2022 Draft Discussion (after the trade)

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I will tell you what it isn't for the guys with the podcasts, it's never the fault of the people granting the podcasters "insider access" to the Kings organization.

Welcome to King's Pravda Insider!
I don't know if this is directed at me or not but I'll just reiterate once again...


My issue isn't with the final evaluation of how the prospects are coming along... it's with which aspect of the organization is getting the blame IF you want to believe that it's a systemic issue and not just individual players with individual careers going through individual stuff.

And I DO have criticisms for player decisions the organization has made over the years.

but maybe you're just talking about Mayor and Bernstein I dunno
 
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Players have to be given star opportunity to produce as stars in order to become stars.
So you agree then that is a development issue. Not giving the proper situation to the picks you tanked for in favor of the players on the teams that tanked is totally backwards and most definitely a development issue. Developing Byfield, Turcotte and Vilardi to be complimentary pieces to Kopitars team is the choice they made. Too soon to say about Clarke but it doesnt look like they are moving out Doughty, Roy, or Walker right now because they think they can win like this.
Thats a development issue and you really just said it yourself.
 
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The reason I'm so dismissive is because I still don't get the sense that you've even tried to understand or in fact even acknowledge my critique. I've laid it out in other threads. I've listed players, draft years, free agent signings, trades... I've been pretty thorough in presenting what I think is an alternative C option to your A or B argument and I've never once felt like it was even acknowledged much less refuted.

I don't think you're dumb and I don't think you don't know what you're talking about. I think you and others you argue with are missing an explanation for something you consider to be a problem.
Welp, I've responded to your critiques and thought I had even apologized when you felt like you weren't getting heard or recognized. And if I didn't apologize, then I apologize now. Either way, if your preference is to be dismissive and mocking for cogent but disagreeable arguments, then have fun.

From what I recall, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, you feel the issue is more stemmed from 1) a combination of not having the best picks 2) not having it be a priority of management to bring in top young players considering the core they had 3) organizational prioritization of defense first and having grinding forwards (primarily during the Lombardi years). The reason I do not subscribe to this line of thinking is because:
- Teams can still develop top-line players outside of the first round. If a team NEEDS a high pick in order to hit, then there's something wrong.
- Blake is approaching his sixth offseason now. He has been with the Kings in a management position since 2013. He has had plenty of time to reflect, evaluate, and implement his vision for a successful organization. And for the good work he HAS done, there is a glaring hole that has yet to be fixed at a convincing level.
- Blake and Co. have frequently talked about "opening up" the game, playing with pace, and having the game more fun, because players love to score goals. Yet, we're not seeing results yet in the pipeline.

And the scary thing is there's talks of missing the playoffs next season, but it could be a GOOD thing, because the expectation is the young players will be much more productive.

Heck, if there is that type of surge from the prospects where they produce like top line players, it would absolutely lessen the sting of missing the playoffs... though that would also imply the veterans would have a severe enough drop off to cause the playoffs to be missed, leading to a concern of contracts.

The explanation for circumstances, in my opinion, are only valid for so long.

But hey, it could also be that Blake doesn't put as much focus on offense. Picking players like Clarke, Vilardi, Kaliyev, etc would be a very odd decision if that were the case. But I'd at least credit him for picking players who fit in his vision if offense isn't a priority.
 
Colorado is where they're at because they hit it big with their first round picks. MacKinnon (1st), Landeskog (2nd), Rantanen (10th), Makar (4th), and recent picks from 2019 in Byram (4th) and Newhook (16th), have contributed.

The Kings haven't seen that kind of impact with their first round selections since Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty.
Yup.

That is how you successfully rebuild. You draft multiple Hall of Famers and build around them.

Worked in LA, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa, Washington.

What team is Rob Blake modeling his rebuild off?
 
That second point is what is really depressing.

If they had just gone the safe route twice or swung for the fences twice we have Kopitar’s replacement ready for next season should he falter more.

Instead we have AK as the #1C at 35
Well, the cruel twist in this actually is that (I think) they took the big swing because they thought they had money in the bank with Turcotte. While that hasn't worked out...I'm still hoping QB does.
 
Colorado is where they're at because they hit it big with their first round picks. MacKinnon (1st), Landeskog (2nd), Rantanen (10th), Makar (4th), and recent picks from 2019 in Byram (4th) and Newhook (16th), have contributed.

The Kings haven't seen that kind of impact with their first round selections since Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty.

Yup.

That is how you successfully rebuild. You draft multiple Hall of Famers and build around them.

Worked in LA, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa, Washington.

What team is Rob Blake modeling his rebuild off?

Wow, imagine that--their first rounders from over a decade ago are contributing. Holy shit is this an insane comparison between rebuilds. The Kings prospects from those years aren't contributing becuase they already won Cups and got traded. It took this long for Colorado to make serious noise.

Landeskog-2011
MacKinnon-2013
Rantanen-2015

Makar is special, from 2017.

Byram is getting a chance unlike the Kings prospects and Newhook has one goal in 14 playoff games on one of the most fearsome offenses in memory--if that was a King he'd be getting railroaded here.

If you want to give Turcotte until 2030 and Byfield until 2032, then we can have a decent evaluation vs Colorado. But you wouldn't even give Turcotte until 2020. In short, if "that's how you rebuild," you're going to need another 8 years of patience when you can't even grant one.

This one is completely off the rails here.

"Just draft hall of famers." Come on. Are 31 teams NOT trying to do that or?
 
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The Kings prospects from those years aren't contributing because they already won Cups and got traded.

The Kings drafted the following forward in the first and second rounds between 2010 and 2016

That's seven years and theoretically 14 opportunities to draft a forward.

Tyler Toffoli
Tanner Pearson
Adrian Kempe

That's it. That's the list.

EDIT : Oh and Zykov. Sorry.
 
I don't know if this is directed at me or not but I'll just reiterate once again...


My issue isn't with the final evaluation of how the prospects are coming along... it's with which aspect of the organization is getting the blame IF you want to believe that it's a systemic issue and not just individual players with individual careers going through individual stuff.

And I DO have criticisms for player decisions the organization has made over the years.

but maybe you're just talking about Mayor and Bernstein I dunno
It is more directed at the others you mention. I do agree with something you said regarding young players needing to be given opportunities in order to develop. For example, I don't see the value in giving Kopitar the lion's share of PP time on the first unit when he spends his time with his ass glued to the half-wall every PP.

Those minutes need to go to players like Byfield, Vilardi, etc. next season.
 
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It is more directed at the others you mention. I do agree with something you said regarding young players needing to be given opportunities in order to develop. For example, I don't see the value in giving Kopitar the lion's share of PP time on the first unit when he spends his time with his ass glued to the half-wall every PP.

Those minutes need to go to players like Byfield, Vilardi, etc. next season.
s'all I'm sayin'!

Sort of.
 
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Wow, imagine that--their first rounders from over a decade ago are contributing. Holy shit is this an insane comparison between rebuilds. The Kings prospects from those years aren't contributing becuase they already won Cups and got traded. It took this long for Colorado to make serious noise.

Landeskog-2011
MacKinnon-2013
Rantanen-2015

Makar is special, from 2017.

Byram is getting a chance unlike the Kings prospects and Newhook has one goal in 14 playoff games on one of the most fearsome offenses in memory--if that was a King he'd be getting railroaded here.

If you want to give Turcotte until 2030 and Byfield until 2032, then we can have a decent evaluation vs Colorado. But you wouldn't even give Turcotte until 2020.

This one is completely off the rails here.

So you just ignore how MacKinnon and Landeskog were performing after they were drafted until they got to this point. Notice how they also didn’t rush Makar and let him play two years in the NCAA? Shocking, I know.

Kerfoot is a role player now, but Byram is a top 4 dman for them and has bounced back nicely after some injury scares and is putting up points in the playoffs.

Adrian Kempe was the last first round pick the team drafted who is in a top line role now, and that was a decade ago. Took him a while to get there too, but he’s finally proving himself after he was miscast so many seasons as a center.

Can you name any other former first rounders the Kings have drafted who’ve made a similar impact since then? The answer is no. Quit being purposely obtuse.
 
Wow, imagine that--their first rounders from over a decade ago are contributing. Holy shit is this an insane comparison between rebuilds. The Kings prospects from those years aren't contributing becuase they already won Cups and got traded. It took this long for Colorado to make serious noise.

Landeskog-2011
MacKinnon-2013
Rantanen-2015

Makar is special, from 2017.

Byram is getting a chance unlike the Kings prospects and Newhook has one goal in 14 playoff games on one of the most fearsome offenses in memory--if that was a King he'd be getting railroaded here.

If you want to give Turcotte until 2030 and Byfield until 2032, then we can have a decent evaluation vs Colorado. But you wouldn't even give Turcotte until 2020. In short, if "that's how you rebuild," you're going to need another 8 years of patience when you can't even grant one.

This one is completely off the rails here.

"Just draft hall of famers." Come on. Are 31 teams NOT trying to do that or?
It took MacKinnon a while to get there, but man has he ever arrived.
 
So you just ignore how MacKinnon and Landeskog were performing after they were drafted until they got to this point. Notice how they also didn’t rush Makar and let him play two years in the NCAA? Shocking, I know.

Kerfoot is a role player now, but Byram is a top 4 dman for them and has bounced back nicely after some injury scares and is putting up points in the playoffs.

Adrian Kempe was the last first round pick the team drafted who is in a top line role now, and that was a decade ago. Took him a while to get there too, but he’s finally proving himself after he was miscast so many seasons as a center.

Can you name any other former first rounders the Kings have drafted who’ve made a similar impact since then? The answer is no. Quit being purposely obtuse.

im not ignoring that at all! In fact, that's a major part of the point.

Ignoring that MacKinnon is more like McDavid than Turcotte--he came in and had a strong rookie year then three absolutely mediocre years before blowing up in...D+5.

Landeskog came in pretty NHL ready, and came out pretty strong...then tabled off and even had a 33 point season at age 24 before emerging as the guy we know now.

Neither of those guys were projects--but it took time and patience for them to truly emerge.


If you want to compare to the Avs and a 'proper' rebuild, you need the patience of Joe Sakic. In this thread, we're dumping on a 19 year old and a couple of early 20s who have had major injuries and covid derailment time.

In @Herby 's philosophy, we would have had to trade a 21 year old 16 goal MacKinnon before we lost more value.

Edit: and if you're going to want to say hey they were at least in the NHL putting up 50 point seasons, well, that's a feature of the current rebuild, they're not getting dumped onto a historically awful team like the early 2010s avs.
 
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Can you name any first rounders the Kings drafted between 2011 and 2016?

Why is 2016 being used as a cutoff? They’ve had a good number of first round picks since the new management team stepped in, and the results from first round picks since then has been rather disappointing. Most of the setbacks have been due to injuries, but it’s becoming very comparable to the draft success of first rounders under the Dave Taylor regime.

Here’s another example of a team who has drafted well and is seeing results from their first round selections: the Carolina Hurricanes. And they had a 13th overall selection from 2020 in the lineup who was making an impact during the season and the playoffs.

The issue is the results they are getting from the first round selections they have made, which has been minimal at best, over the past decade. That isn’t writing off Byfield or Bjornfot or Kupari, but it’s noticeable when you compare it to teams who have had success with their first rounders who have come after the Kings’ selections.

Is it coaching? We can point to Kempe and say that his arrival was delayed because they forced him to play a position he wasn’t suitable for, and it took him about 8 years to get to this point. Then again, he was also the second to last pick in the first round in 2014, and maybe that was an order from management to play him at center. They did this before when they tried to convert Brian Boyle to a defenseman.

The verdict isn’t in yet for many of their first round picks, but the clock is ticking, starting with the 2017 class.
 
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It is more directed at the others you mention. I do agree with something you said regarding young players needing to be given opportunities in order to develop. For example, I don't see the value in giving Kopitar the lion's share of PP time on the first unit when he spends his time with his ass glued to the half-wall every PP.

Those minutes need to go to players like Byfield, Vilardi, etc. next season.
The value in playing Kopitar on the PP is because he actually had production where Vilardi and Byfield sucked hard when it came to production. If you want to say Kaliyev deserved more time I would agree but not at the expense of Kopitar. Danault and Iafallo were the none producers on the PP. I think Byfield was moved to the NHL to soon and Vilardi regressed this year. When someone out produces Kopitar then they deserve his minutes.
 
The value in playing Kopitar on the PP is because he actually had production where Vilardi and Byfield sucked hard when it came to production. If you want to say Kaliyev deserved more time I would agree but not at the expense of Kopitar. Danault and Iafallo were the none producers on the PP. I think Byfield was moved to the NHL to soon and Vilardi regressed this year. When someone out produces Kopitar then they deserve his minutes.
Kopitar was 146th in goals in the league. Plays the most minutes and sometimes even stayed out for the full powerplay. 1 goal in the playoffs. Wasnt really matched up against McDavid and still ended up a minus.
No one has been given even remotely the same chance as him. Danault actually earned it and still wasnt given the role. No kid coming in is getting a real shot to even earn it then you criticize them for not earning it.
 
im not ignoring that at all! In fact, that's a major part of the point.

Ignoring that MacKinnon is more like McDavid than Turcotte--he came in and had a strong rookie year then three absolutely mediocre years before blowing up in...D+5.

Landeskog came in pretty NHL ready, and came out pretty strong...then tabled off and even had a 33 point season at age 24 before emerging as the guy we know now.

Neither of those guys were projects--but it took time and patience for them to truly emerge.


If you want to compare to the Avs and a 'proper' rebuild, you need the patience of Joe Sakic. In this thread, we're dumping on a 19 year old and a couple of early 20s who have had major injuries and covid derailment time.

In @Herby 's philosophy, we would have had to trade a 21 year old 16 goal MacKinnon before we lost more value.

Edit: and if you're going to want to say hey they were at least in the NHL putting up 50 point seasons, well, that's a feature of the current rebuild, they're not getting dumped onto a historically awful team like the early 2010s avs.

The other major sticking point is that the Avs built around their first rounders, unlike the current Kings. They had the likes of Stastny, O’Reilly, Duchene, and a few vets like Iginla and Tanguay when they stepped in to the league, but it was evident the future of the team was being built around the four stars who got the Avs to the Stanley Cup Final.

The last time the Kings built around their youth was when Kopitar, Brown, Doughty and Quick were all hitting their stride together in their early 20s (and Drew was still a teen). Quick came out of nowhere, and it took Brown a few seasons until he broke out as a top six forward, but you can tell instantly that Kopitar and Doughty were special players, and their best years are far behind them now. The big concern is, who is going to step in and fill their shoes? Clarke and Byfield have that potential, but we can’t say with certainty they’ll get there yet.
 
Kopitar was 146th in goals in the league. Plays the most minutes and sometimes even stayed out for the full powerplay. 1 goal in the playoffs. Wasnt really matched up against McDavid and still ended up a minus.
No one has been given even remotely the same chance as him. Danault actually earned it and still wasnt given the role. No kid coming in is getting a real shot to even earn it then you criticize them for not earning it.
Still led the team in scoring and Danault was mostly a non contributor on the PP. Everyone needs to earn there time even 2nd overall picks. Byfield should have been allowed to play the year in the AHL where he could have developed more.
 
The other major sticking point is that the Avs built around their first rounders, unlike the current Kings. They had the likes of Stastny, O’Reilly, Duchene, and a few vets like Iginla and Tamguay when they stepped in to the league, but it was evident the future of the team was being built around the four stars who got the Avs to the Stanley Cup Final.

The last time the Kings built around their youth was when Kopitar, Brown, Doughty and Quick were all hitting their stride together in their early 20s (and Drew was still a teen). Quick came out of nowhere, and it took Brown a few seasons until he broke out as a top six forward, but you can tell instantly that Kopitar and Doughty were special players, and their best years are far behind them. The big concern is, who is going to step in and fill their shoes? Clarke and Byfield have that potential, but we can’t say with certainty they’ll get there yet.

But that's the chicken and egg thing, isn't it?

Mac/Landeskog and Kopitar/Doughty were able to walk right onto key roles on dogshit teams and figure it out. They were force fed preferential minutes and PP time because there were no other options. They weren't forced to refine their games until it was 'time to win.'

Byfield and co have been restricted. Can argue that they haven't shown much, but the counter argument is they haven't been allowed to, either. They've been forced to refine their games first. Turcotte wasn't even getting PP1 time in Ontario, and in some of the games I viewed, he didn't even get PP2/cleanup time!

I mean I'm sure you know where I stand about what should be going on with the youth but there's a pretty big disparity in how these rebuilds have gone with respect to how the youth were integrated and grew.
 
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Kopitar was 146th in goals in the league. Plays the most minutes and sometimes even stayed out for the full powerplay. 1 goal in the playoffs. Wasnt really matched up against McDavid and still ended up a minus.
No one has been given even remotely the same chance as him. Danault actually earned it and still wasnt given the role. No kid coming in is getting a real shot to even earn it then you criticize them for not earning it.

hell a kid like Grundstrom earns it and scores goals three games in a row then is benched for a returning struggling vet.

It's disgusting, not just bad.
 
Wow, imagine that--their first rounders from over a decade ago are contributing. Holy shit is this an insane comparison between rebuilds. The Kings prospects from those years aren't contributing becuase they already won Cups and got traded. It took this long for Colorado to make serious noise.

Landeskog-2011
MacKinnon-2013
Rantanen-2015

Makar is special, from 2017.

Byram is getting a chance unlike the Kings prospects and Newhook has one goal in 14 playoff games on one of the most fearsome offenses in memory--if that was a King he'd be getting railroaded here.

If you want to give Turcotte until 2030 and Byfield until 2032, then we can have a decent evaluation vs Colorado. But you wouldn't even give Turcotte until 2020. In short, if "that's how you rebuild," you're going to need another 8 years of patience when you can't even grant one.

This one is completely off the rails here.

"Just draft hall of famers." Come on. Are 31 teams NOT trying to do that or?

So which is it, is he back to being a Jonathan Toews Hall of Famer, last week it was Lizotte +, can’t even figure it out it changes with you every week.

Gave up on before 2020? You mean correctly predicting what type of player he projected as at the next level? I said Andrew Copp and you said Jonathan Toews, now I am being criticized as “giving up on a player”, I guess correctly saying someone’s ceiling as a solid middle six is giving up on in your book. But there is nothing wrong with proclaiming that player as the next Hall of Famer.

Would it have have better if I went on Madison with your homer glasses and called him the next Jonathan Toews. But I guess having a correct view on a Kings pick is a bad thing because what did you say “not invested in his success” ? In your eyes it’s better to be optimistic and wrong than pessimistic and right.

And again, funny how you call me out for saying I have irrational views on a player. What is more irrational, saying Alex Turcotte is a future middle six player or saying on this forum last summer that you wouldn’t trade Turcotte for Zegras, Seider or Caufield, that is what you said. Which view is more irrational?

As Ziggy already correctly pointed out, those players all had immediate success in the NHL, none of the Kings marquee prospects have.

I said on this forum earlier today that I would trade Byfield for a 1st liner (like Pasta or Miller) not that I’d trade him for anything. Byfield is also not MacKinnon, but for someone who likes to compare Vilardi to Perry (a former league MVP) or Turcotte to Toews ( a future HOF’er) I guess it’s par for the course. Will Brandt Clarke be the next Ray Bourque or we going to shoot for the moon for Bobby Orr?

But getting back to my trade suggestion, while I didn’t say I’d trade QB for the best offer I could get, I did say id trade Turcotte for the best offer we could get in the fall of 2019, was that analysis wrong. Considering what the Kings could have gotten would they have been in better shape now with that trade? Yea they would, but here is where I am called a fake fan. Because I wasn’t blindly all in on a high pick with obvious flaws to his game.

Is your opinion now that we should wait a decade to evaluate draft picks? Sure sounds like it.

Also, your last comment makes no sense. I simply pointed out a correct fact that the successful teams of the post lockout era were all built on the backs of drafting game breaking Hall of Fame talent, the Kings included a long with Pittsburgh, Chicago, Tampa . And yes there are plenty of teams trying to build that way right now, and the Kings could have been one of them. But the Kings chose to prematurely end their rebuild without a single young player establishing themselves as anything close to a star player to return to the black hole of the early 00’s where we make the playoffs the final week of the season and start on the road vs more talented teams. It was a wonderful era of hockey.
 
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Soooo…..about that 2022 draft…….I’m still going with Yurov, Ohgren, Kulich. Ok with going towards Pickering and Miroshnichenko, huge risk/reward on him.
 
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The other major sticking point is that the Avs built around their first rounders, unlike the current Kings. They had the likes of Stastny, O’Reilly, Duchene, and a few vets like Iginla and Tanguay when they stepped in to the league, but it was evident the future of the team was being built around the four stars who got the Avs to the Stanley Cup Final.

The last time the Kings built around their youth was when Kopitar, Brown, Doughty and Quick were all hitting their stride together in their early 20s (and Drew was still a teen). Quick came out of nowhere, and it took Brown a few seasons until he broke out as a top six forward, but you can tell instantly that Kopitar and Doughty were special players, and their best years are far behind them now. The big concern is, who is going to step in and fill their shoes? Clarke and Byfield have that potential, but we can’t say with certainty they’ll get there yet.
You hit the nail on the head about the instantly knowing they were special players. You just knew right away that 11 and 8 were going to be special players for the next 15 years.

We have had nothing close to players like that since then. Those are the types of players you have to draft to win championships. And your rebuild should not be over until you have atleast one player like that on your roster, and really probably 2.

I still struggle to see what team Blake is trying to rebuild like. What team from the past 15 years does the Kings rebuild remind you of?
 

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