Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[SJS1991]

obviously, the source is iffy

Agreed that he lived on the PP. that said, PP goals also count, last I checked, and the Cuda were the #1 pp largely because of him. If the sharks could be a top 10 PP due to Cagnoni, it would revolutionize the team.

Lastly, I feel it's hard to label a 20 year old. In his D+1 year in NCAA, Quinn Hughes was point per game and -2. He was also -10, and -24 in his first two full NHL years, at right about the same age as Cagnoni. But, by NHL year 3, he had improved defensively and now he's a superstar, but he still gets nearly half his points on the PP.

Cagnoni had a so so defensive year in the A. He was +47 in his final junior year. I don't think his defensive weaknesses are a lifelong condition of being small. They can be taught, and improved with experience and hard work. Clearly, Cagnoni has the work ethic and drive....

I think the greater point isn't that in a single game or even a season... that Cagnoni's size will be an issue per-say. Its the idea in a seven game series... x4... that he will get exposed and be a liability. More so if the whole reason youre there in the first place is because he is scoring at a crazy level. He will need to play because you need that production, as you are built on it.

Playoff hockey is heavy and tight. Cagnoni on defense will need to be a technician and maybe not perfect but close to it consistently... especially in the playoffs and i think Hodge's point is thats not realistic. He will likely get tired... technique will suffer... and he is getting dog walked in his zone.

The reason GMs and scouts in general like big guys, is because when technique fails them... they have something else to access to bail them out.

 

[Star Platinum]

I don’t get why people want to keep giving back assets for a player who only looked good playing top line minutes on the worst team in the cap era. He is not good and Grier did a great job not falling into the trap by handing him a long term deal.

I admit I was fooled by Zetterlund before the deadline thinking he was a core adjacent piece. After Grier traded him for what looked like a soft return I feel like my Sharks beer goggles were removed to realize he was a very flawed player.

Depends on how many assets. We need someone to play forward while we wait for Musty and Chernyshov to cook.

 

[The McMafia]

obviously, the source is iffy

Agreed that he lived on the PP. that said, PP goals also count, last I checked, and the Cuda were the #1 pp largely because of him. If the sharks could be a top 10 PP due to Cagnoni, it would revolutionize the team.

Lastly, I feel it's hard to label a 20 year old. In his D+1 year in NCAA, Quinn Hughes was point per game and -2. He was also -10, and -24 in his first two full NHL years, at right about the same age as Cagnoni. But, by NHL year 3, he had improved defensively and now he's a superstar, but he still gets nearly half his points on the PP.

Cagnoni had a so so defensive year in the A. He was +47 in his final junior year. I don't think his defensive weaknesses are a lifelong condition of being small. They can be taught, and improved with experience and hard work. Clearly, Cagnoni has the work ethic and drive....

Cagnoni won't ever be a top pair player just due to his reach (I think that is more critical than pure height) but if he can be a good second/third pair puck mover that is great on the power play, there's definitely room on a winning roster for that. Maybe he pans out, maybe he doesn't.

One thing he does have going for him that someone like Hutson does not have is mass. 5-9 and 180 pounds as a pro athlete means you're built like a fire hydrant, and he could probably put on more weight.

 

[Jargon]

Are we really doing this again right on the heels of Bordeleau, Gushchin and the rest of the 2020 draft class all flaming out? Smurfs putting up numbers in the AHL means nothing. The comparison to Mukhamadullin is absurd. Cagnoni is a foot shorter and a dogshit skater compared to Shak. He will never impact a NHL game defensively the way Mukhamadullin can.

Holy Hodgeperbole! He is not a dogshit skater compared to Muhk. He’s actually a very good skater with great form — what he lacks is the first step which is very fixable.

 

[Grinner]

Sign me up for that, assuming they all pan out. Who cares about prospects when you have four 1st rounders on your blueline?

I don't think we have what it takes to land Willander. Canucks are looking for a top six center this offseason and he's their only attractive chip.

If the Sharks miss out on the top pick. We'd certainly would have something they'd covet.

 

[sampler]

Cagnoni won't ever be a top pair player just due to his reach (I think that is more critical than pure height) but if he can be a good second/third pair puck mover that is great on the power play, there's definitely room on a winning roster for that. Maybe he pans out, maybe he doesn't.

One thing he does have going for him that someone like Hutson does not have is mass. 5-9 and 180 pounds as a pro athlete means you're built like a fire hydrant, and he could probably put on more weight.

I hear you, though I guess I look at all the undersized guys who have definitely had (or are having) outstanding NHL careers, and I dont see why Cagnoni cannot match them. Hughes, Krug, Spurgeon, fox, hutson... They all have a similar physical profile, and Cagnoni's progression seems in line with theirs. I definitely understand that the success rate for guys of his size is low. That's why the examples are so notable. No one can list all the 6'1 solid NHL D. But, just because it's an uphill fight doesn't mean its not possible.

On the draft thread, there was talk of trading our #3 pick for a 5'9" defensemen. The main criticism? We could lose him two years later. Clearly, regardless of size, if you can play, you can play.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Probably because there aren't many smurf offensemen enjoying NHL careers to begin with. I wonder why?

You can literally count established D below 5’10” with 1 finger. Spurgeon. No other D listed at 5’9”or below played more than sporadic games.

 

[gaucholoco3]

Is there any actual data that backs the skating criticisms? I thought he looked pretty quick, and I didn't see skating as the issue. I saw him struggling to get pucks out, win corner battles, get good net front tie ups and positioning, etc that made him look overmatched. Clearly, he needs to improve those areas....

I also saw him hesitant to shoot on the PP and still figuring out the offensive part of the game at the NHL level too. Of course, that's to be expected when debuting in the NHL with a terrible team and no practice time to make it smoother, but I dont read much into that.

He is not a bad skater but he is not Elite. At his size you need to be Elite to make it in the NHL.

 

[gaucholoco3]

On the flipside, Cagnoni at the same height is heftier and stronger at 180 (vs Hutson at 162).

That doesn’t help his reach. Weight will help in battles he will just lose. It would be better if he were lighter and more agile. His goal is to never be in a battle to begin with.

 

[SJS1991]

That doesn’t help his reach. Weight will help in battles he will just lose. It would be better if he were lighter and more agile. His goal is to never be in a battle to begin with.

Ala Will Smith this year... he started to understand he needed to us his skill and avoid battles on the boards. He is too young at this point and not strong enough (likely wont be ever).

He needs to be like Patrick Kane, out skill guys and avoid his weakness.

 

[Patty Ice]

You think he's a dogshit skater?

CAGNONI PROVING HE BELONGS | San Jose Barracuda

www.sjbarracuda.com

They sign his skating praises. And, btw, he was passed up for the WHL draft. Like, even the junior teams thought he was too small. Oops, only led the whole league in scoring. Then was supposed to be forced to stay in juniors, but forced his way to stay in the Pros. Then, 3rd in the league in D scoring, and QB of the AHL's #1 PP.

of course, none of that adversity, and the success to overcome it, necessarily tranlates into NHL success. But, the kid clearly has serious guts, and sees naysayers as motivators. And, I dont think his skating is what would hold him back. Just pure physicality, defensive positioning, and battles would hold him back. Unlike Bordeleau or Gush, I think Cagnoni's offense translates just fine. Like Gush, only the physical play and defense would hold him back and he doesnt seem like the type to allow that to stop him.

I'm trying to stay out of this but this narrative they're trying to paint of him being a dog shit skater is hilarious.

 

[Patty Ice]

View attachment 1020668
View attachment 1020669

There's more to skating than top speed

 

[matt trick]

As a 5'9 guy myself, I've always really admired Jared Spurgeon, and followed him a bit as he was playing for the Spokane Chiefs while I was at Gonzaga. While tiny for the NHL, he was the rare small two-way defenseman, as opposed to offensive dynamo.

Spurgeon became a NHL regular (23 games in AHL, 53 in NHL) since his D+3 season. He had 12 points, but was recognized for his smart defensive play and effective puck moving. The following year he had 23 in 70. I think on a higher scoring team he'd have produced a bit more. It wasn't until his D+8 year he paced for 30 points (26/67), and has continued to do so ever since.

Until the past two years (injury and his 34+ season), he's been a very good skater (72 in speed, 89th in 20mph speed bursts in 2021) and he's very agile. In addition, he's very good at defending with his stick and thinks the game at a very high level. His leadership and work ethic are top class. He's 5'9 and 167, and looks way too lean to be a hockey player. Cags is clearly a very hard worker as well, but is he in that top 1-3% level that Spurgeon looks to be? No idea.

Torey Krug is probably a better comparable, but in his prime there would be a spot for Jared Spurgeon on every team in the league regardless of system. While the same is largely true of Krug, you need to build intentionally around Krug. I'd also say these two played in a more physically imposing league. Krug, was undrafted, but made the Bruins in his 'would be' D+5 after three years at MSU and a year with the Providence Bruins of the AHL. Krug had a five pounds on Cagnoni, but at 20, I imagine Cags can add another 5 (or even 10) pounds of muscle.

From what I've seen, Cagnoni doesn't have the sthe elusiveness of either, nor does he have Spurgeon's top speed or defensive stickwork, nor Krug's shot, yet. He's not going to be Hughes or Hutson, but if can develop something resembling Krug or Spurgeon it's a home run. If he develops into Gostisbere, that'd be tremendous for his career, and a great outcome for fourth round pick, but probably not a guy who you win a cup with playing major minutes.

If we only add one top 4 vet dman, and Dickison is returned to juniors after 9 games, I do think Cags will get 20+ games (injuries, Ferraro/Lilj/Thrun/Desharnis potentially traded). I'm not sure he's a long-term asset, but I do think he'll have an NHL career of some kind.

 

[jarr92]

There's more to skating than top speed

I totally agree with you, and Luca is definitely not a "bad" skater as someone said above. I'd say he's a pretty good skater that lacks top speed. Hutson is elite in all areas of skating. In terms of small Dmen, Cagnoni is similar to Spurgeon and a bit below Girard with skating.

 

[Patty Ice]

View attachment 1020812
I totally agree with you, and Luca is definitely not a "bad" skater as someone said above. I'd say he's a pretty good skater that lacks top speed. Hutson is elite in all areas of skating. In terms of small Dmen, Cagnoni is similar to Spurgeon and a bit below Girard with skating.

I can agree with that assessment. I think he needs to work on his acceleration more, something which he has made reference to last off-season as an area of improvement. He had been working on his first 3 steps. His ability to "walk the line" is top notch as well as his elusiveness. He sees the ice so well and with continued improvements working out his skating mechanics, I like his chances to be a player in the league whether he's in SJ or elsewhere. I hope it's here because he is fun to watch, especially with what we have going.

 

[SharksFan1992]

I think the greater point isn't that in a single game or even a season... that Cagnoni's size will be an issue per-say. Its the idea in a seven game series... x4... that he will get exposed and be a liability. More so if the whole reason youre there in the first place is because he is scoring at a crazy level. He will need to play because you need that production, as you are built on it.

Playoff hockey is heavy and tight. Cagnoni on defense will need to be a technician and maybe not perfect but close to it consistently... especially in the playoffs and i think Hodge's point is thats not realistic. He will likely get tired... technique will suffer... and he is getting dog walked in his zone.

The reason GMs and scouts in general like big guys, is because when technique fails them... they have something else to access to bail them out.

Exactly. Pronger could fall on his bum and you still wouldn't get past him.

 

[LinkGaetz23]

I think the greater point isn't that in a single game or even a season... that Cagnoni's size will be an issue per-say. Its the idea in a seven game series... x4... that he will get exposed and be a liability. More so if the whole reason youre there in the first place is because he is scoring at a crazy level. He will need to play because you need that production, as you are built on it.

Playoff hockey is heavy and tight. Cagnoni on defense will need to be a technician and maybe not perfect but close to it consistently... especially in the playoffs and i think Hodge's point is thats not realistic. He will likely get tired... technique will suffer... and he is getting dog walked in his zone.

The reason GMs and scouts in general like big guys, is because when technique fails them... they have something else to access to bail them out.

Krug had >22 TOI in a 7 game SCF series where the Bruins were good sized favorites in G7. I don't think you can just write off smaller players in the playoffs. They are far and few between because they are up against it from day 1 but if they stick in the league as good players they're generally going to be good players in the playoffs. Plenty of big players who have reputations as poor playoff performers too.

 

[TheBeard]

I don’t get why people want to keep giving back assets for a player who only looked good playing top line minutes on the worst team in the cap era. He is not good and Grier did a great job not falling into the trap by handing him a long term deal.

I admit I was fooled by Zetterlund before the deadline thinking he was a core adjacent piece. After Grier traded him for what looked like a soft return I feel like my Sharks beer goggles were removed to realize he was a very flawed player.

This is how you know who actually watches the games and who just looks at the box score.

 

[timorous me]

As a 5'9 guy myself, I've always really admired Jared Spurgeon, and followed him a bit as he was playing for the Spokane Chiefs while I was at Gonzaga. While tiny for the NHL, he was the rare small two-way defenseman, as opposed to offensive dynamo.

Spurgeon became a NHL regular (23 games in AHL, 53 in NHL) since his D+3 season. He had 12 points, but was recognized for his smart defensive play and effective puck moving. The following year he had 23 in 70. I think on a higher scoring team he'd have produced a bit more. It wasn't until his D+8 year he paced for 30 points (26/67), and has continued to do so ever since.

Until the past two years (injury and his 34+ season), he's been a very good skater (72 in speed, 89th in 20mph speed bursts in 2021) and he's very agile. In addition, he's very good at defending with his stick and thinks the game at a very high level. His leadership and work ethic are top class. He's 5'9 and 167, and looks way too lean to be a hockey player. Cags is clearly a very hard worker as well, but is he in that top 1-3% level that Spurgeon looks to be? No idea.

Torey Krug is probably a better comparable, but in his prime there would be a spot for Jared Spurgeon on every team in the league regardless of system. While the same is largely true of Krug, you need to build intentionally around Krug. I'd also say these two played in a more physically imposing league. Krug, was undrafted, but made the Bruins in his 'would be' D+5 after three years at MSU and a year with the Providence Bruins of the AHL. Krug had a five pounds on Cagnoni, but at 20, I imagine Cags can add another 5 (or even 10) pounds of muscle.

From what I've seen, Cagnoni doesn't have the sthe elusiveness of either, nor does he have Spurgeon's top speed or defensive stickwork, nor Krug's shot, yet. He's not going to be Hughes or Hutson, but if can develop something resembling Krug or Spurgeon it's a home run. If he develops into Gostisbere, that'd be tremendous for his career, and a great outcome for fourth round pick, but probably not a guy who you win a cup with playing major minutes.

If we only add one top 4 vet dman, and Dickison is returned to juniors after 9 games, I do think Cags will get 20+ games (injuries, Ferraro/Lilj/Thrun/Desharnis potentially traded). I'm not sure he's a long-term asset, but I do think he'll have an NHL career of some kind.

Man, I just thought it felt like Spurgeon had been around forever, but the fact that he's going to turn 36 this year has me reeling a bit, lol. Always been a fan of his—I hope he can get to 1000 games next season with the Wild.

 

[Hodge]

Instead of reacquiring Zetterlund and signing him for 4x4 we should just offer that contract (realistically more like 4x4.5) to Trent Frederic. Only a year older than Zetts but actually brings size and physicality. Could probably score 20 on our second line.

 

[vortexx]

Instead of reacquiring Zetterlund and signing him for 4x4 we should just offer that contract (realistically more like 4x4.5) to Trent Frederic. Only a year older than Zetts but actually brings size and physicality. Could probably score 20 on our second line.

Agreed, the talk of reacquiring Zetterlund is silly, not going to happen. I like the idea of Frederic at that term a lot. Watching the playoffs you can just see how physical it really is and the way you need to play. The Sharks truly lack any player of that type in the top 6, you can argue Eklund/Celebrini but they are still so young and not much size.

 

[Jargon]

Agreed, the talk of reacquiring Zetterlund is silly, not going to happen. I like the idea of Frederic at that term a lot. Watching the playoffs you can just see how physical it really is and the way you need to play. The Sharks truly lack any player of that type in the top 6, you can argue Eklund/Celebrini but they are still so young and not much size.

Yeah, we really need at LEAST one of Chernyshov, Musty, Haltunnen, etc. to work out (my bet is on Cherny currently). It would really help. Also kind of explains Grier’s hope and prayer for Ostapchuk.

I have a feeling Celebrini will be a playoff monster.

 

[SJS1991]

Krug had >22 TOI in a 7 game SCF series where the Bruins were good sized favorites in G7. I don't think you can just write off smaller players in the playoffs. They are far and few between because they are up against it from day 1 but if they stick in the league as good players they're generally going to be good players in the playoffs. Plenty of big players who have reputations as poor playoff performers too.

Didn't write Cagnoni off at all... speaking to just numbers/odds at this point. Like you say "few and far between", could Cagnoni beat the odds? Sure, sports are basically all about this... heck in the NHL, the odds for any one team to win the Cup are crazy low.

The issue is just that Cagnoni has a very narrow pathway to staying in the NHL. And like i mentioned earlier, if this team gets Schaefer... that will be a massive blow to his chance staying here. Because part of that narrow pathway is Cagnoni being a PP1 quarterback.

 

[LinkGaetz23]

Didn't write Cagnoni off at all... speaking to just numbers/odds at this point. Like you say "few and far between", could Cagnoni beat the odds? Sure, sports are basically all about this... heck in the NHL, the odds for any one team to win the Cup are crazy low.

The issue is just that Cagnoni has a very narrow pathway to staying in the NHL. And like i mentioned earlier, if this team gets Schaefer... that will be a massive blow to his chance staying here. Because part of that narrow pathway is Cagnoni being a PP1 quarterback.

If you took a random 5'9 person from the general population, they'd be significantly less likely than a 6'2 person to become an NHL D. The odds are stacked against the 5'9 guy. But what happens when you gain information that 5'9 person tears up the WHL? That's new information. You need to update your priors. And then that same 5'9 person makes the AHL all-rookie team and scores .8 PPG in his D+2 year in the AHL. You need to update your priors again. All of a sudden the odds are a lot different than just some random 5'9 person. Sure, the odds were stacked against Cagnoni when he was 15 years old. But each new bit of information changes the odds he will become an NHLer. While there are certainly big flaws with some of these player probability models floating around, they all seem to think Cagnoni is a surefire NHLer. That's a little too high on him, but there's signal there. When you produce at that level at a young age as a D, it's rare and pretty likely you have enough to your game to stick in the league.

Re: Schaefer, there's only a 25.5% chance we get the number 1 pick. Maybe there's a small chance someone passes on him for Misa so let's say there's a 30% chance we end up with him. Then there's a pretty decent chance he's sent back to the juniors as he didn't even play a full season there this year. Then there's even the small chance he doesn't pan out as hoped for. And even then, if he pans out as hoped for and is ready early, Cagnoni could still carve out a role on the team like Girard has in Colorado despite Makar's presence. Maybe every single one of those things will break against Cagnoni. It's certainly possible but really not worth stressing over given this team needs as much talent and depth of talent as possible at pretty much every position.