2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[BadgersandBlues]

I really hope Hayes has played his last game in a Blues sweater...

I get what DA was trying to do, we are thin on centers and by adding a vet you don't have to rush a young guy that isn't ready yet. But he targeted the wrong vet, its not like its just that his top 9 days are behind him and you can rely on him to center the 4th line. He has no business being in the NHL at this point, only thing he does is win faceoffs... surely we could've found a vet that is good on the dot but also capable of skating, checking, or hitting. Only thing I can think is that Hayes was part of a bigger Sanheim package and when Krug nixed that DA went ahead and got Hayes anyway.

Hayes is a prime candidate to be bought out, get it done DA.

The Hayes hate is getting a little overboard lol. He's not an NHL player? Come on now. At 5v5, he's our 4th best forward in xGF%, he's got a positive GF/GA ratio of +1, and he's scored more 5v5 goals then Schenn or Buch.

Edit: Ah I see Brian already beat me too it.

 

[LGB]

I was pleasantly surprised by Hayes. He’s hard to get off the puck and has some skill. His most common line mates this year were Toropchenko and Kapanen.

 

[BlueDream]

The Hayes hate is getting a little overboard lol. He's not an NHL player? Come on now. At 5v5, he's our 4th best forward in xGF%, he's got a positive GF/GA ratio of +1, and he's scored more 5v5 goals then Schenn or Buch.

Edit: Ah I see Brian already beat me too it.

5v5 stats are overblown, it reminds me of when Philly fans used that to try to portray Schenn as a powerplay specialist as if PP production doesn’t matter.

But anyways, Hayes does not have more even strength goals than either of them. Buch and Schenn have more. We don’t need to cherry pick stats to try to create a narrative here. (I know EVG and 5v5 are different, that’s not my point).

 

[BadgersandBlues]

5v5 stats are overblown, it reminds me of when Philly fans used that to try to portray Schenn as a powerplay specialist as if PP production doesn’t matter.

But anyways, Hayes does not have more even strength goals than either of them. Buch and Schenn have more. We don’t need to cherry pick stats to try to create a narrative here. (I know EVG and 5v5 are different, that’s not my point).

The claim was that Hayes is no longer an NHL player. That's simply a garbage take. Don't move the goalposts.

 

[PocketNines]

Out of a possible 6 points against San Jose, we've collected 1 point. That's the difference between playoffs and no playoffs.

It seems like so little, but there is an entire world of character in between the Blues' actual, deserved 1 point, and the achievement of 6 points. They would have to be totally different people

 

[STLegend]

I very much disagree that he doesn't belong in the NHL.

He had a 40% O-zone start rate and still put up 13 even strength goals and 11 even strength assists while putting up decent possession metrics relevant to his teammates, being one of our few non-minus players, and our best faceoff man. He had more takeaways than giveaways. The Athletic pegged his current market value at $2.6M. Hockey Reference has him at a 2.4 points share.

What is the argument that he is a below replacement-level bottom 6 player?

He's scored in just 11 of 77 games played, while having 29 points, he's only collected points in 21 of 77 games while averaging 14.5 min/night. 16 of his 29 points have come against non-playoff teams. Additional 3G & 1A against hometown team/grudge match (philly).

He's as slow as molasses in January, therefor he can't effectively check, he's a big guy but doesn't hit, both of which are qualities you want in a bottom 6 player. He has developed no on-ice chemistry with linemates other than maybe Toropchenko, which only consists of Hayes throwing the puck around the boards for Toro to go get. Calling him a non-minus player, while technically true, is kinda funny considering he's at +/- 0. I think its more of an indication of his linemates than his own play, Toropchenko/Kapanen/Walker/Saad are all guys who are fast and are tenacious on the forecheck and backcheck. Meanwhile Hayes is more reminiscent of a traffic cone with all his floating in open space.

The market value you listed would mean he is overpaid by 1 million dollars. So a likeable lockeroom guy, who wins faceoffs and scores at a .37 ppg pace against primarily non-playoff teams for 3.5 million... The Blues can do a whole lot better than that.

 

[bleedblue1223]

It seems like so little, but there is an entire world of character in between the Blues' actual, deserved 1 point, and the achievement of 6 points. They would have to be totally different people

Yep. While our metrics of the team in front of Binnington and Hofer are pretty terrible and deserving of a top 5-10 pick, it's also a team that if they handled their business againt a couple really bad teams, they'd be in the playoffs. I can add in the possible 4 points against Columbus, and we got 0 or the 5 games against teams on our level in Nashville and Detroit, and we collected 0 points in those games.

That's 5 games against basement teams, and we got 1 point. And 5 games, where we should've collected something, even a point % of 50% would've been reasonable, and we drop both games.

It's highlighting what's missing mentally on the team.

 

[LetsGoBooze]

I don’t really understand the fixation with trying to find a 2C this off season. We aren’t a Cup contender with one and our biggest holes are still on D. The 2 C market is thin and with the cap rising, are we going to get a bloated contract for a just ok player? And if that player is affordable, why wouldn’t they go to a team that can actually compete?

I would much rather have as much cap flexibility as possible until we acquire guys to plug the holes on D and remove the guys who are on bad or soon to be bad contracts.

I am personally in no rush to make the playoffs. I still feel we are in the asset accumulation phase so let’s not try to make a playoff roster due to impatience.

You were great at putting my thoughts into words. The best path forward is trading a few more losing seasons for high draft picks and letting some bad vet contracts expire over this time. We botched it this season, due to elite goaltending, but picking top-10 from 2023-2025 was the roadmap to a quicker re-tool. With a couple more high-end prospects in the pipeline, and capspace coming online over the next few seasons, we would then shift focus from asset accumulation to competitive roster construction starting after the 2024-2025 season. Signing a few vets now and rushing back into the playoffs over the next couple seasons just to be the 6th or 7th seed and lose 1st round just seems very short sighted to me. We desperately need a few more top-end prospects (Defense anyone?) to build our core around. Patience is key, but if we truly want another extended cup window, this is a way to accomplish that without burning the roster in its entirety the ground.

 

[STLegend]

I was pleasantly surprised by Hayes. He’s hard to get off the puck and has some skill. His most common line mates this year were Toropchenko and Kapanen.

Which is what Maroon did for the Blues (+ fighting and hitting) while only making 1.75

 

[Xerloris]

I really hope Hayes has played his last game in a Blues sweater...

I get what DA was trying to do, we are thin on centers and by adding a vet you don't have to rush a young guy that isn't ready yet. But he targeted the wrong vet, its not like its just that his top 9 days are behind him and you can rely on him to center the 4th line. He has no business being in the NHL at this point, only thing he does is win faceoffs... surely we could've found a vet that is good on the dot but also capable of skating, checking, or hitting. Only thing I can think is that Hayes was part of a bigger Sanheim package and when Krug nixed that DA went ahead and got Hayes anyway.

Hayes is a prime candidate to be bought out, get it done DA.

For what we are paying Hayes is is absolutely worth keeping. How ever, I do really hate him.

 

[bleedblue1223]

While Hayes wasn't amazing, he also had shit linemates for a large portion of the season. I wish Army targeted a short-term stop gap option, but he's fine for what we need. Maybe he'll be more productive as the top 9 gets filled with more talented players. It's not like a player like Bolduc has to explode on the scene next year to be more productive than Kapanen. How many games did Vrana and Blais have in the top 9 and be completely useless?

 

[LGB]

Which is what Maroon did for the Blues (+ fighting and hitting) while only making 1.75

And Maroon played a valuable role on a championship team. Not exactly an indictment. Plus I think Hayes is better in most respects while being a center.

 

[Xerloris]

Here's all the GA of Kyrou on the PP this year. Two of which I 100% put on Kyrou. But the other four I really have a hard time.


Oct 28th Van vs STL: JT Miller SHG In the Neutral Zone Krug hands the puck directly to Pettersson who chips the puck around Krug to JT Miller who Buries it.

St. Louis Blues - Vancouver Canucks - Oct 27, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Vancouver Canucks, Oct 27, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Nov 19th LAK vs STL: Schenn passes puck to Krug at the Point, Kempe pokes the pass around Krug and is off on a breakaway.

Los Angeles Kings - St. Louis Blues - Nov 18, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Los Angeles Kings vs. St. Louis Blues, Nov 18, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Dec 13th DET vs STL: Kyrou is along the boards fighting with Veleno, puck get's stolen from Kyrou and Veleno Clears the put out of the Zone past Krug, Hayes coasts back and let's Rasmussen easily get to the puck for an Empty net goal. (I Blame Kyrou on this one on getting his pocket picked, but, Krug did basically nothing to hold it in and Hayes gave up on the play as well)

Detroit Red Wings - St. Louis Blues - Dec 12, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Detroit Red Wings vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 12, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Dec 23th Chi vs STL: Kyrou get's walked by Foligno. 100% Kyrou's fault

Chicago Blackhawks - St. Louis Blues - Dec 23, 2023 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Chicago Blackhawks vs. St. Louis Blues, Dec 23, 2023 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

Feb 19th TOR vs STL: Buch tries to be pretty, passes it to Krug who immediately has the puck knocked away from him and past him and Buch springing Nylander and Holmberg on a 2 on 0 breakaway.

St. Louis Blues - Toronto Maple Leafs - Feb 19, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - St. Louis Blues vs. Toronto Maple Leafs, Feb 19, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

April 4th NAS vs STL: Faulk gently passes the puck up ice from the D Zone into the Neutral Zone right past Buch directly onto the stick of Jankowski

Nashville Predators - St. Louis Blues - Apr 4, 2024 | NHL.com

NHL Gamecenter - Nashville Predators vs. St. Louis Blues, Apr 4, 2024 - summary, stats, boxscore, play by play, recap and more.

www.nhl.com

(Idk how to put the videos from NHL.com to HFboards sorry)

The one against Detroit I wouldn't call Kyrous fault, it looked like he was being hooked like a mother f***er but you know, that kind of play is fine as long as you play for an original 6.

The play against the Hawks I wouldn't blame on him either. You can't put a forward in a defensive role and expect any other than failure, you can hope for better but you should always expect failure.

 

[STLegend]

The claim was that Hayes is no longer an NHL player. That's simply a garbage take. Don't move the goalposts.

I wouldn't consider it moving goal posts to call you out on blatantly posting false stats....

5v5 goals:
Buchnevich-17
Schenn-14
Hayes-13

 

[Brian39]

He's scored in just 11 of 77 games played, while having 29 points, he's only collected points in 21 of 77 games while averaging 14.5 min/night. 16 of his 29 points have come against non-playoff teams. Additional 3G & 1A against hometown team/grudge match (philly).

He's as slow as molasses in January, therefor he can't effectively check, he's a big guy but doesn't hit, both of which are qualities you want in a bottom 6 player. He has developed no on-ice chemistry with linemates other than maybe Toropchenko, which only consists of Hayes throwing the puck around the boards for Toro to go get. Calling him a non-minus player, while technically true, is kinda funny considering he's at +/- 0. I think its more of an indication of his linemates than his own play, Toropchenko/Kapanen/Walker/Saad are all guys who are fast and are tenacious on the forecheck and backcheck. Meanwhile Hayes is more reminiscent of a traffic cone with all his floating in open space.

The market value you listed would mean he is overpaid by 1 million dollars. So a likeable lockeroom guy, who wins faceoffs and scores at a .37 ppg pace against primarily non-playoff teams for 3.5 million... The Blues can do a whole lot better than that.

236 NHL forwards have more than 11 goals this year. That's 7.375 per team. 12 forwards dress for a team on any given night. Even assuming that every other player with 12+ goals scored them all on separate nights, that is still the large majority of bottom 6 players who fail to score on 12+ separate nights in an NHL season.

You didn't say he was overpaid. You said that he had no business being in the NHL. Those are different things.

I very much disagree that you can easily find a better center for $3.57M against the cap. UFA prices on centers usually suck real hard and teams are rarely giving away 40 point centers (or high level defensive centers) making $3.5M. Getting such a guy at that price would very likely cost an asset of value (like a 2nd round pick).

You also advocated for a buyout, which would be a huge mistake IMO. A buyout would leave us with a $2.3M cap hit, which is about $1.3M less than the cap hit we actually take on him. That would leave us with $1.3M to replace/upgrade him, which is very, very unlikely to happen. It also puts us on the hook for $666k of dead cap for 2 additional seasons beyond his contract.

Hayes is a perfectly fine bottom 6 center making a little bit more than he is worth against the cap. he is way down the list of problems with this team and is a perfectly adequate stopgap that might eventually get forced further down the lineup before his contract expires.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

I wouldn't consider it moving goal posts to call you out on blatantly posting false stats....

5v5 goals:
Buchnevich-17
Schenn-14
Hayes-13

I think you might be looking at ES goals, not 5v5 goals. This is a screenshot of the 5v5 goals for the Blues:

 

[BadgersandBlues]

One last note about Hayes - he's been extremely effective at drawing penalties this season, while not taking any himself. He's taken the 2nd least penalties/60 (Only Leddy takes less) and he's drawn the 3rd most (Tucker and Sunny are ahead of him). There's fairly positive value there as well.

I'm not in love with Hayes, he's an extremely frustrating player. I cannot believe ANY GM gave that man a 7M+ AAV max contract. But he doesn't cost us 7M+, he makes 3.1-whatever against the cap and has played an adequate, if not especially exciting, 3C this season. To call him not an NHL player is silly. A slightly overpaid 3C? Sure.

 

[BlueDream]

Hayes is an NHL player but I do wonder what our plans are at center moving forward and if the Blues aren’t happy with him.

Maybe I’m looking into this too much but he’s healthy scratched again tonight. It’s kinda weird that we’re playing Kapanen and Blais, two upcoming UFAs who should not be back, instead of him as the season winds down and our playoff chances are technically still alive.

It might mean nothing. And maybe he’s back next season as our 3C, which I’d be fine with. But I also won’t care if he’s dealt.

 

[TheDizee]

if vegas loses tonight and the blues win, i will use my GDT powers to make sure the blues win their final 2 games.

 

[joe galiba]

what about all the breakaways Hayes gets?
it is his specialty

 

[STL fan in MN]

if vegas loses tonight and the blues win, i will use my GDT powers to make sure the blues win their final 2 games.

If you have those sorts of powers why haven’t you used them already? Could’ve used them tonight.

 

[TheDizee]

If you have those sorts of powers why haven’t you used them already? Could’ve used them tonight.

team is too unlikeable for me to waste them on a bunch of underperforming drama queens. i havent made a single gdt this year bc of how unlikeable they were last year (where I was 6-0)

if they get enough of a roster shakeup this offseason, i may make more GDT.

 

[PocketNines]

It's almost time for the Blues to play Dallas. About 40 games ago my partner asked, "Who are they playing? Dallas? They always play Dallas." and I told her no but they did have another game left with Dallas ... and for 40 games she has asked me, "are they playing Dallas?" about a dozen games ago she said, "it's the last game of the season isn't it?" and my face was completely inscrutable so for all she knows tomorrow's penultimate game at 10 am is against Dallas.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Not sure what my exact expectations will be for Bolduc next season, but he's certainly raised them, and makes Snuggs decision to stay in school easier for me to swallow. Hopefully he has a good full rookie season, so that when our other young forwards come up, he can start to be someone that we can lean on a bit.

 

[joe galiba]

already Robert Thomas is 23rd in Blues career points and 16th in career assists, 44th in career games played
Kyrou is already 26th in goals scored and 33rd in points