Speculation: 2023-2024 General Lightning Discussion - Part 5

[Antiramie]

Ya, Stamkos doesn’t have a track record of showing loyalty and taking significant hometown discounts.

The point of leaking a smaller number would be… what again? Matter of fact, one would think it would hurt stamkos chances at a bigger number in free agency if his career team is offering him not market value.

$8.5 x 8 was a significant hometown discount? You think he should have been paid $11.5 AAV back then?

 

[Lightning1995]

I had to take time to digest this. Had to take some time away, this move on Stamkos really made me question things. I came to the conclusion for the first time, I actually full heartedly want the GM fired. The lack of class showed during this debacle has left me jarred. It's not the fact that we moved on from Stamkos, but in the way we did it. This isn't a franchise to be proud of. This isn't a classy organization that Vinik set out to create.

In life when you meet someone shady, or someone that is two faced. Your best to cut your losses and kick them out of your life. You will be better off for it. It's time to cut JBB loose.

Never was a fan of him, but I never was disgusted with him. He lost a lot of respect as a GM from me with the way he treated a guy as important to our franchise as Stamkos was. He needs to be fired Yesterday. Get him the F out.

I presume Vinik was consulted before Stammer was allowed to walk and likely with the communication leading up to today. Perhaps not, but given who Stammer is, I’d imagine so…..and that’s what bothers me the most

 

[bov]

Trending towards being the softest team in the league now. Losing Maroon, Bogosian, Colton, Perry, Jeannot, Watson and even Sergachev over the past couple years with no real formidable replacements is a bad sign.

You can't contend with the team makeup we have now, particularly at forward. Too small and eventually they won't hold up against big, mean, relentless opposition when the games get tougher to win. Doesn't matter how skilled you are, the way this team is currently constructed can only go so far.

At least add a veteran tough guy or two who you don't have to feel bad about having as an extra. Trade for Olivier, maybe sign a depth D like Tinordi so you have some guys for when the going gets tough.

 

[Antiramie]

Remember when Gretzky got traded?

 

[Coopers Gum]

$8.5 x 8 was a significant hometown discount? You think he should have been paid $11.5 AAV back then?

Stamkos easily could have gotten ~10 that year, had he hit the market. Kopitar did.

 

[T REX]

Remember when Gretzky got traded?

The oilers owner was overextended and about to go into bankruptcy.

Kings sent $15 mill in cash to save the EDM franchise. Lots of shady stuff by EDM owner.

Gretz didn't want to leave.

 

[Antiramie]

Trending towards being the softest team in the league now. Losing Maroon, Bogosian, Colton, Perry, Jeannot, Watson and even Sergachev over the past couple years with no real formidable replacements is a bad sign.

You can't contend with the team makeup we have now, particularly at forward. Too small and eventually they won't hold up against big, mean, relentless opposition when the games get tougher to win. Doesn't matter how skilled you are, the way this team is currently constructed can only go so far.

At least add a veteran tough guy or two who you don't have to feel bad about having as an extra. Trade for Olivier, maybe sign a depth D like Tinordi so you have some guys for when the going gets tough.

Maroon and Perry are soft as baby shit.

Watson and Jeannot can't play hockey.

Serg is a defensive liability and doesn't have the mean streak he did during our Cup run.

Bogo is a borderline 3rd pairing. Colton is whatever.

We were 7th in the league in hits this season without most of those guys. We got smoked in the first round. It's not like we went multiple rounds and got worn down. We had a roster who sucked defensively and had no depth.

You still need skill to get into the playoffs. And we're tough enough with Cernak, Eyssimont, Paul, McD, Hagel, Cirelli. Loading up on guys who are "tough" in spite of skill would be a detriment.

 

[Antiramie]

The oilers owner was overextended and about to go into bankruptcy.

Kings sent $15 mill in cash to save the EDM franchise. Lots of shady stuff by EDM owner.

Gretz didn't want to leave.

My point was that even the best don't end up in perfect situations and ride off into the sunset. If everyone who "didn't want to leave" got their way there'd be no point in having GMs.

They didn't agree on his worth with the team. JBB is GM. Stammer isn't. JBB can't pay him the difference in unicorns and sparkles.

 

[T REX]

My point was that even the best don't end up in perfect situations and ride off into the sunset. If everyone who "didn't want to leave" got their way there'd be no point in having GMs.

They didn't agree on his worth with the team. JBB is GM. Stammer isn't. JBB can't pay him the difference in unicorns and sparkles.

Going deeper...EDM's coach tried to stop the trade. I've seen a bunch of Bolts fans invoke the Gretky was traded card a bunch. There's nothing comparable between the two at all. Zero.

 

[Antiramie]

Going deeper...EDM's coach tried to stop the trade. I've seen a bunch of Bolts fans invoke the Gretky was traded card a bunch. There's nothing comparable between the two at all. Zero.

Yea, there is. Stammer couldn't control his destiny by sheer will. Neither could Gretz. However badass or loved you are doesn't necessarily prevent extenuating circumstances. It's an imperfect, subjective, fluid business. He had 16 amazing years and ran into an impasse with a GM who has won 2 Cups and almost a 3rd. It was an awesome run, but nothing lasts forever.

 

[Crunchrulz]

Anyone wanna bet on the sellout streak ending next year?

Hopefully, those fair-weather fans jumping off the bandwagon do not break too many ankles when they hit the ground.
We may cheer when they win and complain when the lose but a true fan stands with his/her team regardless.

 

[Sky04]

Yzerman so good at building a team his franchise player turns 28 next year without having seen a single playoff game in his tenure. Yzerman is like 2 years away from rebuilding his rebuild.

Let's not forget he lucked into having Stamkos and Hedman already when he came, he spent most of his tenure patching holes with bandaid solutions like Carle too. Guess what? He's doing the exact same thing in Detroit right now with questionable signings that don't move the needle at all.

He's made a whack ton of mistakes these past 3 years and his team hasn't even seen a playoff game yet but sure best GM ever or something.

 

[JTBF81]

I'm going to bed. Maybe too much turkey in that Pub Wrap I ate but I eeked this one out prior to logging off.

Fire away!

View attachment 891152

I definitely agree with Sprong as an add, but have doubts they could get him that cheap. What did you trade for Bjugstad and get in a trade for Perbix (provided that's what you did with him here)? Looks good though!

 

[Zwui21]

Might need Hagel on PP1

I'd like to see that

 

[Crunchrulz]

Many are assuming that JBB is totally at fault for Stamkos leaving.
Perhaps we might want to get BOTH sides of what happened before we pass judgment one way or the other.

 

[DMB06]

Link to Stammer lying please. Thanks. These posts are embarrassing.

Stammer didn't do anything, but his agent surely did. There's no chance he was signing for 4-5 when he clearly asked Nashville for at least 8. You're going to tell me that makes any sense? He has taken prior discounts, sure, but literally as much as half? Tell me that's more logical to believe.

 

[DMB06]

Ya, Stamkos doesn’t have a track record of showing loyalty and taking significant hometown discounts.

The point of leaking a smaller number would be… what again? Matter of fact, one would think it would hurt stamkos chances at a bigger number in free agency if his career team is offering him not market value.

Stammer is a player, he's not an agent. His agent is much more likely to be the one who leaked that obviously false info. And the point would be to make it seem like he's even more of a team player than he's already known for. Or it could've been an agent throwing a tantrum (like many on here are), because he didn't get his way. Leak a fake number, all the blame falls on JBB....this isn't a difficult scenario to understand.

And as I just said in my other post, a discount is one thing, literally half an amount is another. Nashville gave him 8 because that's clearly the MINIMUM he asked for. Do you think he asked for 6 and Nashville said, nah, we'll give you an additional 2. No, teams give only what they're required to give. If they gave him 8, it's the absolute minimum that he asked for, and it's not unlikely that he asked for even more. But I'm to believe he was content to stay here for 4-5? Come on, not one single person here actually believes that nonsense.

JBB said in his press conference today that our offer, and Stammers demand, weren't close enough to make anything work. If the reported offer of 3m is accurate, do you honestly think the 4-5 figure fits in with JBB saying the two sides weren't close? From no angle does that rumor make any logical sense. It's infinitely times more likely that he asked for at least 6.5 to 7. Still represents a discount, and matches up with not being close enough to counter by JBB.

I get it, he's a popular player here. But once emotions subside people will see this all for what it really is and not what his agent wanted you to think instead.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Stammer didn't do anything, but his agent surely did. There's no chance he was signing for 4-5 when he clearly asked Nashville for at least 8. You're going to tell me that makes any sense? He has taken prior discounts, sure, but literally as much as half? Tell me that's more logical to believe.

He (his agent) was probably looking for 8 years (retirement in Tampa assured and security for the Stamkos family) and something north of 5M (a compromise from Stamkos’ point of view). With the Serg/McD swap and the (still open) extension of Moser this just wasn’t possible since JBB was set to sign Guentzel. There was not enough cap space. It pretty much boils down to this.

Now could JBB have been more open about the situation to Stamkos? Would Stamkos, the professional, be sad but ultimately understanding? I think the answer is yes to both questions. JBB just didn’t see the necessity of being transparent with Stamkos and decided to treat the situation as strictly business which is of course legit but leaves a sour taste especially after hearing Stamkos’ side of things yesterday.

 

[flying squirrel]

Woof what a terrible terrible post…

Julien Brisebois was one of the brightest young executive in hockey. He had a big impact in working on the reform of the constitution of the QJMHL before he was 24 yrs old.

He then spent 9 years working for Montreal, became their youngest VP of Hockey Operation and managed the Canadiens’s AHL affiliate to the Calder Cup.

One of the first move that Steve Yzerman did in 2010 when he became the Tampa Bay Lightning GM was to poach Julien Brisebois from Montreal.

That was a brilliant move by Yzerman, as Brisebois was already a master with anything related to collective bargaining agreements and contracts negotiations, plus he had the Quebec territory on lock down.

You think Yzerman built this house brick by brick alone, and Brisebois came in after to put on a few windows !?

They built this thing together from day one. Julien Brisebois was involved in all aspects of player personnel decisions, analytics, player development, contract preparation and negotiation.

Brisebois’ reputation among his peers and the rest of the hockey world is excellent.

Yzerman’s legacy as a GM ?

One things I will give him is that smart executives surround themselves with smarter people than them, and/or with complementary skills. And he did just that with Brisebois in Tampa Bay. That was the foundation upon was everything else was built.

Now let’s see if he can replicate his success without leaning on JBB.

Don't think I said BriseBois wasn't decent GM or knew Hockey, did I? Already knew BriseBois history, but thanks for packaging it all up in one place. Seeing info all wrapped up like that actually gives more credence to BriseBois maybe being ate-up: With the want out of Yzerman's shadow syndrome. Years in the background like that could've planted seeds of jealousy, pride, and the want to prove what "His" team could do if given the chance. Any investigator worth-a-darn would bark up that tree, to see possibilities.

This Stamkos ordeal seems personal, was done nasty, and now us fans can only assume what took or takes place now. Because it's obvious this GM is a liar now, that can't be taken for his word anymore. Can he? So it's up to us, media, etc. to piece why GM did Stamkos so nasty? BriseBois own actions opened up this door, no one else's did. Flat-cap decisions caused a bunch of tough choices. But treating a player, who's done nothing but great things for franchise 16 yrs running with decency, should been easy choice. A very very easy choice!!! But it wasn't for BriseBois was it?

No one is bigger than franchise, that includes Mr. BriseBois himself. What GM just did to Stamkos was wrong., period! This wasn't normal cap situation this time around. It was Stamkos, face of franchise for 16 years!!! Players wanted him back! Majority of fans wanted him back! Stamkos wanted to comeback. GM is not the end all, everyone should have mattered with this decision and to do Stamkos so nasty on top if it. Really? That's a bridge to far in our house. Believe GM underestimated blow back he'd get from fans, lockeroom, players around league, media, etc. I've defended BriseBois throughout many tough moves beforehand but after treatment of Stamkos, way he straight-up lied to fans over & over, and way he acting like he did everything he could. He can go kick rocks and ride off into the sunset. What GM just did will hurt Lightning organization way worse than any bad contract might of done. Hockey sense is great but how one treats people matters too. Way BriseBois is doing people, players, fans, etc.. Will catch-up to him and Lightning: That's if BriseBois survives what may come at start of next year....

 

[Maelmoor]

Yeah, it's not black and white, Don Meehan is hardly an angel and he would for sure push for as much money and term as possible (it's his job after all).

After what I read and heard, I do agree it could've been dealt with better, but I don't see it would've changed the outcome of Stamkos leaving. I don't see him take less than 6, maybe even 7 (depending on the term), with Meehan pushing hard for it.

 

[RMF5630]

The low cost top 6 acquistion gamble to make now is trade a 4th and meh prospect like Roman Schmidt to the Kings for Arthur Kaliyev. The guy we should have drafted in 2019 instead of Nolan Foote.

Another one would be Bobby Brink (another guy we could have drafted in 2019) especially if Tortorella is over him. Acquistion cost would be slightly more expensive but I don't think the Flyers value him as much as they once did.

I would like a Henrique type for third line.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

I would like a Henrique type for third line.

Henrique is going back to the Oilers

 

[RMF5630]

Don't think I said BriseBois wasn't decent GM or knew Hockey, did I? Already knew BriseBois history, but thanks for packaging it all up in one place. Seeing info all wrapped up like that actually gives more credence to BriseBois maybe being ate-up: With the want out of Yzerman's shadow syndrome. Years in the background like that could've planted seeds of jealousy, pride, and the want to prove what "His" team could do if given the chance. Any investigator worth-a-darn would bark up that tree, to see possiblities.

This Stamkos ordeal seems personal, was done nasty, and now us fans can only assume what took or takes place now. Because it's obvious this GM is a liar now, that can't be taken for his word anymore. Can he? So it's up to us to piece why GM did Stamkos so nasty? BriseBois own actions opened this door, no one else's did. Flat-cap decisions caused a bunch of tough choices. But treating a player, who's done nothing but great things for franchise 16 yrs running, with decency should been easy choice. A very very easy choice!!! But it wasn't for BriseBois was it?

No one is bigger than franchise, that includes Mr. BriseBois himself. What GM just did to Stamkos was wrong., period! This wasn't normal cap situation this time around. It was Stamkos, face of franchise for 16 years!!! Players wanted him back! Majority of fans wanted him back! Stamkos wanted to comeback. GM is not the end all, everyone should have matter with this decesion and to do Stamkos so nasty on top if it. Really? That's a bidge to far in our house. Believe GM underesimated blowback he'd get from fans, lockeroom, players around league, media, etc. I've defended BriseBois throughout many tough moves beforehand but after treatedment of Stamkos, way he straight-up lied to fans over & over, and way he acting like he did everythign he could. He can go kick rocks and ride off into the sunset. What GM just did will hurt Lightning organization way worse than any bad contract might of done. Hockey sense is great but how one treats people matters too. Way BriseBois is doing people, players, fans, etc.. WIll catch-up to him and Lightning: That's if BriseBois surives what may come at start of next year....

What? JBB is not going anywhere and is secure in his job. He has two cups and finals run in the last 6 years. You guys are getting a little attached to 1 player. The Lightning didn't just pick the offer numbers out of the air, they did done analysis and came to the conclusion that was what he was worth, the term was in defence to who he is.

Stamkos became older Ovechekin, hanging out cherry picking shots on the PP. He was the 3rd alt to Kuech and Point. Let's see how he does in Nashville. You say that the Lightning did him wrong yet he signed with Nashville in about 30 minutes into FA... Two way street.

Henrique is going back to the Oilers

Damn, you go to sleep for 6 hours and your behind!

 

[JTBF81]

I would like a Henrique type for third line.

Roslovic is still available, as are Sprong and Tarasenko. I think any of those 3 would be good adds to the middle 6 if JBB can make it work.

 

[Hockeyville USA]

Roslovic is still available, as are Sprong and Tarasenko. I think any of those 3 would be good adds to the middle 6 if JBB can make it work.

Especially since we can insulate all 3 with defensive minded forwards