Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[matt trick]

Well that is f***ing phenomenal!

 

[STL Shark]

I mean, blaming these guys for being passed around and not winning is pretty ironic when you’re pumping the tires of Mikael Granlund in the process, who these claims apply to even more so than the Hawks guys; Teuvo has won a Cup, Jones has been traded a few times but has always commanded big returns, etc.

Really, you’re better off just making a vague appeal to vibes to say Granlund is a better mentor or leader than the Hawks vets.

I'm not making anything vague. I am flat out saying that I don't think Jones, Hall, Donato, Bertuzzi, etc. are good leaders and that I think that matters more than just a random assortment of "skill" when it comes to development of youngsters. Can poll about anyone in the league, and leadership and culture builder is assuredly not a superlative that will be tossed around with the Chicago players mentioned, while it is near the top of words used to describe Granlund.

Won't see Granlund pouting or throwing his teammates under the bus like Jones in Chicago. Didn't see him demanding a trade out of a situation like Jones in Columbus. Not hanging on for his NHL life like Donato prior to this year.

Culture and leadership matter. It doesn't fit on your models, but it's real.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I'm not making anything vague. I am flat out saying that I don't think Jones, Hall, Donato, Bertuzzi, etc. are good leaders and that I think that matters more than just a random assortment of "skill" when it comes to development of youngsters. Can poll about anyone in the league, and leadership and culture builder is assuredly not a superlative that will be tossed around with the Chicago players mentioned, while it is near the top of words used to describe Granlund.

Won't see Granlund pouting or throwing his teammates under the bus like Jones in Chicago. Didn't see him demanding a trade out of a situation like Jones in Columbus. Not hanging on for his NHL life like Donato prior to this year.

Culture and leadership matter. It doesn't fit on your models, but it's real.

Seriously, Granlund's above-and-beyond mentorship of all our kids has been thoroughly documented. It's unquestionable. The guys on the Hawks are just guys.

 

[coooldude]

We've had this recurring debate on these boards whether culture matters, whether losing cultures develop or whether skill matters more, etc. etc.

It's definitively both.

• Yes, the team culture will be fine when we are better with better players and we start winning.
• Yes, culture matters even when you're losing and even when the "leaders" are not proven winners.
• Yes, good players will be good no matter what.
• Yes, good players still need mentors, even mentors who are well past their prime and/or have never won a cup, and those guys might make them better than they would have been.
• The skills to be a successful professional athlete do not stop and start when these guys jump the boards. There's a huge amount of lifestyle and skill to learn.

I think anyone who has played team sports knows this intuitively, especially if played at a higher competitive level. Culture and leadership changes with success, but culture and leadership does matter while it's changing.

 

[Juxtaposer]

We've had this recurring debate on these boards whether culture matters, whether losing cultures develop or whether skill matters more, etc. etc.

It's definitively both.

• Yes, the team culture will be fine when we are better with better players and we start winning.
• Yes, culture matters even when you're losing and even when the "leaders" are not proven winners.
• Yes, good players will be good no matter what.
• Yes, good players still need mentors, even mentors who are well past their prime and/or have never won a cup, and those guys might make them better than they would have been.
• The skills to be a successful professional athlete do not stop and start when these guys jump the boards. There's a huge amount of lifestyle and skill to learn.

I think anyone who has played team sports knows this intuitively, especially if played at a higher competitive level. Culture and leadership changes with success, but culture and leadership does matter while it's changing.

Any environment, not just sports, is hugely dependent on culture. Even like, an office job. Having guys who show you the ropes and whom you can just have fun with during difficult times makes all the difference.

I love to see the stuff like Celebrini and Smith messing around playing fake basketball before a game, the team doing silly little events like curling, that stuff really makes a difference.

 

[TheBeard]

We've had this recurring debate on these boards whether culture matters, whether losing cultures develop or whether skill matters more, etc. etc.

It's definitively both.

• Yes, the team culture will be fine when we are better with better players and we start winning.
• Yes, culture matters even when you're losing and even when the "leaders" are not proven winners.
• Yes, good players will be good no matter what.
• Yes, good players still need mentors, even mentors who are well past their prime and/or have never won a cup, and those guys might make them better than they would have been.
• The skills to be a successful professional athlete do not stop and start when these guys jump the boards. There's a huge amount of lifestyle and skill to learn.

I think anyone who has played team sports knows this intuitively, especially if played at a higher competitive level. Culture and leadership changes with success, but culture and leadership does matter while it's changing.

I never liked wanting to be a "it's clear who didn't play organized sports" guy, but it totally applies in this conversation. Professionals or not, the culture makes a difference, ESPECIALLY when losing. Having other reasons to come to the rink and play for your teammates beyond it being your job. Enjoying coming to the rink and not being afraid to pick the brains of the guys who've been around for a long time. Even the guys who were highly drafted that found ways to stick around despite not reaching the levels of success both individually and on a team that almost all high drafted players assume would come sooner rather than later.

A lot of prospects were immensely talented coming into the NHL and flame out and a majority of them it's not a talent issue.

Granted I stopped playing pro at 15 so I don't have the same level of understanding as guys still playing.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I don't know how Sharks's fans are still debating this. Doesn't everyone remember that Jeff Friesen interview where he talked about how horrible the culture was before Darryl Sutter? Obviously, it matters!

 

[hohosaregood]

I agree that culture matters but realistically, the difference right now is that Celebrini is a match up independent 1C and Bedard is a top 6 scorer.

 

[TheBeard]

I don't know how Sharks's fans are still debating this. Doesn't everyone remember that Jeff Friesen interview where he talked about how horrible the culture was before Darryl Sutter? Obviously, it matters!

I've been a Washington Commanders (redskins) fan for my entire lift and that whole era under Dan Snyder was just one horrendous year after another. Why? The culture was as toxic as you could get in professional sports. It literally changed in one year once Snyder was ousted and the proper people were put in place.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I've been a Washington Commanders (redskins) fan for my entire lift and that whole era under Dan Snyder was just one horrendous year after another. Why? The culture was as toxic as you could get in professional sports. It literally changed in one year once Snyder was ousted and the proper people were put in place.

I agree with this so I think it depends on if you trust Grier to be a culture setter and trust his ability to navigate that through this rebuild. I currently feel he's given more reason for me to trust in him on that than not but I get that that's vibes-based more than anything concrete.

 

[Cas]

Duehr has been waived.

He's just kind of there, so whatever.

 

[Jargon]

Duehr has been waived.

He's just kind of there, so whatever.

I liked him in spurts but at this point it’s hard to really care about any but a handful of guys on this team.

 

[sampler]

I liked him in spurts but at this point it’s hard to really care about any but a handful of guys on this team.

Yep, whatever... They could waive Dyl, Grund, goodie, sturm, kunin, kostin... and I'd yawn.

The only guys on the whole team worth actually watching are Celly, Smith ,Eklund, zetterlund, and to a lesser extent, toffoli, wennberg, walman, and Mukh.

Beyond that, ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........

On a side note: I am anxiously awaiting the deadline. I know it may just be a few duds (mid/late picks for depth guys), but I am holding out hope for a young D to come in.

Functionally 3 more first rounders this year (if you think of #33 as a first), coupled with all the guys in the system already gives so much fodder for a deal. I cannot picture Grier just adding a few more liljgrens or Cecis off the trash heap and going into next year with the functionally same D corps.

I am also surprised they called up schuldt and not cagnoni. After all, a couple of games of cags in the NHL level could raise his trade value if they want to center a deal around him. He is the 2nd leading scoring defenseman in the AHL at age 20. I gotta figure, despite his size, he has significant value. Lane Hutson is the obvious comparison, same size and style, and I'm pretty sure most of the 32 teams would love to have hutson on their blueline.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I'm not making anything vague. I am flat out saying that I don't think Jones, Hall, Donato, Bertuzzi, etc. are good leaders and that I think that matters more than just a random assortment of "skill" when it comes to development of youngsters. Can poll about anyone in the league, and leadership and culture builder is assuredly not a superlative that will be tossed around with the Chicago players mentioned, while it is near the top of words used to describe Granlund.

Won't see Granlund pouting or throwing his teammates under the bus like Jones in Chicago. Didn't see him demanding a trade out of a situation like Jones in Columbus. Not hanging on for his NHL life like Donato prior to this year.

Culture and leadership matter. It doesn't fit on your models, but it's real.

Okay, so then make proper references to the actual evidence you feel supports the claim that Granlund is a good leader. I may or may not agree with it, but there is at least some logic behind what you’re bringing up here. Where the logic does not hold is trashing these guys for not winning or bouncing around when those criticisms apply just as much or more to Granlund.

 

[gaucholoco3]

I am also surprised they called up schuldt and not cagnoni. After all, a couple of games of cags in the NHL level could raise his trade value if they want to center a deal around him. He is the 2nd leading scoring defenseman in the AHL at age 20. I gotta figure, despite his size, he has significant value. Lane Hutson is the obvious comparison, same size and style, and I'm pretty sure most of the 32 teams would love to have hutson on their blueline.

He would get destroyed in NHL minutes on this Sharks team. It is also a reward for a player who has been great for the Cuda. By giving these guys some NHL time it will help to sign more of them in subsequent seasons.

Okay, so then make proper references to the actual evidence you feel supports the claim that Granlund is a good leader. I may or may not agree with it, but there is at least some logic behind what you’re bringing up here. Where the logic does not hold is trashing these guys for not winning or bouncing around when those criticisms apply just as much or more to Granlund.

It’s not like Granlund was acquired because he was a leader. He was a pure cap dump in the EK trade. The Sharks just got lucky that he embraced a leadership role.

 

[TheBeard]

I agree with this so I think it depends on if you trust Grier to be a culture setter and trust his ability to navigate that through this rebuild. I currently feel he's given more reason for me to trust in him on that than not but I get that that's vibes-based more than anything concrete.

I mean the culture here as never that bad to begin with, but the complacency for losing because the front office and the fans excuse it because we're rebuilding and losing is good for future potential stars could have negative repercussions. Chicago is a good example. Vital pieces wanting out and just a generally miserable environment it seems.

Okay, so then make proper references to the actual evidence you feel supports the claim that Granlund is a good leader. I may or may not agree with it, but there is at least some logic behind what you’re bringing up here. Where the logic does not hold is trashing these guys for not winning or bouncing around when those criticisms apply just as much or more to Granlund.

I mean the kids talked about it quite a lot

Sharks’ Young Guns on Losing Granlund’s Leadership

And the San Jose Sharks move on. On Saturday, the Sharks sent alternate captain and leading scorer Mikael Granlund, along with No. 2 defenseman Cody Ceci to the Dallas Stars for a 2025 first-round pick and a 2025 conditional fourth. Granlund also paced San Jose forwards in Overall, Power Play...

sanjosehockeynow.com

Granlund's experience, leadership to be counted on by Finland at 4 Nations Face-Off | NHL.com

Sharks center, veteran of international stage, ready for next ‘proud moment’

www.nhl.com

Mikael Granlund a Natural Mentor for Will Smith (+)

Mikael Granlund is there for Will Smith. He was there for Smith after Saturday’s practice, chatting and setting each other up for one-timers. #TheFutureIsTeal staying late on the ice after morning skate, last 5 guys: Granlund is feeding (potential future linemate?) Will Smith passes...

sanjosehockeynow.com

 

[sampler]

He would get destroyed in NHL minutes on this Sharks team. It is also a reward for a player who has been great for the Cuda. By giving these guys some NHL time it will help to sign more of them in subsequent seasons.


It’s not like Granlund was acquired because he was a leader. He was a pure cap dump in the EK trade. The Sharks just got lucky that he embraced a leadership role.

He might get destroyed.... or maybe not. Seems like hes earned his look. Of course, I get your logic on schuldt too. Kinda like giving potaralski his chance.

I kinda wanna see what cags can do at the NHL level. Hutson is actually a bit smaller even and he may well end up with the calder trophy. Who's to say that cagnoni can't perform similarly. He dominated juniors and has had a stellar rookie season in the AHL. If the sharks are looking to add a solid mid 20s established NHLer, having a top young D available in return makes the deal far better.

Whats the downside? he is lit up? he gets hurt? nah.... even if he struggles, it seems a good play with nothing to lose.

 

[Sleeper Shark]

It’s not like Granlund was acquired because he was a leader. He was a pure cap dump in the EK trade. The Sharks just got lucky that he embraced a leadership role.

Don't you think that's a bit of a disservice to both Grier and to Granlund? As thrilled as we all were to find out the the EK contract was moveable, I would think that including Granny in the trade was a bit more thought out than the ol' "chuck him on the pile" mentality.

Granlund bombed in PIT during some brutal personal issues that have been discussed on this thread and others several times before. Prior, he was a very good two way 2C on playoff teams in NSH and MIN. That doesn't just disappear overnight, and Grier knows that. I think he got Granlund at a discount with the reasonable expectation that he would work his way back to the mean given the opportunity to do so after a markedly bad fit situation in PIT.

Also, to not expect Grier to do his homework on Granlund - the person - and not just Granlund - the hockey player - is pretty shortsighted and discredits a lot of the work done in this organization over the last couple of years. What I've really liked about Grier, outside of the purposeful sense of direction he's finally given this franchise, is the attention he's paid to surrounding the kids with high-quality people.

 

[Star Platinum]

And frankly, Granlund's possession numbers were pretty terrible too.

Really the only issues on the team right now are the bottom pairing and the bottom-6 (and the goaltending, obviously). Celebrini at 64% xGF since the break is silly.

I will always remember today as the day I learned that we solved our Top 4 defensive issues

 

[Star Platinum]

I don't know how Sharks's fans are still debating this. Doesn't everyone remember that Jeff Friesen interview where he talked about how horrible the culture was before Darryl Sutter? Obviously, it matters!

It was all Drew Remenda's fault

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

I mean the culture here as never that bad to begin with, but the complacency for losing because the front office and the fans excuse it because we're rebuilding and losing is good for future potential stars could have negative repercussions. Chicago is a good example. Vital pieces wanting out and just a generally miserable environment it seems.


I mean the kids talked about it quite a lot

Sharks’ Young Guns on Losing Granlund’s Leadership

And the San Jose Sharks move on. On Saturday, the Sharks sent alternate captain and leading scorer Mikael Granlund, along with No. 2 defenseman Cody Ceci to the Dallas Stars for a 2025 first-round pick and a 2025 conditional fourth. Granlund also paced San Jose forwards in Overall, Power Play...

sanjosehockeynow.com

Granlund's experience, leadership to be counted on by Finland at 4 Nations Face-Off | NHL.com

Sharks center, veteran of international stage, ready for next ‘proud moment’

www.nhl.com

Mikael Granlund a Natural Mentor for Will Smith (+)

Mikael Granlund is there for Will Smith. He was there for Smith after Saturday’s practice, chatting and setting each other up for one-timers. #TheFutureIsTeal staying late on the ice after morning skate, last 5 guys: Granlund is feeding (potential future linemate?) Will Smith passes...

sanjosehockeynow.com

Again, this is fine evidence to cite. I don’t even care about the general debate on whether mentorship is real or matters. All I’m saying is, it doesn’t make sense to diss the Chicago veterans for not having won, or bouncing around the league, when the same exact criticism applies even more harshly to Granlund. That’s all.

 

[Star Platinum]

I am also surprised they called up schuldt and not cagnoni. After all, a couple of games of cags in the NHL level could raise his trade value if they want to center a deal around him. He is the 2nd leading scoring defenseman in the AHL at age 20. I gotta figure, despite his size, he has significant value. Lane Hutson is the obvious comparison, same size and style, and I'm pretty sure most of the 32 teams would love to have hutson on their blueline.

Cagnoni's time, if it comes at all this season, will be after the deadline and is dependent on the Sharks moving a LHD.

 

[sampler]

Don't you think that's a bit of a disservice to both Grier and to Granlund? As thrilled as we all were to find out the the EK contract was moveable, I would think that including Granny in the trade was a bit more thought out than the ol' "chuck him on the pile" mentality.

Granlund bombed in PIT during some brutal personal issues that have been discussed on this thread and others several times before. Prior, he was a very good two way 2C on playoff teams in NSH and MIN. That doesn't just disappear overnight, and Grier knows that. I think he got Granlund at a discount with the reasonable expectation that he would work his way back to the mean given the opportunity to do so after a markedly bad fit situation in PIT.

Also, to not expect Grier to do his homework on Granlund - the person - and not just Granlund - the hockey player - is pretty shortsighted and discredits a lot of the work done in this organization over the last couple of years. What I've really liked about Grier, outside of the purposeful sense of direction he's finally given this franchise, is the attention he's paid to surrounding the kids with high-quality people.

Granny was acquired for one reason only: cap dump. That's it. Hoffman and ruuta too. His success in teal, although not wholly shocking, was just a bonus. In truth, getting a 1st out of him is a big win from the EK trade.

As for leadership skills, I think granny did a wonderful job there, but I dont think it really mattered that much in terms of locker room presence. I think Warso is the key there, and bringing in toffoli too.

As for possession metrics, the sharks dont possess the puck because they are toooooo small!!! Teams with their top 6 forwards all 6' or less and all but two at 190lbs or less are not gunna succeed in a puck possession, cycle type system. We simply cannot win battles consistently and possess pucks so transition and quickness is the only way to play with that kind of make up. This is why I cannot remember a shift in the O zone lasting 1.5 or 2 mins. The sharks of old did that all the time with jumbo, hertl, meier, patty, Kane, Cooch, Ward, Heatley, Clowe... all roughly +/- 6'2, 220 (+/- an inch or two and 10 lbs). Guys with that kind of size and skill can dominate a shift and possess the puck forever, not to menion burns' size. Thats a big reason why the sharks were so successful for so long.

Sharks have to get bigger and start stacking up guys in the 6'2, 220 range. I wouldnt be surprised if their size is also partly why they struggle so much in the 3rd. They lose battles, and if they stop skating as much or get tired, they find themselves hemmed in for days. This is especially important up front since forwards tend to possess the puck more than D, particularly in the O zone. This is why chernyshov, musty, haltunnen, and Bystedt are so important and why I dont mind moving Cagnoni, cardwell, gush, bordy for some better size. I would even be willing to part with eklund if the right deal came along.

 

[TheBeard]

As for leadership skills, I think granny did a wonderful job there, but I dont think it really mattered that much in terms of locker room presence. I think Warso is the key there, and bringing in toffoli too.

Whut?

 

[matt trick]

I'd be hesitant to move Ferraro without getting a 1st (perhaps giving up COL 2nd in exchange or as payment for retention). At that price the value is so ridiculous you let him go. You can trade him for a second next deadline or at any point during the year once you know what you have. We'll also have the retention option next year (though might want it for Walman, Liljigren, or Wennberg).

Otherwise, I'd rather go into next season knowing that we have Walman, Ferraro, Muk, Liljigren, and hopefully 1 top 4 RHD addition. If Dickinson or Schaefer are ready, one of them, and Thrun or Vlasic (might need his cap) fill out the roster. What UFA d-men are better than Ferraro? Gavrikov, Kovacevic, Ekblad, Fabbro, Chychrun, and Provorov. Get shut out of those six and next year will be bottom two again (I think it will be anyway, but I'd love to not waive the white flag at the end of the summer)

If we end up with Hagens, Dickinson's not ready, and get shut out in free agency, we're going to wish Ferraro wasn't moved. For a 1st, done. But if all we're getting is a 2nd, I feel confident that offer will be there next deadline.