancouver?

You honestly thought you made a solid point there? It wasnt a dishonest spin on your part? On purpose?

Obviously I dont mean he started 100% of the games. For f***s sake.

I'm glad you are dropping the façade that you are arguing from a honest position.


No Im not. You are again fighting strawmen.


Now you know how PoM felt for years dying on a hill defending an absurd position with dishonest argument after dishonest argument.

Ok. What video-game scenarios I have put out that don't happen in real life?

Of course Stutzle and Sanderson in Ottawa are the same as Pettersson and Hughes here. They played as much as those guys down the stretch and it was an even bigger increase on their icetime earlier in the season.

It absolutely is not a strawman to say you're acting like we're Chicago. Your literal thing the last few days has been NO OTHER TEAM DOES THIS and then referring to all the teams below us in the standings, most of which are Chicago-esque. You aren't applying an ounce of critical thinking and you're just outright ignoring that the team closest to our situation was doing literally exactly the same things with their star young players.

April TOI :

Jake Sanderson 26:47
Quinn Hughes 26:38

Tim Stutzle 23:41
Elias Pettersson 21:35

You're continually arguing 'Demko started pretty much every game' despite it being demonstrated multiple times to you that that is false. How is pointing out this nonsense 'dropping the facade that I'm arguing from an honest position'?

Nobody is attacking strawmen but you. Nobody is being intellectually dishonest but you. You're making incorrect claims and then people are shooting them down with facts.

 

[LemonSauceD]

If Carolina lost in the 1st round,

Would anyone be opposed to package J.T Miller/11th OA to Carolina for Brett Pesce, Jarvis, and their 2023 2nd/3rd round pick?

A lot of Canes fans have been suggesting wanting to make a move for Miller on their boards and I feel like this would be the type of move we should 100% go all in for.

We can then use the 5 picks we have in the top 96 to draft some players at key positions.

The value of adding a top 2 defenseman to play alongside Hughes for the next 5-7 years would completely change the dynamic of our backend. Canes have Nikishin and Morrow coming up on defense and so a couple of their current defenseman are going to have to be replaced.

 

[MS]

If Carolina lost in the 1st round,

Would anyone be opposed to package J.T Miller/11th OA to Carolina for Brett Pesce, Jarvis, and their 2023 2nd/3rd round pick?

A lot of Canes fans have been suggesting wanting to make a move for Miller on their boards and I feel like this would be the type of move we should 100% go all in for.

We can then use the 5 picks we have in the top 96 to draft some players at key positions.

The value of adding a top 2 defenseman to play alongside Hughes for the next 5-7 years would completely change the dynamic of our backend. Canes have Nikishin and Morrow coming up on defense and so a couple of their current defenseman are going to have to be replaced.

I love Pesce as a player but he's a UFA after next season, so no.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I love Pesce as a player but he's a UFA after next season, so no.

How about Slavin? Less value than Pesce but just as good. Just spitballing, I haven’t seen his contract yet.

 

[MS]

How about Slavin? Less value than Pesce but just as good. Just spitballing, I haven’t seen his contract yet.

Slavin I like even more than Pesce but he only has 2 years left and we'd be one of the teams on his M-NTC. I'd also be stunned if Carolina even thought about trading him.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Of course Stutzle and Sanderson in Ottawa are the same as Pettersson and Hughes here. They played as much as those guys down the stretch and it was an even bigger increase on their icetime earlier in the season.

It absolutely is not a strawman to say you're acting like we're Chicago. Your literal thing the last few days has been NO OTHER TEAM DOES THIS and then referring to all the teams below us in the standings, most of which are Chicago-esque. You aren't applying an ounce of critical thinking and you're just outright ignoring that the team closest to our situation was doing literally exactly the same things with their star young players.

April TOI :

Jake Sanderson 26:47
Quinn Hughes 26:38

Tim Stutzle 23:41
Elias Pettersson 21:35

You're continually arguing 'Demko started pretty much every game' despite it being demonstrated multiple times to you that that is false. How is pointing out this nonsense 'dropping the facade that I'm arguing from an honest position'?

You know very well I do not mean he started 100% of the games. But you are not arguing from a honest position so you clamp on every f***in semantic argument you can find. Obviously you need them since the reality does not align with what you are arguing for. Lets play this game then.

Since Tocchet took over Quinn Hughes has played more minutes than any skater in the league. Before he was 25th in the league. His PK time went from 1:01 per game to

Since Tocchet took over Elias Pettersson has played the 5th most minutes of any forward in the league (from 50th under BB). His time spiked especially on the PK from 1:38 to 3:55 per game.

Since Tocchet took over JT Miller has played the 13th most minutes out of any forward in the league. While his EV time has decreased from 15:16 to 14:34 his PK time went from 1:28 to 2:04.

Since Demko returned from injury he started 16 of possible 20 games. All goalies above him are in the playoffs or were in contention for the playoffs until the last few games.



Stutzle has gained 2mins of more ice time from the 1st half to the 2nd half of the season and almost all of it on PP and 5on5.

Sanderson is playing his rookie season in the league. Do I need to explain more?

Do you understand the difference there between riding your stars dead on the PK vs giving PP and 5on5 time to the lone healthy young star and your rookie Dman?


That being said. Even the argument you badly made uses a team trying to justify its summer moves... I guess we are kinda in the same boat that our management is trying to save face and show "Look! This is the actual team! We weren't wrong after all!"

Nobody is attacking strawmen but you. Nobody is being intellectually dishonest but you. You're making incorrect claims and then people are shooting them down with facts.

Again.

What are the "video game" ideas I have?

I'll wait patiently for you to read out my crimes to me.

 

[MS]

You know very well I do not mean he started 100% of the games. But you are not arguing from a honest position so you clamp on every f***in semantic argument you can find. Obviously you need them since the reality does not align with what you are arguing for. Lets play this game then.

Since Tocchet took over Quinn Hughes has played more minutes than any skater in the league. Before he was 25th in the league. His PK time went from 1:01 per game to

Since Tocchet took over Elias Pettersson has played the 5th most minutes of any forward in the league (from 50th under BB). His time spiked especially on the PK from 1:38 to 3:55 per game.

Since Tocchet took over JT Miller has played the 13th most minutes out of any forward in the league. While his EV time has decreased from 15:16 to 14:34 his PK time went from 1:28 to 2:04.

Since Demko returned from injury he started 16 of possible 20 games. All goalies above him are in the playoffs or were in contention for the playoffs until the last few games.



Stutzle has gained 2mins of more ice time from the 1st half to the 2nd half of the season and almost all of it on PP and 5on5.

Sanderson is playing his rookie season in the league. Do I need to explain more?

Do you understand the difference there between riding your stars dead on the PK vs giving PP and 5on5 time to the lone healthy young star and your rookie Dman?


That being said. Even the argument you badly made uses a team trying to justify its summer moves... I guess we are kinda in the same boat that our management is trying to save face and show "Look! This is the actual team! We weren't wrong after all!"


Again.

What are the "video game" ideas I have?

I'll wait patiently for you to read out my crimes to me.

Dude.

Your whole mantra for the last week has been NO TEAM ACTS LIKE THIS! NO TEAM DOES THIS! and comparing us to the tanking teams of the league when the one team (Ottawa) that is closest to our situation was doing literally exactly what we were doing and playing the absolute balls off their star young players.

I know that 'nearly every game' doesn't mean that you were claiming Demko started 100% of the games, and nobody is saying that you were claiming that Demko started 100% of the games. What you were trying to do was claim that Demko was starting an extremely disproportionate percentage of the games, which is not correct. And you've been shown this a bunch of times, and keep arguing it. You're the poster here being intellectually dishonest here.

You're playing video games because you're in the group demanding a tank that was never going to happen and which ignores both the context and situation of the team and the people and financial realities of professional sport. 0

 

[Soups On]

You know very well I do not mean he started 100% of the games. But you are not arguing from a honest position so you clamp on every f***in semantic argument you can find. Obviously you need them since the reality does not align with what you are arguing for. Lets play this game then.

Since Tocchet took over Quinn Hughes has played more minutes than any skater in the league. Before he was 25th in the league. His PK time went from 1:01 per game to

Since Tocchet took over Elias Pettersson has played the 5th most minutes of any forward in the league (from 50th under BB). His time spiked especially on the PK from 1:38 to 3:55 per game.

Since Tocchet took over JT Miller has played the 13th most minutes out of any forward in the league. While his EV time has decreased from 15:16 to 14:34 his PK time went from 1:28 to 2:04.

Since Demko returned from injury he started 16 of possible 20 games. All goalies above him are in the playoffs or were in contention for the playoffs until the last few games.



Stutzle has gained 2mins of more ice time from the 1st half to the 2nd half of the season and almost all of it on PP and 5on5.

Sanderson is playing his rookie season in the league. Do I need to explain more?

Do you understand the difference there between riding your stars dead on the PK vs giving PP and 5on5 time to the lone healthy young star and your rookie Dman?


That being said. Even the argument you badly made uses a team trying to justify its summer moves... I guess we are kinda in the same boat that our management is trying to save face and show "Look! This is the actual team! We weren't wrong after all!"


Again.

What are the "video game" ideas I have?

I'll wait patiently for you to read out my crimes to me.

Hate to interrupt the debate/drama, I love it - but wouldn't those star players getting more PK ice time be more indicative of the team attempting to see what the franchise pieces can do with increased defensive responsibilities in a new system - setting the team up with some important data for next season. I mean if Petey, Hughes, and all those guys got like 3+ minutes of EV ice time and PP time, wouldn't that be more indicative of them riding them to mediocrity?

If the goal is to compete next season or in the next couple seasons due to the elite rising of the teams star players, which again may not be something many agree with, this kind of stuff has value.

Should they have started Delia more or played other younger try out players like Kravtsov and McDonough more, yeah probably.

 

[valkynax]

So last night I thought about the draft and my face looked like THIS:

But then when I played around with the draft sim it looked like THIS:

For a split second my face turned into THIS:

Which means in 4 weeks I might be doing THIS:

 

[lawrence]

So last night I thought about the draft and my face looked like THIS:

But then when I played around with the draft sim it looked like THIS:

For a split second my face turned into THIS:

Which means in 4 weeks I might be doing THIS:

Give it up bro. Expect us to draft 11 .

 

[valkynax]

Give it up bro. Expect us to draft 11 .

I reject your reality and substitute my own


...

Yeah I know we're very very f***ing f***ed.

 

[ChilliBilly]

Give it up bro. Expect us to draft 11 .

or 12th

 

[Zombotron]

is the lottery really that far out from now? that's goofy

 

[tradervik]

I reject your reality and substitute my own

Seems pretty common around these parts

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

To be clear, I absolutely would rather be drafting 8th. Obviously.

And there's definitely a legitimate argument that they should have played those guys a bit less and maybe they'd be drafting 8th or 9th. But I get what they did and why, and I think that they prioritized the right things.

Where I get triggered are the absolutely ludicrous never-going-to-happen suggestions about what should have been done, and the incredibly toxic thing where people set up the unrealistic as an expectation so they can have a tantrum when the reasonable happens.

What do you mean unrealistic? Simply trade all the mediocre players and bad contracts, hold onto no one except your 3 young superstars who are too good to let you finish the season near the bottom, except actually finish at the bottom, and then simply win the lottery, how hard is that, I mean I win the actually lottery almost every time I play it.

Then do this multiple years, choosing prospects that all turn out as NHLers (and great NHLers) and still get your young superstar players to re-sign with a franchise that is intentionally failing. What about that could you possibly see as unrealistic?

 

[MS]

What do you mean unrealistic? Simply trade all the mediocre players and bad contracts, hold onto no one except your 3 young superstars who are too good to let you finish the season near the bottom, except actually finish at the bottom, and then simply win the lottery, how hard is that, I mean I win the actually lottery almost every time I play it.

Then do this multiple years, choosing prospects that all turn out as NHLers (and great NHLers) and still get your young superstar players to re-sign with a franchise that is intentionally failing. What about that could you possibly see as unrealistic?

Also intentionally hold back those 3 young stars by limiting games/minutes for that intentionally failing team and have them still be super happy to stay on the failing team. It totally works in EA Sports.

 

[VanJack]

With the regular season now done, just about every lottery simulator I've seen has the Canucks either picking 11th or even slipping a spot to 12th.

It's a deep draft and obviously they'll get a good prospect......but realistically, probably no one that will be of much immediate help for at least the next couple of seasons.

The real 'winners' are the teams like Anaheim (13 losses in row), along with Columbus, Arizona, San Jose and Chicago that dumped contracts at the deadline and went into full or soft 'tank mode'.

One of them will walk way with the biggest draft prize since McDavid in 2015. Tell me again the 'fool's gold' win streak under Tocchet was worth anything.

 

[tradervik]

Tell me again the 'fool's gold' win streak under Tocchet was worth anything.

Tell me again that spending money on things of value or saving it instead of buying a lottery ticket is worth anything.

 

[TryamkinPleaseReturn]

The real 'winners' are the teams like Anaheim (13 losses in row), along with Columbus, Arizona, San Jose and Chicago that dumped contracts at the deadline and went into full or soft 'tank mode'.

One of them will walk way with ...

What about the other 4?

 

[ChilliBilly]

What do you mean unrealistic? Simply trade all the mediocre players and bad contracts, hold onto no one except your 3 young superstars who are too good to let you finish the season near the bottom, except actually finish at the bottom, and then simply win the lottery, how hard is that, I mean I win the actually lottery almost every time I play it.

Then do this multiple years, choosing prospects that all turn out as NHLers (and great NHLers) and still get your young superstar players to re-sign with a franchise that is intentionally failing. What about that could you possibly see as unrealistic?

I retired at 53 using this system. While I have not yet won said lottery, I am confident enough about it that I have no money, no savings and live in a card board box.