Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

[weastern bias]

We don't need offensive defensemen. We need defensemen who can defend.

We actually need both

 

[Hodge]

We actually need both

Sure, if you can get both in the same player. Schaefer could be that guy which is probably why we traded Blackwood ASAP and entered full-on tank mode.

But if you have to choose between one or the other, which is typically the case in the trade/UFA market, we need more Cecis and fewer Liljegrens.

 

[NiWa]

We need defensive defensemen that can skate, handle the puck and at least do a clean outlet pass.

 

[weastern bias]

Sure, if you can get both in the same player. Schaefer could be that guy which is probably why we traded Blackwood ASAP and entered full-on tank mode.

But if you have to choose between one or the other, which is typically the case in the trade/UFA market, we need more Cecis and fewer Liljegrens.

Claims to want defensemen who can defend, wants more Cecis

We need both kinds of players, the do-it-all Dman is super rare and is likely only to be found in the draft, which means they would also need years to develop, if we want to make a meaningful impact on next year's roster in terms of team results and winning games we need multiple additions on defense that provide improvements on both ends of the ice

We need "offensemen" just as badly as we need shutdown D

 

[NiWa]

Claims to want defensemen who can defend, wants more Cecis

We need both kinds of players, the do-it-all Dman is super rare and is likely only to be found in the draft, which means they would also need years to develop, if we want to make a meaningful impact on next year's roster in terms of team results and winning games we need multiple additions on defense that provide improvements on both ends of the ice

We need "offensemen" just as badly as we need shutdown D

Hope we load up on more seconds, I feel like we could throw some good darts at the D's still available in that range.
In the late first, early second range, could find a good second pairing PMDs (that can defend).
Late second you can find good stay-at-home types that can skate and at least have potential for outlet pass.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

i think the bigger issue is the sharks would only be able to do a futures package

Maybe but what is Vancouver even looking for in a Pettersson trade?

 

[coooldude]

We need a better Walman and we need a better one of each of Rutta/Thrun/Ceci/Ferraro. Dick is 3-5 years away from being a better Ferraro/maybe Walman and, optimistically, Mukh is 1-2 away from being a clearly better Ferraro/Thrun.

We don't need offensive defensemen. We need defensemen who can defend.

We need defensive defensemen that can skate, handle the puck and at least do a clean outlet pass.

Both, really. Specifically, we need defensemen who can turn defense to offense. That means they need to play defense, and they also need to be able to make clean passes out of the zone. Right now Ferraro, Rutta, and to a lesser extent Ceci can play some defense, but can't really convert turnovers to offense, hence the wild flings up the boards and getting hemmed in. Meanwhile Lily and Thrun can inconsistently get us out of the zone but they're also more inconsistent at the defense part. Walman is the best of the bunch at both but we really shouldn't want him to be our best D.

Separately, if we're going to be a very good team and not just better, we need high end offensive skill in the OZ, whether that's shots like Walman or better playmaking, of which we really only have Cagnoni in the pipe. Really need Schaefer, but chance of that can't be better than 50/50 at this point.

 

[matt trick]

Lol if this conversation doesn’t make Schaefer the undisputed 1st overall for SJ I don’t know what will. @OrrNumber4 was it you who used to talk about Wilson always acquiring two players to do two jobs? And how we needed to prioritize the rare player who can do two jobs. #1 dmen are a great example of that as are selke caliber #1 Cs. Maybe there’s an argument for puck moving goalies for that matter.

Schaefer seems like a perfect example of that. He and Dickinson fit whatever a team wants to do- big, skate fast, jump into the play, QB/trigger a PP, move the puck efficiently, good in front of the net/in the corners. Dickinson doesn’t have elite handles think fast; but if he figures that out, he’ll have it all. His frame can likely handle a lot of muscle, I could see his reach, size, skating, and strength resulting in a lock down guy. Bring back Larry Robinson! Celebrini doesn’t have the height, but he looks like a guy who can play any style, whereas you cater a style for Bedard.

I think Schaefer is the best draft eligible dman since Dahlin.

To the topic as hand. I don’t see us upgrading on Walman without significant assets or a top pick. We need a good complimentary for him, and one for Muk. I’d be thrilled with both, but will settle for one. Liljigren with Ferraro (until he’s replaced by Dickinson) is sufficient on the third line. If we get Schaefer, hopefully one of him, Muk, or BDE can play right side because I do think Walman is worth keeping while then young D grow. If Liljigren is your 5/6 dman, you’re content with that though Walman looks like a #3 on a playoff team, especially if your top two guys are two-way.

Kovacevic is my pick for free agency. I think he’d look good with either Walman or Muk.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Would you risk trading 3 first round picks for Hughes

I would trade Dickinson, Musty, and a top-1 protected 2026 1st for Hughes if he became available. Plus wouldn't have to give you any salary back but Goodrow and could add lesser picks and/or prospects to make up some of the value.

If you decide to blow it up, give us a call!

 

[matt trick]

So on the Zetterlund contract discussion, does it make sense to sign him to a contract of 6-7 years? I don’t see many scenarios where we end up with 6 better wings in 6 years? In 3 Tofolli and if re-signed Granlund will be gone. It’s possible that two of Musty, Cherny, Bystedt, Graf, and Halt hit but three seems unlikely. I think it’s likely we will have one other high pick in the roster. And I imagine Grier does big game hunting for at least one big wing in free agency or via then”reverse Meier” trade.

1. Eklund
2. 2025/2026 1st
3. Acquisition
4. Prospect
5. Prospect or Trade
6. Zetts

It seems like a small overpay now (with lots of cap room) may be well worth it for the cap savings in years 4+.

Say you can get him for:
2x$3.5($7M)
3x$4M ($12M)
4x$4.5 (18)
5-7x$5(25-35M)

For a guy who’s made $5M, banking $30M probably sounds appetizing. SJ likely gets a pretty good bang for their buck when the kids start making real money.

Generally, I’d avoid long contracts for middle six players. I love the guys attitude. He’s producing, works hard, relatively young (you’d get his whole peak for a longer contract).

There’s always talk about weaponization of cap space. Any opportunity to weaponize current cap space by creating future cap space is well invested. However, the risk of Zetts falling off also exists. I also think there’s something to be said for big contracts may reduce a bit of hunger, though not sure how universal that is with players. Zetts seems like a good bet to not get complacent, but it’s really hard to say.

 

[Cas]

Also consider that Toffoli is likely to play himself out of the lineup in two years.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

So on the Zetterlund contract discussion, does it make sense to sign him to a contract of 6-7 years? I don’t see many scenarios where we end up with 6 better wings in 6 years? In 3 Tofolli and if re-signed Granlund will be gone. It’s possible that two of Musty, Cherny, Bystedt, Graf, and Halt hit but three seems unlikely. I think it’s likely we will have one other high pick in the roster. And I imagine Grier does big game hunting for at least one big wing in free agency or via then”reverse Meier” trade.

1. Eklund
2. 2025/2026 1st
3. Acquisition
4. Prospect
5. Prospect or Trade
6. Zetts

It seems like a small overpay now (with lots of cap room) may be well worth it for the cap savings in years 4+.

Say you can get him for:
2x$3.5($7M)
3x$4M ($12M)
4x$4.5 (18)
5-7x$5(25-35M)

For a guy who’s made $5M, banking $30M probably sounds appetizing. SJ likely gets a pretty good bang for their buck when the kids start making real money.

Generally, I’d avoid long contracts for middle six players. I love the guys attitude. He’s producing, works hard, relatively young (you’d get his whole peak for a longer contract).

There’s always talk about weaponization of cap space. Any opportunity to weaponize current cap space by creating future cap space is well invested. However, the risk of Zetts falling off also exists. I also think there’s something to be said for big contracts may reduce a bit of hunger, though not sure how universal that is with players. Zetts seems like a good bet to not get complacent, but it’s really hard to say.

If you think Zetterlund can be a consistent 20-25 goal guy for that long, it makes sense to try to lock that in as best as possible. I think though that the cap hit for these offers you lay out are likely going to be slightly more with a rising cap situation. One also needs to have a firm idea of what the roster is going to look like during the life of whatever contract you'd prefer to give Zetterlund. If Smith only ever establishes himself as a winger and we have Eklund and Toffoli with guys like Chernyshov, Graf, Halttunen, and Musty all probably knocking on the door in the next three years, is it worth giving Zetterlund term? I'm not sure because I don't know how much confidence to place in those prospects. I think a 4x5 deal is the most sensible and likely but there are definitely a healthy amount of acceptable options for a new Zetterlund contract to me.

 

[OrrNumber4]

The pressing need for next season is a top RHD. No one in the system can do it.

Also consider that Toffoli is likely to play himself out of the lineup in two years.

What? No. That's a leap.

 

[Hodge]

Toffoli is Pavelski lite. He never needed to skate fast so he's not going to miss losing a half step. If anything he'll probably sign another contract after this one.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Toffoli is Pavelski lite. He never needed to skate fast so he's not going to miss losing a half step. If anything he'll probably sign another contract after this one.

Toffoli probably does sign another contract after this one but any NHL player losing half a step can be the difference between them staying NHL caliber and not. It does not matter what their game is.

 

[Cas]

What? No. That's a leap.

Tyler Toffoli is a nearly 33-year-old, slow complementary winger. How long do you think those typically last?

The odds are Toffoli will not be a net positive contributor by the 26-27 season. He could beat that, players do. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

 

[weastern bias]

Toffoli is Pavelski lite. He never needed to skate fast so he's not going to miss losing a half step. If anything he'll probably sign another contract after this one.

There are so few similarities between these two players it's almost comical

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Cagnoni had shown that he can be an extremely dominant AHL player at age 19. That bodes extremely well for his NHL future. Kvetch about his size, but don't forget that his stats are exceptional.

It's important to note that a lot of Cagnoni's point totals come from the PP. He's fine 5v5 but he could be doing more. That being said I watched Cuda games when I can and he can definitely hang defensively and size hasn't hindered him too much if at all. He is a strong kid. He can get better too!

If he did what Braun did and hire a skating coach and improve his skating he can be a beast despite his stature.

 

[Hodge]

There are so few similarities between these two players it's almost comical

They're both extremely slow goal scorers who dominate with their brain and strength. Toffoli was once considered a great defensive forward just like Pavelski although that part of his game has fallen off a bit just like it did for Pavelski in his mid-30s.

 

[Zarzh]

We actually need both

Not really, ideally you'd leave room for the youth to play offensive roles so you only need one veteran offensive defenseman ahead of them.

I'd also disagree with paying a premium for a 1st line winger, that's one of the easiest mistakes to make and assuming everyone works out will create cap problems, assuming you can't get one for cheap or get a truly elite player.

 

[Star Platinum]

There are so few similarities between these two players it's almost comical

Maybe this post was supposed to be from @Hogde instead of @Hodge?

 

[jMoneyBrah]

If you think Zetterlund can be a consistent 20-25 goal guy for that long, it makes sense to try to lock that in as best as possible. I think though that the cap hit for these offers you lay out are likely going to be slightly more with a rising cap situation. One also needs to have a firm idea of what the roster is going to look like during the life of whatever contract you'd prefer to give Zetterlund. If Smith only ever establishes himself as a winger and we have Eklund and Toffoli with guys like Chernyshov, Graf, Halttunen, and Musty all probably knocking on the door in the next three years, is it worth giving Zetterlund term? I'm not sure because I don't know how much confidence to place in those prospects. I think a 4x5 deal is the most sensible and likely but there are definitely a healthy amount of acceptable options for a new Zetterlund contract to me.

I agree. If you think Zetterlund can be counted on to pop 20+ goals and 50+ points a season and be a positive player - and I do - I think buying some UFA years would be worthwhile. 4x5 is good, I’d probably try to get a 5th or 6th year. I think Fabian could be a solid middle 6 guys into his early 30s.

 

[weastern bias]

They're both extremely slow goal scorers who dominate with their brain and strength. Toffoli was once considered a great defensive forward just like Pavelski although that part of his game has fallen off a bit just like it did for Pavelski in his mid-30s.

Tyler Toffoli was literally never a great defensive player, he also can't, hasn't and never played center, he is also much bigger and stronger than Pavelski

They are two completely different players, it's an asinine comparison

 

[Hodge]

Tyler Toffoli was literally never a great defensive player, he also can't, hasn't and never played center, he is also much bigger and stronger than Pavelski

They are two completely different players, it's an asinine comparison

They're literally the same size and Pavelski was predominantly a winger during his best seasons.

I know you're a casual who only follows the Sharks but Toffoli has had a reputation as a great two-way player going back to his time in LA.

 

[coooldude]

They're literally the same size and Pavelski was predominantly a winger during his best seasons.

I know you're a casual who only follows the Sharks but Toffoli has had a reputation as a great two-way player going back to his time in LA.