Speculation: 2023-24-25 Sharks Roster Discussion

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So you agree with me that he took around a 1.5M/year discount in his prime. Thanks for helping us afford to keep Torrey Mitchell, Jumbo. What a saint.
The best player on the team taking less to help keep the team fluid had the desired effect. Most others on the team followed suit.

For example, Vlasic. There was an 8 year period where he was considered one of the top 3 defensive defenseman in the world, worth 4.5 million. Him taking 3.1 million and 4.25 million consecutively was considered a steal. Dan Boyle was considered better than Brian Campbell, and he took 6.6 instead of shooting for the Campbell contract. Brent Burns did the same, taking 750k less than market value. Couture, Pavelski, Clowe, etc

When you have a village of 7-8 people taking 250k-1m discounts because they see the top guy taking 1.5m less and it adds up to 4-5 million in savings, yeah, it's a major help. Everyone at the time knew it, and praised Joe for it.

By the end of his prime , confidence in the GM and relationships were not the same and that attitude faltered, players stopped for everyone, and we got those super long albatross extensions. Vlasic being the worst.
 

Star Platinum

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I think this was out there, but the four teams in on Askarov other than us were Carolina, Colorado, Montreal, and Philadelphia. Besides the Flyers, those are all very smart and well-run organizations, meaning some smart people wanted Askarov.
john-cazale-godfather.gif
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Me neither to be honest.

I just remember wondering why Marleau was making Jumbo money when Jumbo was significantly better lol

But usually while going "yay everyone else took less than I expected "
Marleau still took less than what he could've gotten on the open market. It just wasn't the same level of sweetheart deal that Thornton gave.
 

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Marleau still took less than what he could've gotten on the open market. It just wasn't the same level of sweetheart deal that Thornton gave.
He signed that 2 year deal near 7 million then went on to have a 48 point season lol

That really made us appreciate the Jumbo contract considering anyone you put with Joe had a career year and he scored 96 points when his closest linemate had 55.

Marleau at the time was sitting in the 31st area of league scoring, and wasn't a selke guy and then had a flop year after signing. The other teams basically always put their top checkers on Jumbo, so Marleau didn't face the pressure. He later redeemed himself and became better defensively and got some top 10 selke votes, but at the time? It looked painful and not worth it when he had that 48 point season while Jumbo looked like the lord savior able to get top 5 in scoring with little help lol
 
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Pinkfloyd

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He signed that 2 year deal near 7 million then went on to have a 48 point season lol

That really made us appreciate the Jumbo contract considering anyone you put with Joe had a career year and he scored 96 points when his closest linemate had 55.

Marleau at the time was sitting in the 31st area of league scoring, and wasn't a selke guy and then had a flop year after signing. The other teams basically always put their top checkers on Jumbo, so Marleau didn't face the pressure. He later redeemed himself and became better defensively and got some top 10 selke votes, but at the time? It looked painful and not worth it when he had that 48 point season while Jumbo looked like the lord savior able to get top 5 in scoring with little help lol
That's referring to a 2 year, 6.3 mil contract he signed as a UFA. Are we really still pretending like he couldn't have gotten a longer contract somewhere else in his prime? They signed him to that after coming off a point-per-game season. If he's not signed that year, that 48 point season likely goes much differently. But complaining about how painful it is that the team only had to commit to two years after a bad season is still missing the reality that he still took less to sign here. Just because Jumbo was here and better doesn't change whether Marleau took less to stay here.
 

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That's referring to a 2 year, 6.3 mil contract he signed as a UFA. Are we really still pretending like he couldn't have gotten a longer contract somewhere else in his prime? They signed him to that after coming off a point-per-game season. If he's not signed that year, that 48 point season likely goes much differently. But complaining about how painful it is that the team only had to commit to two years after a bad season is still missing the reality that he still took less to sign here. Just because Jumbo was here and better doesn't change whether Marleau took less to stay here.
I just remember the majority agreeing Marleau was a 5.5 million dollar player at the time and being annoyed. Going by comparable in the league at the time. His numbers were inflated by playing on the PP with Joe and I didn't consider him with top line money.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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I just remember the majority agreeing Marleau was a 5.5 million dollar player at the time and being annoyed. Going by comparable in the league at the time. His numbers were inflated by playing on the PP with Joe and I didn't consider him with top line money.
It depends on what you consider at the time. Are we talking about after the 48 point season when the contract was already signed? Yeah he may have been at that money level after that year but that's not when the contract extension was signed. They signed him coming off back-to-back point-per-game season and still got him to accept two years when plenty of free agents worse than Marleau were getting 3-5 years. Even if you don't consider him top line money, plenty of teams would've likely disagreed with such a take.
 

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It depends on what you consider at the time. Are we talking about after the 48 point season when the contract was already signed? Yeah he may have been at that money level after that year but that's not when the contract extension was signed. They signed him coming off back-to-back point-per-game season and still got him to accept two years when plenty of free agents worse than Marleau were getting 3-5 years. Even if you don't consider him top line money, plenty of teams would've likely disagreed with such a take.
Nope. Wasn't talking about the 48 point season. Was talking his previous 2 years. Which look good by saying "back to back ppg seasons", but by metric of the time, his numbers seemed inflated by playing on the PP with a far superior player and he wasn't as good as most 1st line players making that much money. His comparables at the time were guys like Justin Williams or Alex Tanguay, who were making 3.5 to 5.3 million, or Andy McDonald/ Ales Hemsky types.

34 goals and 86 points and -12 only looks good when comparing him to other 2nd line players with top PP time not facing top line matches at the time. On most teams at the time, if given a choice between trading their top line C or winger for Marleau, maybe 5 teams would have considered it, many based on age not performance.

When Cheechoo is scoring 56 goals and 92 points and Thornton is scoring 125 points and is +31, it wasn't difficult to see who was the straw stirring the drink and who was drinking out of the straw.

Marleau like others benefited from not having top checkers on him and learned from Joe, who was the guy who propelled everyone to be better. He was considered a fringe 1st line C(not a 1st line C on most teams), great 2nd liner, not a 1 A/1B scenario like Sakic and Forsberg or Crosby/Malkin or McDavid/ Draisaitl. It was closer to a recent Kadri behind Mackinnon situation in terms of talent and scoring and everyone knew it.

A lot of people felt Marleau was worth 5.3 million ala Alex Tanguay. Very few thought he was worth 6.3 million at the time. Tanguay got shipped from Colorado after 05-06 because of contract demands and got that 3 year 5.25 million contract in Calgary after back to back over PPG seasons in the same general timeframe, which was considered overpay(he had 79 points in 69 games and 78 points in 71 games back to back, but nobody felt he was a play driver. He was a beneficiary of better teammates). C Marc Savard scored 97 points in Atlanta in 2005-06 and they let him walk to UFA where the Bruins promptly offered him a big UFA contract in 2006-07. 5 Million a year for 4 years(he was, like Marleau, thought to be a passenger on the train at the time)

And im not saying this to bother you. Its just what was largely agreed upon at the time. Marleau was overpaid for what he brought to the table. NOBODY thought that was a good contract for the sharks or the league. Everyone said "oh yay. That lockout sure worked......"

Alongside Glen Sather forgetting there was a salary cap and thinking "I'll New York buy Gomez and Drury"

Thornton's contract was the equivalent of a Matthews contract today, around 13 million. And he was a hart winner/candidate and worth it as he was a franchise player. If the team was contending and could sign prime jumbo to 13.25 million, you do it. But Marleau's contract was equivalent to 11.5 million in today's cap. Nobody would think that's a good idea
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Nope. Wasn't talking about the 48 point season. Was talking his previous 2 years. Which look good by saying "back to back ppg seasons", but by metric of the time, his numbers seemed inflated by playing on the PP with a far superior player and he wasn't as good as most 1st line players making that much money. His comparables at the time were guys like Justin Williams or Alex Tanguay, who were making 3.5 to 5.3 million, or Andy McDonald/ Ales Hemsky types.

34 goals and 86 points and -12 only looks good when comparing him to other 2nd line players with top PP time not facing top line matches at the time. On most teams at the time, if given a choice between trading their top line C or winger for Marleau, maybe 5 teams would have considered it, many based on age not performance.

When Cheechoo is scoring 56 goals and 92 points and Thornton is scoring 125 points and is +31, it wasn't difficult to see who was the straw stirring the drink and who was drinking out of the straw.

Marleau like others benefited from not having top checkers on him and learned from Joe, who was the guy who propelled everyone to be better. He was considered a fringe 1st line C(not a 1st line C on most teams), great 2nd liner, not a 1 A/1B scenario like Sakic and Forsberg or Crosby/Malkin or McDavid/ Draisaitl. It was closer to a recent Kadri behind Mackinnon situation in terms of talent and scoring and everyone knew it.

A lot of people felt Marleau was worth 5.3 million ala Alex Tanguay. Very few thought he was worth 6.3 million at the time. Tanguay got shipped from Colorado after 05-06 because of contract demands and got that 3 year 5.25 million contract in Calgary after back to back over PPG seasons in the same general timeframe, which was considered overpay(he had 79 points in 69 games and 78 points in 71 games back to back, but nobody felt he was a play driver. He was a beneficiary of better teammates). C Marc Savard scored 97 points in Atlanta in 2005-06 and they let him walk to UFA where the Bruins promptly offered him a big UFA contract in 2006-07. 5 Million a year for 4 years(he was, like Marleau, thought to be a passenger on the train at the time)

And im not saying this to bother you. Its just what was largely agreed upon at the time. Marleau was overpaid for what he brought to the table. NOBODY thought that was a good contract for the sharks or the league. Everyone said "oh yay. That lockout sure worked......"

Alongside Glen Sather forgetting there was a salary cap and thinking "I'll New York buy Gomez and Drury"

Thornton's contract was the equivalent of a Matthews contract today, around 13 million. And he was a hart winner/candidate and worth it as he was a franchise player. If the team was contending and could sign prime jumbo to 13.25 million, you do it. But Marleau's contract was equivalent to 11.5 million in today's cap. Nobody would think that's a good idea
Even if everything here is something I'd agree with, it doesn't explain in any sort of way how guys like Tanguay, McDonald, Williams, and Hemsky were getting 3-6 year contracts as supposed comparables yet Marleau could only get two. You're fooling yourself if you think any of those four were actually any different than how you portrayed Marleau here. Yet Marleau got two years and the rest all got more years. If Marleau just got the average term between those four, he'd have gotten four years and even at 5.5 mil that were the argued market rate, he'd have gotten 10 more million on the open market when typically centers are overpaid in free agency. Matthews' contract today is quite a bigger percentage of cap than Thornton's was then.
 
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Even if everything here is something I'd agree with, it doesn't explain in any sort of way how guys like Tanguay, McDonald, Williams, and Hemsky were getting 3-6 year contracts as supposed comparables yet Marleau could only get two. You're fooling yourself if you think any of those four were actually any different than how you portrayed Marleau here. Yet Marleau got two years and the rest all got more years. If Marleau just got the average term between those four, he'd have gotten four years and even at 5.5 mil that were the argued market rate, he'd have gotten 10 more million on the open market when typically centers are overpaid in free agency. Matthews' contract today is quite a bigger percentage of cap than Thornton's was then.
Marc savard went UFA after 2 great seasons and got 4 years at 5 million just a year prior and he was waaaay better than Marleau lol.

In the end. Marleau didn't take a hometown discount(even if you want to believe it) and everyone at the time called the contract crazy and said he wasn't worth it. He took more money than he was worth. The only guy throwing that kind of money at lesser UFA centers like Gomez and Drury was Sather(and dmen like redden). And that was Sather's notorious MO later in life even before the cap. In fact Sather was one of the guys responsible for the salary cap and the next lockout lol. He demoted Redden to the AHL back when you could bury salary more from the caphit. Fortunately, the next lockout all but eliminated the benefits of burying a huge contract in the minors so he had to buy him out LOL.

The Bobby Holik 9 million a year for 5 years was peak comedy

Just 2 years prior to Marleau's extension , prime Peter Forsberg signed as a UFA with the Flyers for 2 years 11.5 million.

We were fortunate the cap kept going up , but no, Marleau wouldn't get Bigger money unless Sather had room. He wasn't worth it and pretty much nobody but Sather would have paid it.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Marc savard went UFA after 2 great seasons and got 4 years at 5 million just a year prior and he was waaaay better than Marleau lol.

In the end. Marleau didn't take a hometown discount(even if you want to believe it) and everyone at the time called the contract crazy and said he wasn't worth it. He took more money than he was worth. The only guy throwing that kind of money at lesser UFA centers like Gomez and Drury was Sather(and dmen like redden). And that was Sather's notorious MO later in life even before the cap. In fact Sather was one of the guys responsible for the salary cap and the next lockout lol. He demoted Redden to the AHL back when you could bury salary more from the caphit. Fortunately, the next lockout all but eliminated the benefits of burying a huge contract in the minors so he had to buy him out LOL.

The Bobby Holik 9 million a year for 5 years was peak comedy

Just 2 years prior to Marleau's extension , prime Peter Forsberg signed as a UFA with the Flyers for 2 years 11.5 million.

We were fortunate the cap kept going up , but no, Marleau wouldn't get Bigger money unless Sather had room. He wasn't worth it and pretty much nobody but Sather would have paid it.
Marc Savard had an extensive injury history including one of those years you talked about being a great season for him in between Heatley and Kovalchuk. Still got four years yet I'm supposed to believe Marleau couldn't have gotten four years on the open market.

The market then should be showing you that you're wrong yet somehow everyone called a two year contract crazy? I'm not buying that in the slightest and those that share that opinion are pretty clearly overreacting.

Forsberg's contract came after a major injury and a lockout.

Marleau didn't even need bigger money to have taken less. Any par for the course four year, 5.5 mil offer that wouldn't have just been there from New York, would've been a lot more than what he signed for. But the fact remains that the Rangers then did have that money and would've absolutely paid Marleau before signing Redden if that option were there. I don't see a legitimate logical reason to believe otherwise.
 

Pinkfloyd

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Can't wait to start seeing some regular season games and see him get used to playing in the NHL. I expect him to be the 1C after the trade deadline at the latest. His play probably should warrant that before then considering Granlund is currently our 1C. While Granlund played admirably last season, it's difficult to expect him to replicate that and even if he does, Celebrini has the talent to surpass him anyway.
 

mogambomoroo

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Can't wait to start seeing some regular season games and see him get used to playing in the NHL. I expect him to be the 1C after the trade deadline at the latest. His play probably should warrant that before then considering Granlund is currently our 1C. While Granlund played admirably last season, it's difficult to expect him to replicate that and even if he does, Celebrini has the talent to surpass him anyway.
I would say that if Granlund wants to stay as a depth veteran C/LW on similar to Wennberg like deal (5mil x 2), I'm all for it.
(If Granlund can keep up with his production this year)

Celebrini will be 1C sooner rather than later, but it's important to have a veteran depth to keep it balanced.
 

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