2023-24 Frank J. Selke Trophy finalists: Aleksander Barkov, Auston Matthews, Jordan Staal | Winner: Aleksander Barkov

[TheNumber4]

More rigged awards for Matthews. Keep rewarding failure Toronto, I’m sure that’ll get them motivated for the playoffs the next time around.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Serious question.

Which advanced stats and how do those advanced stats compare between the 3 of the nominees?

This was literally on the previous page.

Some 5v5 stats

Goals against /60
Barkov 1.49 (3.43 GF, 69.74 GF%)
Matthews 2.56 (3.92 GF, 60.45 GF%)
Staal 2.66 (1.99 GF, 42.86 GF%)

xGA/60
Staal 1.79 (3.05 xGF, 63.07%)
Barkov 1.98 (3.11 xGF, 61.07%)
Matthews 2.48 (3.16 xGF, 56.04%)

Def zone starts / 60
Staal 12.74
Barkov 11.31
Matthews 6.09

Offensive zone start %
Matthews 60.75
Barkov 52.32
Staal 43.55

Matthews numbers are nothing to sneeze at but then again, they are not very different from McDavid or MacKinnon. Obviously great players all of them, but Selke?

Btw. for the Selke I think looking at numbers really is great, because defensive game is all about being effective at what you do. Like in the case of Barkov, I think his defensive game years ago *used to be* overrated because eye-test would show you both effort and a lot of elite defensive skills, while he hadn't really yet put it all together to actually have elite results.

I admit I didn't watch a lot of Matthews during reg. season, but my guess is something like that is going on here. People see a 69 goal scorer put in the defensive effort, making good defensive plays and blocking shots and people overhype that to mean "elite" defensively, while his numbers are way closer to those of McDavid or MacKinnon for example, than Barkov or other "elite" defensive centers.

Barkov here is the outlier, he has defensive numbers quite similar to true shutdown guys (though his usage is not quite that tough, but very tough for a #1C) while not giving up much in offense compared to the superstars. I think he'll win this and should win this based on the criteria that's been used for years, ie. more about "two-way" play than just pure defense like the shutdown warriors play night after night.

 

[v00d00daddy]

I would love to know the writers rationalization of voting Marner and Matthews above players who actually dedicate their games to playing all defensive situations and do a great job of keeping pucks out of their net.

Love it. You reply to my post of questions and leaf hating laughter with another question based solely on leafs hate

Strong answer bud lol

This was literally on the previous page.

Actually saw that and it seemed interesting, borderline cherry picking so I’ll add other stats that may play a part.

Again…I’d like to know what the writers use to come up with their votes.

The rankings of 1st,2nd,3rd are among the 3 nominees if anyone is wondering

Barkov

Hits/60 4.35. 2nd

Blocks/60 2.09 2nd

Giveaways/60 1.29 1st

Takeaways/60 2.55 2nd

Shorthanded TOI/GP 1:59 2nd

On ice E/S GA 35 1st

On ice E/S Goal differential 37 1st

Face Off Win% 56% 2nd



Matthews

Hits/60 3.14 3rd

Blocks/60 3.28 1st

Giveaways/60 1.90 3rd

Takeaways/60 3.00 1st

Shorthanded TOI/GP 0:43 3rd

On ice E/S GA 71 3rd

On ice E/S Goal differential 34 2nd

Face Off Win% 52% 3rd


Staal

Hits/60 6.92 1st

Blocks/60 1.99 3rd

Giveaways/60 1.36 2nd

Takeaways/60 1.21 3rd

Shorthanded TOI/GP 2:07 1st

On ice E/S GA 54 2nd

On ice E/S Goal differential -17 3rd

Face Off Win% 59% 1st


If you think how offensive the forward is plays a part here you go. If you don’t…ignore

Barkov 23g,57a,100pts +33 (72 gp)
Matthews 69g,38a,107pts +31 (81 gp)
Staal 10g,20a,30pts -14 (80 gp)


Barkov is a landslide winner if it’s based on this stuff imo

I’m biased but I’d expect 2nd place voting for matthews. Staals E/S goal differential is awful

 

[nhlfan9191]

Love it. You reply to my post of questions and leaf hating laughter with another question based solely on leafs hate

Strong answer bud lol


Actually saw that and it seemed interesting, borderline cherry picking so….

What are you talking about? You asked if anybody actually cares about getting the answers for why the writers voted the way they did and I answered yes. You then proceeded to play victim. I would love an explanation because I know it’s going to be an awful one that just further supports Toronto bias in the award selections.

 

[Drops of Jupiter]

What happened to the days of Kopitar, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron? Barkov is the only modern guy still in that mold it seems

 

[v00d00daddy]

What are you talking about? You asked if anybody actually cares about getting the answers for why the writers voted the way they did and I answered yes. You then proceeded to play victim. I would love an explanation because I know it’s going to be an awful one that just further supports Toronto bias in the award selections.

Hahaha what the hell did you say yes to?

I asked “What do the writers association members use to come up with their votes?”

Your answer is Yes?

Then you bring up matthews and Marner and questioning why they’re looked at.

Two things said by you that had nothing to do with 2 questions I asked.

Breathe and read bud
Lol

 

[v00d00daddy]

What happened to the days of Kopitar, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron? Barkov is the only modern guy still in that mold it seems

Totally agree.

I think it’s because Barkov is the only one in these times like those 3 guys.

Run away best defensive forwards that are also always on the ice when their team is down a goal. Lots of amazing defensive forwards in the league then and today. But guys that can do both are so hard to find.

Its an amazing trait to have. Also why Zet is one my faves of all time and I think was underrated

 

[nhlfan9191]

Wondering 2 things:

1. What do the writers association members use to come up with their votes?

2. Does anybody here who is laughing at Matthews being considered have half a clue or even care about the answer to question 1?

Love the hate lol

I would love to know the writers rationalization of voting Marner and Matthews above players who actually dedicate their games to playing all defensive situations and do a great job of keeping pucks out of their net.

You can’t call out people for lacking reading comprehension when it’s in fact you that in fact that seems to lack it.

 

[v00d00daddy]

You can’t call out people for lacking reading comprehension when it’s in fact you that in fact that seems to lack it.

Dude. I asked WHAT do they look at. Did you answer that?

You didn’t answer that. You just said you’d also like to know what they look at just to take a shot at Marner and Matthews.

Don’t think you came off as actually wanting to know what the writers use to come up with their Selke votes.

Keep Leaf hating lol

 

[nhlfan9191]

Dude. I asked WHAT do they look at. Did you answer that?

You didn’t answer that. You just said you’d also like to know what they look at just to take a shot at Marner and Matthews.

Don’t think you came off as actually wanting to know what the writers use to come up with their Selke votes.

Keep Leaf hating lol

If I knew the answer to your question, I wouldn’t be questioning Matthews being on the ballot myself. I don’t understand how a player that averages less then a minute on the PK a game, a big part of the defensive part of the sport, can be nominated as the best defensive forward. You responded to my question by asking a question of your own. Has nothing to do with “Leaf hating.”

 

[dukeofjive]

Night and day from the usual suspects.

Team has the best players ever in every position and still can’t win shit.

Meh you guys just don’t get it.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Wondering 2 things:

1. What do the writers association members use to come up with their votes?

2. Does anybody here who is laughing at Matthews being considered have half a clue or even care about the answer to question 1?

Love the hate lol

Someone posted the defensive stats between the three… there’s a MAJOR gap between him and the other two.

Unless they’re basing this on blocked shots (which would be LOL), there’s nothing remotely suggesting he should be a finalist

 

[v00d00daddy]

If I knew the answer to your question, I wouldn’t be questioning Matthews being on the ballot myself. I don’t understand how a player that averages less then a minute on the PK a game, a big part of the defensive part of the sport, can be nominated as the best defensive forward. You responded to my question by asking a question of your own. Has nothing to do with “Leaf hating.”

So your answer to “what do writers look at?” Is penalty killing time? Or if they’re not high in pk time they shouldn’t be considered?

Fine. I think lots of other things are also probably looked at when votes go in.

I know Datsyuk WON selkes without being a big pk guy.

I also think this is a deserved runaway win for Barkov.

I just don’t think it’s ridiculous that matthews is a nominee, despite him not being much of a pk guy. He does a lot of other things really well defensively.

But if pk time is the thing that makes you eliminate him…fine.

Someone posted the defensive stats between the three… there’s a MAJOR gap between him and the other two.

Unless they’re basing this on blocked shots (which would be LOL), there’s nothing remotely suggesting he should be a finalist

I saw the stats you’re talking about and I added many more that weren’t put up.

Did you see those? Did you see what I think of them? Or….

Do you just hate leafs fans? Lol

 

[Stickpucker]

I'm surprised EP isn't ahead of Matthew's here.

 

[nbwingsfan]

So your answer to “what do writers look at?” Is penalty killing time? Or if they’re not high in pk time they shouldn’t be considered?

Fine. I think lots of other things are also probably looked at when votes go in.

I know Datsyuk WON selkes without being a big pk guy.

I also think this is a deserved runaway win for Barkov.

I just don’t think it’s ridiculous that matthews is a nominee, despite him not being much of a pk guy. He does a lot of other things really well defensively.

But if pk time is the thing that makes you eliminate him…fine.


I saw the stats you’re talking about and I added many more that weren’t put up.

Did you see those? Did you see what I think of them? Or….

Do you just hate leafs fans? Lol

You added other stats that still don’t help Matthews case as a finalist. Also since when the hell do hits have literally anything to do with your defensive ability?

Congrats…?

 

[Rob Brown]

Is this supposed to be a flex?

How could you read that and think I’m trying to flex? Lol

 

[v00d00daddy]

You added other stats that still don’t help Matthews case as a finalist. Also since when the hell do hits have literally anything to do with your defensive ability?

Congrats…?

I just looked for defensive stats.

I guess you don’t think hits take a spot. Fine

And saying that they don’t help Matthews doesn’t mean anything.

I also said it’s an easy win for Barkov. He’s by far the best defensive forward imo.

So…Which stats help Staal and hurt Matthews?

Who else should be in there and why?

 

[Craig Button]

Barkov for the win

 

[Leaf Fans]

Night and day from the usual suspects.

Team has the best players ever in every position and still can’t win shit.

Meh you guys just don’t get it.

Which team does?

 

[BostonBruins11]

Dear Toronto Writers: just because you keep preaching a lie doesn't mean it will ever become true. EVERYONE outside the TOR media can smell the BS you are constantly trying to shove down our throats.

 

[Rob Brown]

Dear Toronto Writers: just because you keep preaching a lie doesn't mean it will ever become true. EVERYONE outside the TOR media can smell the BS you are constantly trying to shove down our throats.

You know that there are hundreds of voters, right? He couldn't get into the top 3 by only Toronto based writers.

Also, sorry that Toronto is the most populated city in Canada (and one of the most in North America) and therefore has a lot of media/writers due to the population and quite obviously the fact that it's where a lot of hockey is based, but that doesn't mean that they are all pro-Leafs. Plenty of people move to Toronto from other parts of Canada for the opportunity, and wouldn't consider themselves fans of the Leafs. Either way, writing about hockey in Canada doesn't automatically make you biased towards the Leafs.

Some of you are so dramatic. Barkov is going to win, stop whining.

EDIT: to prove my point, you can view individual votes by each writer for last year here. Look at whichever award you want and you'll see the diversity in the voters in terms of their location and outlet. Again, stop whining.

PHWA reveals 2023 NHL Awards ballots – Professional Hockey Writers Association

www.thephwa.com

 

[BostonBruins11]

You know that there are hundreds of voters, right? He couldn't get into the top 3 by only Toronto based writers.

Also, sorry that Toronto is the most populated city in Canada (and one of the most in North America) and therefore has a lot of media/writers due to the population and quite obviously the fact that it's where a lot of hockey is based, but that doesn't mean that they are all pro-Leafs. Plenty of people move to Toronto from other parts of Canada for the opportunity, and wouldn't consider themselves fans of the Leafs. Either way, writing about hockey in Canada doesn't automatically make you biased towards the Leafs.

Some of you are so dramatic. Barkov is going to win, stop whining.

EDIT: to prove my point, you can view individual votes by each writer for last year here. Look at whichever award you want and you'll see the diversity in the voters in terms of their location and outlet. Again, stop whining.

PHWA reveals 2023 NHL Awards ballots – Professional Hockey Writers Association

www.thephwa.com

I should have said dear Toronto writers AND media. It was so cringe every time Matthews backchecked... TOR media had to slide in "elite 2-way forward Matthews". Say it enough time and soon the writers & fans will gobble that up, heard mentality. I'm not all that surprised since TOR media are the GODS of arbitrary stats and narrative manipulation. I'm Canadian so I get front row seats to this garbage daily.

I find it puzzling that he gets praise for something every center is expected to do. FYI I'm not saying he's bad defensively but far from elite.

 

[Rob Brown]

I should have said dear Toronto writers AND media. It was so cringe every time Matthews backchecked... TOR media had to slide in "elite 2-way forward Matthews". Say it enough time and soon the writers & fans will gobble that up, heard mentality. I'm not all that surprised since TOR media are the GODS of arbitrary stats and narrative manipulation. I'm Canadian so I get front row seats to this garbage daily.

I find it puzzling that he gets praise for something every center is expected to do. FYI I'm not saying he's bad defensively but far from elite.

I mean...the fans have nothing to do it with the award voting, so that's an irrelevant comment. I don't think award voters in cities in the US care what media in Toronto has to say about him, they vote based on their own opinion, and clearly Matthews got a lot of top 3 votes from writers outside of Toronto and Canada in order to be a finalist. Not everyone is wrong and biased just because you don't like the outcome. And again, Barkov is going to win in all likelihood, so who cares?

Matthews is top 1-5 in a lot of defensive categories, so it's not like he's just doing what every centre does in the league. He's better than Barkov in some areas, and obviously worse in other areas. He's better than Staal in some areas, and not as good in others.

 

[JianYang]

Selke voting has been pretty distorted over the years. The trophy was obviously created for the unheralded but very important Bob Gainey's of the world - players who play primarily a shutdown role at the expense of offense. -The type of guys who are sent over the boards when the other team's top line is taking an offensive zone face-off.

Somewhere along the way it converted, at least for some voters, into a "pumping my favorite superstar" vote, statistics be damned.

If it were up to me, I'm often voting for non-household name 3rd liners who are taking the toughest 5v5 match-ups, penalty killing 2 or more minutes per game, and taking a majority or at least near majority defensive zone starts. That's not a sexy vote.

Anyway, I like the Staal nomination.

33% offensive zone draws
2 minutes plus PK per game
Very effective in terms of ES goals against despite taking tough match-ups.

Checks all 3 boxes to a very high degree.

I agree. The dna of this trophy changed at some point.

 

[Strangle]

One of these things is not like the other

One of them scored 69 goals and has won multiple rockets