2023-2024 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

[Brian39]

An interesting part of the equation to his PTO is that he signed with the Chicago Wolves in the AHL this summer before signing his PTO with us. So he's the first example I've seen of any sort of player movement with the Wolves going independent.

Wolves Add 5 Players For 2023-24 Season - Chicago Wolves

The Wolves’ roster for the 2023-24 season continues to take shape. On Tuesday, general manager Wendell Young announced that five…

www.chicagowolves.com

Would us signing him to a contract and then sending him through waivers to AHL void his contract with the Wolves and allow him to go to Springfield? Or does that Wolves contract retain his rights in a situation like that?

I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that question with certainty because I don't have a copy of the AHL CBA. Unlike the NHL CBA, neither the AHL or the PHPA posts an actual copy online. The PHPA has an CBA FAQ section and even includes a number for their main office if you have questions. I don't get paid to look into the contracts of minor league hockey players, so I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

With that said, this is the explanation they give in the FAQ for how the AHL CBA impacts players with NHL deals:

It is recognized that Players who are signed to a National Hockey League (NHL) contract are bound by that contract, and the terms and conditions thereof while they are assigned to an AHL Club. It is agreed that no provision of this Agreement shall be applicable to a player playing under the NHL contract if such provision conflicts with his benefits or obligations as set forth in his NHL contract.

Again, that is not the exact language in the CBA, but that summary makes it seem pretty clear that we would hold his rights and be able to send wherever we want if we sign him to an NHL contract. A Standard AHL Contract is a provision of the AHL CBA, so it very much appears that a guy having an NHL contract supercedes his AHL contract even when he is assigned to the AHL.

Now, maybe there is language in the AHL CBA that prohibits a player under an AHL contract from signing an NHL deal. If that is the case, the Wolves could argue that the NHL contract he gets with us is invalid. This is such a niche issue that it could very well fall through the cracks of a their CBA or even be covered by an exception/subsection not included in that broad summary.

I'd wager that all AHL contracts contain a clause that allows the player to void them without notice if they receive an NHL offer. Given the salary difference between the AHL and NHL, retaining the ability to jump to the NHL if a team comes calling really should be a huge priority for the PHPA. A 2 week NHL stint at league minimum is worth the minimum annual AHL salary. And the AHL salary most guys make on 2 way NHL deals is usually at least double the minimum AHL salary. The players would be doing themselves a huge disservice if they didn't bargain for the ability to get out of their AHL contract in order to sign an NHL contract.

Realistically, the fact that the Wolves aren't already saying they own his rights and pressing for him to come to their camp tells me that his contract and the AHL CBA make it pretty clear that he can fight for an NHL contract that would completely negate in obligation he has to the Wolves.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that question with certainty because I don't have a copy of the AHL CBA. Unlike the NHL CBA, neither the AHL or the PHPA posts an actual copy online. The PHPA has an CBA FAQ section and even includes a number for their main office if you have questions. I don't get paid to look into the contracts of minor league hockey players, so I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

With that said, this is the explanation they give in the FAQ for how the AHL CBA impacts players with NHL deals:

It is recognized that Players who are signed to a National Hockey League (NHL) contract are bound by that contract, and the terms and conditions thereof while they are assigned to an AHL Club. It is agreed that no provision of this Agreement shall be applicable to a player playing under the NHL contract if such provision conflicts with his benefits or obligations as set forth in his NHL contract.

Again, that is not the exact language in the CBA, but that summary makes it seem pretty clear that we would hold his rights and be able to send wherever we want if we sign him to an NHL contract. A Standard AHL Contract is a provision of the AHL CBA, so it very much appears that a guy having an NHL contract supercedes his AHL contract even when he is assigned to the AHL.

Now, maybe there is language in the AHL CBA that prohibits a player under an AHL contract from signing an NHL deal. If that is the case, the Wolves could argue that the NHL contract he gets with us is invalid. This is such a niche issue that it could very well fall through the cracks of a their CBA or even be covered by an exception/subsection not included in that broad summary.

I'd wager that all AHL contracts contain a clause that allows the player to void them without notice if they receive an NHL offer. Given the salary difference between the AHL and NHL, retaining the ability to jump to the NHL if a team comes calling really should be a huge priority for the PHPA. A 2 week NHL stint at league minimum is worth the minimum annual AHL salary. And the AHL salary most guys make on 2 way NHL deals is usually at least double the minimum AHL salary. The players would be doing themselves a huge disservice if they didn't bargain for the ability to get out of their AHL contract in order to sign an NHL contract.

Realistically, the fact that the Wolves aren't already saying they own his rights and pressing for him to come to their camp tells me that his contract and the AHL CBA make it pretty clear that he can fight for an NHL contract that would completely negate in obligation he has to the Wolves.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there is agreement in place to assign him to wolves if he clears waivers.

 

[mk80]

I'm not going to pretend I know the answer to that question with certainty because I don't have a copy of the AHL CBA. Unlike the NHL CBA, neither the AHL or the PHPA posts an actual copy online. The PHPA has an CBA FAQ section and even includes a number for their main office if you have questions. I don't get paid to look into the contracts of minor league hockey players, so I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

With that said, this is the explanation they give in the FAQ for how the AHL CBA impacts players with NHL deals:

It is recognized that Players who are signed to a National Hockey League (NHL) contract are bound by that contract, and the terms and conditions thereof while they are assigned to an AHL Club. It is agreed that no provision of this Agreement shall be applicable to a player playing under the NHL contract if such provision conflicts with his benefits or obligations as set forth in his NHL contract.

Again, that is not the exact language in the CBA, but that summary makes it seem pretty clear that we would hold his rights and be able to send wherever we want if we sign him to an NHL contract. A Standard AHL Contract is a provision of the AHL CBA, so it very much appears that a guy having an NHL contract supercedes his AHL contract even when he is assigned to the AHL.

Now, maybe there is language in the AHL CBA that prohibits a player under an AHL contract from signing an NHL deal. If that is the case, the Wolves could argue that the NHL contract he gets with us is invalid. This is such a niche issue that it could very well fall through the cracks of a their CBA or even be covered by an exception/subsection not included in that broad summary.

I'd wager that all AHL contracts contain a clause that allows the player to void them without notice if they receive an NHL offer. Given the salary difference between the AHL and NHL, retaining the ability to jump to the NHL if a team comes calling really should be a huge priority for the PHPA. A 2 week NHL stint at league minimum is worth the minimum annual AHL salary. And the AHL salary most guys make on 2 way NHL deals is usually at least double the minimum AHL salary. The players would be doing themselves a huge disservice if they didn't bargain for the ability to get out of their AHL contract in order to sign an NHL contract.

Realistically, the fact that the Wolves aren't already saying they own his rights and pressing for him to come to their camp tells me that his contract and the AHL CBA make it pretty clear that he can fight for an NHL contract that would completely negate in obligation he has to the Wolves.

As always you have such a well thought out comment!

My thinking is along the same lines that the Wolves won't mind their players receiving call ups to the NHL, as that is a major selling point on getting players to sign with them as an independent franchise. I'm sure the AHL has some sort of plan in place for how a situation such as him being signed by the Blues and then put through waivers to the AHL would play out. But there hasn't been an independent franchise in the AHL in as long as I can remember so I'm just interested to see what will happen with it.

 

[Bobby Orrtuzzo]

https://x.com/lkorac10/status/1696963846844326283?s=46&t=vil8XinIKpe28a9JUKg-vA

Edit: also, how the hell do you embed tweets now? When did they change lol

 

[STL fan in MN]

https://x.com/lkorac10/status/1696963846844326283?s=46&t=vil8XinIKpe28a9JUKg-vA

Edit: also, how the hell do you embed tweets now? When did they change lol

Probably because the embedding feature is built for “twitter”, not “X”. Probably some coding that now needs to be updated.

As with all things, I blame Elon Musk.

 

[joe galiba]

Probably because the embedding feature is built for “twitter”, not “X”. Probably some coding that now needs to be updated.

As with all things, I blame Elon Musk.

https://x.com/lkorac10/status/1696963846844326283?s=46&t=vil8XinIKpe28a9JUKg-vA

Edit: also, how the hell do you embed tweets now? When did they change lol

I see this start with X.com and I think of the old MicroProse computer game, X-Com about an alien invasion

aliens/Elon Musk, hmm... I wonder....

 

[Quaz]

I have been watching the series Winning Time about the Lakers and it made me think about the Blues when they had all the lockeroom issues with Magic getting paid. I really didn’t buy into the possibility that the contracts to Kyrou and Thomas had poisoned the lockeroom when JR reported it, but I could see the possibility of it now, and this would explain the huge drop off in the Blues record last year. DA’s comments in the off season point to this as well. Hopefully, some of these guys can emerge as leaders and get the team back to pulling in the same direction, and the changes to the coaching staff work well.

 

[Xerloris]

I have been watching the series Winning Time about the Lakers and it made me think about the Blues when they had all the lockeroom issues with Magic getting paid. I really didn’t buy into the possibility that the contracts to Kyrou and Thomas had poisoned the lockeroom when JR reported it, but I could see the possibility of it now, and this would explain the huge drop off in the Blues record last year. DA’s comments in the off season point to this as well. Hopefully, some of these guys can emerge as leaders and get the team back to pulling in the same direction, and the changes to the coaching staff work well.

If anyone caused a problem it was Tarasenko. The team drastically improved once he was gone.

 

[Brian39]

I have been watching the series Winning Time about the Lakers and it made me think about the Blues when they had all the lockeroom issues with Magic getting paid. I really didn’t buy into the possibility that the contracts to Kyrou and Thomas had poisoned the lockeroom when JR reported it, but I could see the possibility of it now, and this would explain the huge drop off in the Blues record last year. DA’s comments in the off season point to this as well. Hopefully, some of these guys can emerge as leaders and get the team back to pulling in the same direction, and the changes to the coaching staff work well.

I still don't remotely buy it. These guys all have agents and any NHL veteran should be well familiar with how the business works.

Tarasenko became the Blues highest paid player after a single season of 1st line production. He was 23.

ROR became Buffalo's highest paid player before ever playing a game for them. His career high was 64 points and that was the only year he topped 55 points. He also held out with Colorado off his ELC after putting up his first 55 point season. He had 26 points in each of the previous 2 years (he played 74+ games each year). He was 21 when he held out and 24 when he signed his contract with Buffalo.

Saad became the highest paid skater in Columbus coming off his ELC. He was coming off a 52 point season career-high (and 11 points in 23 playoff games). He was 23

These guys know exactly how it works in the NHL and made their big payday by selling their prime years for as much as they could when they got the chance. I have a very hard time believing that they conveniently forgot about the leverage that comes to a player when they reach 1st line status before turning 25.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I still don't remotely buy it. These guys all have agents and any NHL veteran should be well familiar with how the business works.

Tarasenko became the Blues highest paid player after a single season of 1st line production. He was 23.

ROR became Buffalo's highest paid player before ever playing a game for them. His career high was 64 points and that was the only year he topped 55 points. He also held out with Colorado off his ELC after putting up his first 55 point season. He had 26 points in each of the previous 2 years (he played 74+ games each year). He was 21 when he held out and 24 when he signed his contract with Buffalo.

Saad became the highest paid skater in Columbus coming off his ELC. He was coming off a 52 point season career-high (and 11 points in 23 playoff games). He was 23

These guys know exactly how it works in the NHL and made their big payday by selling their prime years for as much as they could when they got the chance. I have a very hard time believing that they conveniently forgot about the leverage that comes to a player when they reach 1st line status before turning 25.

I absolutely think that Tarasenko particularly was sore that Thomas and Kyrou got their big deals and he never got an offer at all. And while I don’t think the vets generally resent kids in general getting big bucks, but if they think particular kid didn’t work hard enough or seem committed enough then I could see that not sitting well.

 

[BlueDream]

I don’t give any attention to talk about locker room issues because all guys have to do is play hard.

If Kyrou and Thomas commit to playing better 200 foot games, nobody will have a problem with what they’re making. And that goes for the veterans too - Schenn, Saad, the entire defense, etc - everyone has to pull their weight to live up to their contracts.

If this team plays better defensively, they’ll win more games and thus the locker room will be fine. Winning cures everything, that’s really all there is to it.

 

[Mike Liut]

If anyone caused a problem it was Tarasenko. The team drastically improved once he was gone.

im glad he’s gone tbh

 

[Linkens Mastery]

If anyone caused a problem it was Tarasenko. The team drastically improved once he was gone.

If Tarasenko was whining he should have been gone immediately. He got his contract at around the same age as Kyrou/Thomas making more against the Cap than either Kyrou/Thomas and he cried for a trade for over a year before those contracts were given out.

 

[Reality Czech]

I don’t give any attention to talk about locker room issues because all guys have to do is play hard.

If Kyrou and Thomas commit to playing better 200 foot games, nobody will have a problem with what they’re making. And that goes for the veterans too - Schenn, Saad, the entire defense, etc - everyone has to pull their weight to live up to their contracts.

If this team plays better defensively, they’ll win more games and thus the locker room will be fine. Winning cures everything, that’s really all there is to it.

Exactly, you never hear about locker room issues when a team is winning. I bet they are overblown most of the time. Regarding the Lakers, how many championships did they win during the Showtime era? Seems like their locker room issues didn't stop them from winning.

 

[Brian39]

I absolutely think that Tarasenko particularly was sore that Thomas and Kyrou got their big deals and he never got an offer at all. And while I don’t think the vets generally resent kids in general getting big bucks, but if they think particular kid didn’t work hard enough or seem committed enough then I could see that not sitting well.

I don't think he was sore about their contracts. I think he was sore that he was still here. Every report I saw last season was that he still intended to hit the UFA market in the summer. His agent (at the time) who had a pretty clear track record of negotiating in the public made no indication that he was interested in an extension, JR (who clearly had sources in Tarasenko's camp) never made any suggestion that he was open to an extension, and Tarasenko himself never said anything about looking to stay beyond last season.

He made no public indication about wanting an offer and it is more than reasonable to believe that the guy who very publicly requested a trade would not be interested in staying beyond his current deal. If he wanted an offer, the onus was on him to come to the table first and he had ample opportunity to come to the table as a ppg+ player before we gave extensions to Thomas/Kyrou (July 13 and September 13).

Tarasenko pretty clearly wasn't happy this season, but I think it is significantly more likely that it was because he felt that he should have been traded last summer. Army's (very reasonable) explanation for not trading him in the summer of 2021 was that teams weren't making reasonable offers to the Blues and he wasn't just going to give a player like Tarasenko away (and/or retain a significant chunk of money to do so). The onus was on him to increase his value and he went out and scored 34 goals and 82 points in 75 games.

I'd wager good money that he felt he lived up to his end of the deal and that Army should have used that great season to find a fair trade. I get why Army decided to simply keep him, but he absolutely could have gotten a good return for him over the summer. I also get why that decision would piss off Tarasenko. He was a great pro in 2021/22 and it is pretty reasonable to feel slighted that Army didn't reward that season by finding a deal.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I don't think he was sore about their contracts. I think he was sore that he was still here. Every report I saw last season was that he still intended to hit the UFA market in the summer. His agent (at the time) who had a pretty clear track record of negotiating in the public made no indication that he was interested in an extension, JR (who clearly had sources in Tarasenko's camp) never made any suggestion that he was open to an extension, and Tarasenko himself never said anything about looking to stay beyond last season.

He made no public indication about wanting an offer and it is more than reasonable to believe that the guy who very publicly requested a trade would not be interested in staying beyond his current deal. If he wanted an offer, the onus was on him to come to the table first and he had ample opportunity to come to the table as a ppg+ player before we gave extensions to Thomas/Kyrou (July 13 and September 13).

Tarasenko pretty clearly wasn't happy this season, but I think it is significantly more likely that it was because he felt that he should have been traded last summer. Army's (very reasonable) explanation for not trading him in the summer of 2021 was that teams weren't making reasonable offers to the Blues and he wasn't just going to give a player like Tarasenko away (and/or retain a significant chunk of money to do so). The onus was on him to increase his value and he went out and scored 34 goals and 82 points in 75 games.

I'd wager good money that he felt he lived up to his end of the deal and that Army should have used that great season to find a fair trade. I get why Army decided to simply keep him, but he absolutely could have gotten a good return for him over the summer. I also get why that decision would piss off Tarasenko. He was a great pro in 2021/22 and it is pretty reasonable to feel slighted that Army didn't reward that season by finding a deal.

You assume a consistent logic to him that I don’t see. He wanted to be dealt, but he also wanted to be appreciated, and giving money to others and not him fed into that. He specifically whined to the press about the club not offering him hew deal, either right before or after he was dealt (forgot about exact timing). It is all of a theme, though, tank felt disrespected and this all fit together in his mind. And that is why he crapped in the punch bowl of our last season.

 

[Brian39]

You assume a consistent logic to him that I don’t see. He wanted to be dealt, but he also wanted to be appreciated, and giving money to others and not him fed into that. He specifically whined to the about the club not offering him hew deal, either right before or after he was dealt (forgot about exact timing). It is all of a theme, though, tank dealt disrespected and this all fit together in his mind. And that is why he crapped in the punch bowl of our last season.

I must have missed that completely because I have no recollection of it. My 1 minute google didn't turn anything up, but I think that is because each search term I can think of brings up articles about the drama in 2021 or his Russian interview about not being named captain.

 

[STL fan in MN]

I still don't remotely buy it. These guys all have agents and any NHL veteran should be well familiar with how the business works.

Tarasenko became the Blues highest paid player after a single season of 1st line production. He was 23.

ROR became Buffalo's highest paid player before ever playing a game for them. His career high was 64 points and that was the only year he topped 55 points. He also held out with Colorado off his ELC after putting up his first 55 point season. He had 26 points in each of the previous 2 years (he played 74+ games each year). He was 21 when he held out and 24 when he signed his contract with Buffalo.

Saad became the highest paid skater in Columbus coming off his ELC. He was coming off a 52 point season career-high (and 11 points in 23 playoff games). He was 23

These guys know exactly how it works in the NHL and made their big payday by selling their prime years for as much as they could when they got the chance. I have a very hard time believing that they conveniently forgot about the leverage that comes to a player when they reach 1st line status before turning 25.

I doubt they forgot about the business side of things and the leverage some young players have but basic human nature of things like jealousy, whataboutism, the comparison game, fairness, deservedness etc. still come into play.

Right or wrong, there appeared to be some bruised egos in that locker room last season.

 

[joe galiba]

I still maintain the bigger problem is players who were UFA's
the uncertainty creates a whole host of issues affecting the focus necessary to play at the highest level

 

[Linkens Mastery]

I must have missed that completely because I have no recollection of it. My 1 minute google didn't turn anything up, but I think that is because each search term I can think of brings up articles about the drama in 2021 or his Russian interview about not being named captain.

 

[Thallis]

I know you're not the one who said that, but this doesn't equate to whining about not getting an offer.

 

[Reality Czech]

I know you're not the one who said that, but this doesn't equate to whining about not getting an offer.

Why would he whine about getting an offer that he didn't even want in the first place. Everyone knew Tarasenko wasn't gonna sign an extension here. Do people honestly think that a moody Tarasenko is the reason we missed the playoffs? He's still a professional that hates losing.

 

[Majorityof1]

You assume a consistent logic to him that I don’t see. He wanted to be dealt, but he also wanted to be appreciated, and giving money to others and not him fed into that. He specifically whined to the press about the club not offering him hew deal, either right before or after he was dealt (forgot about exact timing). It is all of a theme, though, tank felt disrespected and this all fit together in his mind. And that is why he crapped in the punch bowl of our last season.

If that is it, this is exactly how bullshit narratives get started. That is not whining AT ALL. Maybe there was more. I don't remember anything more than that. But if enough people take this milquetoast quote and call it whining, that the created narrative gets remembered and not the quote.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

If that is it, this is exactly how bullshit narratives get started. That is not whining AT ALL. Maybe there was more. I don't remember anything more than that. But if enough people take this milquetoast quote and call it whining, that the created narrative gets remembered and not the quote.

I was just posting the only thing that came to mind.

 

[Majorityof1]

I was just posting the only thing that came to mind.

I know. I wasn't blaming you. I think that is all that there is. The self-serving, self-fulfilling narrative is way too common here. Posters don't want to miss players who leave. So they take a possible fault in the player's character, real or imagined, and then blow it up to gigantic proportions. Every single piece of information about the player is then warped and twisted to fit that narrative. The actual reality of situation is totally buried by the narrative.

Look at Pietrangelo. He has been labeled a greedy, no-good cheapskate who everyone on the team hated. When a wedding picture pops up and he's not in it? "Of course, he wasn't invited, everyone hated him". Its BS. Maybe he just had something else to do. Or maybe he wasn't close to other players personally, but was still respected professionally.

Tarasenko is now a whiner, when he absolutely never whined despite wanting a trade. His agent leaked his request to the press, but Tarasenko remained professional. But now we are going to besmirk his character because it is easier to lose a "whiner" than a solid player and all around good dude who did his best in an awkward situation.