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Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

SJS1991 said:
Are you just saying this in general? Or referencing something I said?

Because I never thought Goodrow was he to “produce”. That’s my whole argument… that’s why he can be garbage on the ice. And everyone with the Sharks will talk glowingly about him.

There are certain players that need to produce… there are certain players that need to develop… there are other players that honestly just don’t matter.
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I think he was supporting your arguments.
 
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SJS1991 said:
Are you just saying this in general? Or referencing something I said?

Because I never thought Goodrow was he to “produce”. That’s my whole argument… that’s why he can be garbage on the ice. And everyone with the Sharks will talk glowingly about him.

There are certain players that need to produce… there are certain players that need to develop… there are other players that honestly just don’t matter.
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I was agreeing with you. Goodrow wasn't expected to be a major contributor on the ice (although probably far more was expected) but be more of a vet presence that Grier focused on bringing in during the offseason to help with the kids.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
His results. The results he is responsible for because he's the one physically taking the shifts. That's not unique to him and it doesn't need to be. The base level of accountability on any professional team is required for the culture to be even just not toxic. Comparing him to 4th liners on other teams means nothing when his ice time is that of a 3rd liner here.
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But he mainly only played on the 4th line here … with 4th line talent. He is a 4th liner here.

I get collectively he got the 9th most time in teal. But that’s not a honest evaluation. SJ is a last place team, changing players in and out of the line up. He got that number because he nailed down a spot on the 4th line.

Guys on the 2nd and 3rd line kept changing. So their totals can’t compare to Goodrows.

He wasn’t a main stay on the 3rd line… so the production is to highlight given the talent he is working with, he falls within the margins of error for the rest of the league as a 4th liner.

People just need something to be angry about.

My point is, rage against Goodrow… God speed. Just don’t say it’s a black eye on Grier, as if Goodrow was brought here to move the needle with his personal production. He, again, wasn’t. He was brought here to be a resource for what a professional NHLer should be. How you work, day in, day out… etc and to make sure the locker room doesn’t break down.
 
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SJS1991 said:
But he mainly only played on the 4th liner here … with 4th line talent. He is a 4th liner here.

I get collectively he go the 9th most time in teal. But that’s not an honest evaluation. SJ is a last place team, changing players in and out of the line up. He got that number because he nailed down a spot on the 4th line.

Guys on the 2nd and 3rd line kept changing. So their totals can’t compare to Goodrows.

He wasn’t a main stay on the 3rd line… so the production is to highlight given the talent he is working with, he falls within the margins of error for the rest of the league as a 4th liner.

People just need something to be angry about.

My point is, rage against Goodrow… God speed. Just don’t say it’s a black eye on Grier, as if Goodrow was brought here to move the needle with his personal production. He, again, wasn’t. He was brought here to be a resource for what a professional NHL should be. How you work, day in, day out… etc and to make sure the locker room doesn’t break down.
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But he didn't whether you acknowledge that or not. I agree that he played predominantly with 4th line talent but to say his actual ice time isn't an honest evaluation of how he was used is preposterous and it is certainly not honest. He was every bit of a mainstay on the 3rd line as anyone else you can really point to. But when someone getting 3rd line ice time puts up 4th line production, that's failing to pull your weight. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying Goodrow is a black eye on Grier because even if he was a good 4th liner, you're paying that guy 3.6 mil for three years to play that role. It was a bad bet then. It only proved to be true at this point. It doesn't mean that Grier hasn't done many other good moves or doesn't have the team on the right track but we don't need to act like he's beyond criticism. He brings in some flops too and that's okay to acknowledge as part of the process. I agree that he was brought in to be a resource for what a professional should be. I don't think there's a single tangible thing you can point to that shows Goodrow is a success at it thus far.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
But he didn't whether you acknowledge that or not. I agree that he played predominantly with 4th line talent but to say his actual ice time isn't an honest evaluation of how he was used is preposterous and it is certainly not honest. He was every bit of a mainstay on the 3rd line as anyone else you can really point to. But when someone getting 3rd line ice time puts up 4th line production, that's failing to pull your weight.
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His even strength avg time on ice was…11:14, below the likes of Graf, Kunin, Kovalenko and even Poturalski when he was called up.

11:14 is inline with 4th line minutes. His time gets to board line 3rd line because of all the PK he did (most data suggest 13:00 in high end for 4th liners…. Low end for 3rd liners).

For the PK… he avg the 5th most avg time on ice at 2:01 and was the top forward for avg time on ice short handed. In that time he was 1 of only 2 in the top 7 avg time on ice short handed that had a positive CF% Rel. at 0.4…. Everyone loved Granlund for his wide usage… he was 7th in avg time on the PK at 1:57… his CF% Rel? -5.7.

He was a 4th liner… on a bad team that took a lot of penalties, so he had to get shelled every night. And in that role he wasn’t terrible. And manage to be in line with other 4th liners in counting stats.

Pinkfloyd said:
There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying Goodrow is a black eye on Grier because even if he was a good 4th liner, you're paying that guy 3.6 mil for three years to play that role. It was a bad bet then. It only proved to be true at this point. It doesn't mean that Grier hasn't done many other good moves or doesn't have the team on the right track but we don't need to act like he's beyond criticism. He brings in some flops too and that's okay to acknowledge as part of the process. I agree that he was brought in to be a resource for what a professional should be. I don't think there's a single tangible thing you can point to that shows Goodrow is a success at it thus far.
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At a time when it doesn’t matter… wake me up when we only have 3 million in cap space and Grier is doing this with garbage players while they are competing for cups.

The whole reason he does this is because this fact…. Does not matter. He is happy to over pay for the right culture guy(s) in the short term. When the Sharks are a playoff team he won’t be able to afford this luxury.
 
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SJS1991 said:
His even strength avg time on ice was…11:14, below the likes of Graf, Kunin, Kovalenko and even Poturalski when he was called up.

11:14 is inline with 4th line minutes. His time gets to board line 3rd line because of all the PK he did (most data suggest 13:00 in high end for 4th liners…. Low end for 3rd liners).

For the PK… he avg the 5th most avg time on ice at 2:01 and was the top forward for avg time on ice short handed. In that time he was 1 of only 2 in the top 7 avg time on ice short handed that had a positive CF% Rel. at 0.4…. Everyone loved Granlund for his wide usage… he was 7th in avg time on the PK at 1:57… his CF% Rel? -5.7.

He was a 4th liner… on a bad team that took a lot of penalties, so he had to get shelled every night. And in that role he wasn’t terrible. And manage to be in line with other 4th liners in counting stats.


At a time when it doesn’t matter… wake me up when we only have 3 million in cap space and Grier is doing this with garbage players while they are competing for cups.

The whole reason he does this is because this fact…. Does not matter. He is happy to over pay for the right culture guy(s) in the short term. When the Sharks are a playoff team he won’t be able to afford this luxury.
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You're comparing a guy who played 77 games to those that played less than half the season except for Kunin. His usage was far more above the 4th line than actual 4th line. I didn't say he didn't play the 4th line at all. I'm saying his usage was beyond that of a normal 4th liner. The borderline for the 3rd and 4th line is right where Goodrow is. A normal 4th liner is lucky to play ten minutes a night at evens.

I don't see why CF% Rel is a useful statistic for assessing short handed quality.

And if you're going to continue to say that it doesn't matter then his cultural impact also doesn't matter. You can't have that both ways. Either what these players do on the ice matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, why does any of it matter? If it does matter, why is holding someone accountable for consistently poor play some big problem people are having? He was easily one of the worst forwards in the league last year. It's not a luxury to have a guy suck. It's a liability regardless of where you're at as a team.
 
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Juxtaposer said:
I’d rather argue about Goodrow for the next 2.5 years than pay Sam Bennett $10M, so at least there’s that.
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And rob me of defending Bennett every time he gives other concussions?!?!? Speak for yourself. I want that dirty rat on this team…
 
Let me bring up again, that while Goodrow certainly didn't prove the doubters wrong, I can understand Grier's headspace when he acquired him

Remember, they picked him off waivers before July 1st. At that time, Grier had (other than the injured Couture) Mikael Granlund as the only veteran forward on the team. I get that he wanted some guarantees with the real fear of striking out in free agency.
 
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Pinkfloyd said:
And if you're going to continue to say that it doesn't matter then his cultural impact also doesn't matter. You can't have that both ways. Either what these players do on the ice matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't matter, why does any of it matter? If it does matter, why is holding someone accountable for consistently poor play some big problem people are having? He was easily one of the worst forwards in the league last year. It's not a luxury to have a guy suck. It's a liability regardless of where you're at as a team.
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You brought up his salary… I said that doesn’t matter. They are overpaying for a culture guy. Overpaying players currently doesn’t matter… most here keep saying to overpay guys just to get them here.

And to your point, most of this doesn’t matter. It’s why I said why count this as a black eye on Grier? Goodrow on this team, during this time of the rebuild is a huge nothing in the grand scheme of the sharks.

What matters is Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Askarov, Dickson and the 2OA… and their development. Grier and Warso put Goodrow on Mack’s wing next year for all 82 games…. I’ll stand right along side you screaming to end this madness.

The overall winning right now isn’t being dragged down by Goodrow. It’s because any player worth something can’t even drink alcohol legally on this team. Winning will come when they are older and better, and there are more offseason cycles for Grier to switch out these bums.
 
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SJS1991 said:
You brought up his salary… I said that doesn’t matter. They are overpaying for a culture guy. Overpaying players currently doesn’t matter… most here keep saying to overpay guys just to get them here.

And to your point, most of this doesn’t matter. It’s why I said why count this as a black eye on Grier? Goodrow on this team, during this time of the rebuild is a huge nothing in the grand scheme of the sharks.

What matters is Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Askarov, Dickson and the 2OA… and their development. Grier and Warso put Goodrow on Mack’s wing next year for all 82 games…. I’ll stand right along side you screaming to end this madness.

The overall winning right now isn’t being dragged down by Goodrow. It’s because any player worth something can’t even drink alcohol legally on this team. Winning will come when they are older and better, and there are more offseason cycles for Grier to switch out these bums.
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Yeah, well that's the problem. The idea that he's a culture guy and that his salary doesn't matter is a contradictory statement in my eyes. It matters to the culture when you're trying to do it right.
 
SJS1991 said:
The 13M a year is still on the table? Hahaha
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Getting an instant flashback to when I was scrolling my phone and refreshing my Twitter page and other NHL news pages every 10 seconds on a hot summer evening in 2018 to see where Tavares chooses to go..
 
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coooldude said:
Such a disappointment to this day.
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Don’t get me wrong I loved Karlsson, thought it was a great move at the time. The highs were high. But the lows were bad.

Didn’t think a 3OA would ever be going back to the Sens, but I guess time makes fools of us all.
 
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