Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[LinkGaetz23]

Are we really doing this again right on the heels of Bordeleau, Gushchin and the rest of the 2020 draft class all flaming out? Smurfs putting up numbers in the AHL means nothing. The comparison to Mukhamadullin is absurd. Cagnoni is a foot shorter and a dogshit skater compared to Shak. He will never impact a NHL game defensively the way Mukhamadullin can.

You're comparing players who were older, at positions that develop faster and who had less impressive seasons even as older players to Cagnoni. It's either completely disingenuous on your part or idiotic.

 

[gaucholoco3]

The 5F unit was terribad. Wennberg did not represent any semblance of a threat from the point. The sharks need a pointman who can walk the line, use quickness and edgework to create shooting lanes, make quick decisions and creativity. Walman was respectable in that role. Cagnoni is the only other guy in the org right now who seems capable of that, aside from Dick.

BTW, side note, Ottawa just lost again. If they get swept (or close to it) and zetterlund produces nothing, I wonder what they will do with him. he doesnt seem to fit well there, and Grier moved him because he had a fat hard on for Ostapchuk. Pretty sure Zetts was looking for a 5x5 type deal.

Well, 2 months later, 5x5 seems like a distant pipe dream for him. Ottawa might not see him as a major part of their future. The fallout of trading zetts in the locker room, particularly for eklund, as well as the missing scoring on the ice has gotta make grier question his own move. I would be more than happy to give back the 2nd, and give him 4x4m. We know he fits well in the room, and he would plug a top 9W role nicely. I'll be watching...

I don’t get why people want to keep giving back assets for a player who only looked good playing top line minutes on the worst team in the cap era. He is not good and Grier did a great job not falling into the trap by handing him a long term deal.

I admit I was fooled by Zetterlund before the deadline thinking he was a core adjacent piece. After Grier traded him for what looked like a soft return I feel like my Sharks beer goggles were removed to realize he was a very flawed player.

 

[Hodge]

I would consider Cagnoni’s rookie season more impressive than what Bordeleau or Gushchin did at a similar age. Doing it on defense is much different with a much different arc than a forward. He may not impact the game defensively but he may offensively and you need some of that sort of depth since anyone that is a reliable scorer on defense tends to get pricy.

More impressive than Bordeleau and Gushchin is a low bar to clear and 34 of Cagnoni's 52 points were on the power play. He's a terrible 5v5 player.

 

[Hodge]

You're comparing players who were older, at positions that develop faster and who had less impressive seasons even as older players to Cagnoni. It's either completely disingenuous on your part or idiotic.

Bordeleau and Gushchin have been getting hyped on this board since they were younger than Cagnoni. Forward, defense, goalie...if you're a smurf who can't skate at an elite level you're not gonna make it in the NHL.

 

[LinkGaetz23]

More impressive than Bordeleau and Gushchin is a low bar to clear and 34 of Cagnoni's 52 points were on the power play. He's a terrible 5v5 player.

Sure but you're the one making the comparison, claiming it's the same thing. But then again, you also claimed that "smurf offenseman either develop early or not at all" and couldn't provide a single other example than Girard. Wildly inaccurate comparisons and claims seem to be your thing.

 

[Lebanezer]

Wow those 6 games were so impactful for the Sharks.

He has some skills but simply doesn’t have the skating to be successful in the NHL. He was a great late round pick but unless he can drastically improve his skating he will be an excellent career AHL defenseman.

What is the actual purpose of such a closed minded take on a player? It's not like it's a big deal that Cagnoni made the NHL this year when you thought he wouldn't. And it also wasn't unreasonable to think that he wouldn't make the NHL this season. Cagnoni had a very good year all things considered. Why not just see what happens with him?

 

[Hodge]

Sure but you're the one making the comparison, claiming it's the same thing. But then again, you also claimed that "smurf offenseman either develop early or not at all" and couldn't provide a single other example than Girard. Wildly inaccurate comparisons and claims seem to be your thing.

Probably because there aren't many smurf offensemen enjoying NHL careers to begin with. I wonder why?

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Wow those 6 games were so impactful for the Sharks.

He has some skills but simply doesn’t have the skating to be successful in the NHL. He was a great late round pick but unless he can drastically improve his skating he will be an excellent career AHL defenseman.

Six is still more than the zero you adamantly said would not happen so maybe hedge your bets a little more? An offseason after your first season can give you the opportunity to improve things like skating. It’s really silly to write him off already.

More impressive than Bordeleau and Gushchin is a low bar to clear and 34 of Cagnoni's 52 points were on the power play. He's a terrible 5v5 player.

For his age, that’s still impressive and should be expected that he’d start meh at evens. The Sharks could use a power play specialist so why not give him an opportunity? He can improve.

 

[sampler]

Are we really doing this again right on the heels of Bordeleau, Gushchin and the rest of the 2020 draft class all flaming out? Smurfs putting up numbers in the AHL means nothing. The comparison to Mukhamadullin is absurd. Cagnoni is a foot shorter and a dogshit skater compared to Shak. He will never impact a NHL game defensively the way Mukhamadullin can.

You think he's a dogshit skater?

CAGNONI PROVING HE BELONGS | San Jose Barracuda

www.sjbarracuda.com

They sign his skating praises. And, btw, he was passed up for the WHL draft. Like, even the junior teams thought he was too small. Oops, only led the whole league in scoring. Then was supposed to be forced to stay in juniors, but forced his way to stay in the Pros. Then, 3rd in the league in D scoring, and QB of the AHL's #1 PP.

of course, none of that adversity, and the success to overcome it, necessarily tranlates into NHL success. But, the kid clearly has serious guts, and sees naysayers as motivators. And, I dont think his skating is what would hold him back. Just pure physicality, defensive positioning, and battles would hold him back. Unlike Bordeleau or Gush, I think Cagnoni's offense translates just fine. Like Gush, only the physical play and defense would hold him back and he doesnt seem like the type to allow that to stop him.

 

[sampler]

Probably because there aren't many smurf offensemen enjoying NHL careers to begin with. I wonder why?

yes, there are pretty few. But not none. Hughes, Fox, Spurgeon, Krug, Hutson, Gryclyk... No doubt Cagnoni has an uphill battle, but I dont think too many 5'9" Dmen have been top 3 in AHL scoring at age 19/20.

 

[Hodge]

You think he's a dogshit skater?

CAGNONI PROVING HE BELONGS | San Jose Barracuda

www.sjbarracuda.com

They sign his skating praises. And, btw, he was passed up for the WHL draft. Like, even the junior teams thought he was too small. Oops, only led the whole league in scoring. Then was supposed to be forced to stay in juniors, but forced his way to stay in the Pros. Then, 3rd in the league in D scoring, and QB of the AHL's #1 PP.

of course, none of that adversity, and the success to overcome it, necessarily tranlates into NHL success. But, the kid clearly has serious guts, and sees naysayers as motivators. And, I dont think his skating is what would hold him back. Just pure physicality, defensive positioning, and battles would hold him back. Unlike Bordeleau or Gush, I think Cagnoni's offense translates just fine. Like Gush, only the physical play and defense would hold him back and he doesnt seem like the type to allow that to stop him.

Well if the official team website says so I guess it must be true...

Cagnoni's offense hasn't even translated to the AHL yet. He's a power play merchant at that level. And at the end of the day, even if Cagnoni pans out, his player type is not valuable or difficult to acquire. Just look at what Gostisbehere signed for after multiple 50+ point seasons. Erik Gustafsson and Tony DeAngelo are available on the scrap heap every summer.

 

[LinkGaetz23]

Probably because there aren't many smurf offensemen enjoying NHL careers to begin with. I wonder why?

You just completely made something up to support your biased view. A "smurf offenseman" is about to win the Calder and pretty much every team regrets passing on him. All things equal a smaller D is going to be up against it, but once you see big production at a young age you should probably consider that they have a legit chance at being good even with obvious flaws in their game.

 

[Hodge]

You just completely made something up to support your biased view. A "smurf offenseman" is about to win the Calder and pretty much every team regrets passing on him. All things equal a smaller D is going to be up against it, but once you see big production at a young age you should probably consider that they have a legit chance at being good even with obvious flaws in their game.

Teams that are serious about winning the Stanley Cup do not regret passing on Lane Hutson. You're always going to be at a disadvantage giving a massive defensive liability like him top 4 minutes no matter how many empty calorie points he scores.

 

[SJS1991]

I think Cagnoni's only hope is that he needs to out score his clear size issue... which leads to defensive issues. Just like Hutson did this year.

But like I said earlier in the thread... if San Jose gets the first overall and selects Schaefer, then Cagnoni doesn't really have a place in San Jose moving forward, at least long term. If they get Schaefer, he is your PP1 quarterback, Cagnoni's path to consistent NHL time is as the PP1 quarterback and sheltered offensive zone time. Schaefer takes all of that off the table because they arent using the first overall on a d-man if he isnt doing everything.

Like there is a path if Dickinson was just the 1D because Cagnoni would take his PP1 minutes... while Dickinson does everything else you want your 1D to do.

 

[sampler]

Wow those 6 games were so impactful for the Sharks.

He has some skills but simply doesn’t have the skating to be successful in the NHL. He was a great late round pick but unless he can drastically improve his skating he will be an excellent career AHL defenseman.

Is there any actual data that backs the skating criticisms? I thought he looked pretty quick, and I didn't see skating as the issue. I saw him struggling to get pucks out, win corner battles, get good net front tie ups and positioning, etc that made him look overmatched. Clearly, he needs to improve those areas....

I also saw him hesitant to shoot on the PP and still figuring out the offensive part of the game at the NHL level too. Of course, that's to be expected when debuting in the NHL with a terrible team and no practice time to make it smoother, but I dont read much into that.

 

[jarr92]

You just completely made something up to support your biased view. A "smurf offenseman" is about to win the Calder and pretty much every team regrets passing on him. All things equal a smaller D is going to be up against it, but once you see big production at a young age you should probably consider that they have a legit chance at being good even with obvious flaws in their game.

Hutson has much better skating and stick handling.

 

[jarr92]

Is there any actual data that backs the skating criticisms? I thought he looked pretty quick, and I didn't see skating as the issue. I saw him struggling to get pucks out, win corner battles, get good net front tie ups and positioning, etc that made him look overmatched. Clearly, he needs to improve those areas....

I also saw him hesitant to shoot on the PP and still figuring out the offensive part of the game at the NHL level too. Of course, that's to be expected when debuting in the NHL with a terrible team and no practice time to make it smoother, but I dont read much into that.

 

[Roasted Nuts]

Hutson has much better skating and stick handling.

On the flipside, Cagnoni at the same height is heftier and stronger at 180 (vs Hutson at 162).

 

[sampler]

Teams that are serious about winning the Stanley Cup do not regret passing on Lane Hutson. You're always going to be at a disadvantage giving a massive defensive liability like him top 4 minutes no matter how many empty calorie points he scores.

One side concept is that a guy like Hutson could land you a very nice package in trade.

If Cagnoni puts up 60 pts next year and makes a calder cup run, and grier sees Schaefer-Dick-Mukh in the left side for the future, then he can trade Cagnoni for a young top 6 winger or a top 4 RHD. Makes sense to play him alot, and hope he does well, to massively boost his trade value if nothing else.

(p.s.: You can call Hutson bad, but montreal had no chance of making the PO's without him this year.)

 

[Lebanezer]

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View attachment 1020669

I didn't think it would be possible for Cagnoni to look like the older player, since he looks like he's in middle school, but I was wrong.

 

[Hodge]

One side concept is that a guy like Hutson could land you a very nice package in trade.

If Cagnoni puts up 60 pts next year and makes a calder cup run, and grier sees Schaefer-Dick-Mukh in the left side for the future, then he can trade Cagnoni for a young top 6 winger or a top 4 RHD. Makes sense to play him alot, and hope he does well, to massively boost his trade value if nothing else.

(p.s.: You can call Hutson bad, but montreal had no chance of making the PO's without him this year.)

Again, even if you're a team that needs an offenseman, why trade a nice package for Hutson when you can just acquire this summer's version of Ghost or DeAngelo or Gustafsson or Walman and get 85-90% of his value at a fraction of the cost?

Montreal made the playoffs because Montembeault played out of his mind, papering over how awful Bustson and really that entire team is defensively. They will crash back down to earth next season and their rebuild is probably doomed long term.

 

[jarr92]

On the flipside, Cagnoni at the same height is heftier and stronger at 180 (vs Hutson at 162).

That's true but Hutson is an elite skater so it's not a great comparison.

 

[sampler]

Well if the official team website says so I guess it must be true...

Cagnoni's offense hasn't even translated to the AHL yet. He's a power play merchant at that level. And at the end of the day, even if Cagnoni pans out, his player type is not valuable or difficult to acquire. Just look at what Gostisbehere signed for after multiple 50+ point seasons. Erik Gustafsson and Tony DeAngelo are available on the scrap heap every summer.

obviously, the source is iffy

Agreed that he lived on the PP. that said, PP goals also count, last I checked, and the Cuda were the #1 pp largely because of him. If the sharks could be a top 10 PP due to Cagnoni, it would revolutionize the team.

Lastly, I feel it's hard to label a 20 year old. In his D+1 year in NCAA, Quinn Hughes was point per game and -2. He was also -10, and -24 in his first two full NHL years, at right about the same age as Cagnoni. But, by NHL year 3, he had improved defensively and now he's a superstar, but he still gets nearly half his points on the PP.

Cagnoni had a so so defensive year in the A. He was +47 in his final junior year. I don't think his defensive weaknesses are a lifelong condition of being small. They can be taught, and improved with experience and hard work. Clearly, Cagnoni has the work ethic and drive....

 

[LinkGaetz23]

Hutson has much better skating and stick handling.

No doubt. Never said he was as good a prospect as Hutson.

 

[Star Platinum]

Are we really doing this again right on the heels of Bordeleau, Gushchin and the rest of the 2020 draft class all flaming out? Smurfs putting up numbers in the AHL means nothing. The comparison to Mukhamadullin is absurd. Cagnoni is a foot shorter and a dogshit skater compared to Shak. He will never impact a NHL game defensively the way Mukhamadullin can.

If Mukhamadullin is a foot taller than Cagnoni, he should change his name to Shaq.