Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[JediOrderPizza]

I have higher hopes for both than Dave f***in Bolland. I'd easily trade them knowing that was their fate.

Also think there is a massive gap between Dave Bolland and Ryan Kesler.

 

[Dotter]

I have higher hopes for both than Dave f***in Bolland. I'd easily trade them knowing that was their fate.

Also think there is a massive gap between Dave Bolland and Ryan Kesler.

Both were thorny in their prime. If all of one of Kasper or Danielsson does is score 50points and score the Stanley cup game winning goal, then I would say that isn't so bad. But you want to trade that knowing their fate. I'd rather the cup knowing that is the fate. Otherwise, what is the point of NHL hockey?

But yeah, sure. I'd trade Kasper for a 1st line center not knowing that future. Sure as hell wouldn't be for EP40 with that shit contract tho- That is a surefire way Yzerman will successfully ruin the rebuild.

 

[DamonDRW]

How many 3rd line 50point centers are in the NHL? Yzerman can still can find a cost controlled 60-65 point guy for the 2nd line if both Kasper and Nate never reach 60. That's all Eriksson Ek is and he was drafted 20th.

Look, Wings are not going to be the TML or prime Bolts of their hayday. This version of the Wings are going to be a rugged deep team with no generational superstars. I would say Yzerman is building a poor mans, albeit more rugged version of the 2012 Blackhawks.

I'd be ecstatic if Kasper and Danielsson are 50 point centers with winning character. They will be the more like a 50 point PIA Kesler and Dave Bolland in my mind, not the Comphers. a healthy Kesler was a BEAST despite only being a 49 to 58 point center (minus a few outlier 70+ point seasons). Dave Bolland was an HUGE reason Hawks won the cup with the cup clinching game 6 goal against Boston, and he never scored more than 47 points in a season. That's not Compher!

You need these kind of guys to win the big silver trophies! That's the character Danielsson and Kasper are.

and then you need to recall that for Bollands and Keslers to perform the way they did you need to shelter them with real superstars like Sedins, Hossa, Kane, Towes, Keith, etc

 

[RabidBadger]

This is spoken like someone who hated Abdelkader becaue of the contract and completely glosses over that he was well liked before the end of that contract.

No. Just no. I didn't care for him when he was at MSU. I caught a lot of blowback here for saying he was a scrub after his "amazing" career year of 40-something points. Just because people keep regurgitating the mantra he was hated solely because of his contract does not make it true.

If anything is being glossed over it's that people turned on him because they realized he was ineffective without someone to carry him AND he had a bad contract.

 

[Snuggs]

Both were thorny in their prime. If all of one of Kasper or Danielsson does is score 50points and score the Stanley cup game winning goal, then I would say that isn't so bad. But you want to trade that knowing their fate. I'd rather the cup knowing that is the fate. Otherwise, what is the point of NHL hockey?

But yeah, sure. I'd trade Kasper for a 1st line center not knowing that future. Sure as hell wouldn't be for EP40 with that shit contract tho- That is a surefire way Yzerman will successfully ruin the rebuild.

Yeah well if I'd be cool with Zadina too if he did that...

I could say something wild too like that second bolded comment; like it'd be the move that catapults Yzerman's rebuild/the team into a Stanley cup. Doesn't mean it's right, and like you now, until a deal is made, I'll never be able to be proven wrong.

and then you need to recall that for Bollands and Keslers to perform the way they did you need to shelter them with real superstars like Sedins, Hossa, Kane, Towes, Keith, etc

This is more my point than not... If Kasper/Danielson really aren't going to be fringe 1st line centers, go get one, wings have Kasper/Danielson/Lombardi all fighting essentially for the same role, Middle line center;2nd/3rd lines. (imo). Personally, it's EP or no one right now because I'm pretty confident that all three players can be similar produces to Dylan Cozens. All three would be lucky to get 70-80 points consistently, again(imo).

 

[RedHawkDown]

Both were thorny in their prime. If all of one of Kasper or Danielsson does is score 50points and score the Stanley cup game winning goal, then I would say that isn't so bad. But you want to trade that knowing their fate. I'd rather the cup knowing that is the fate. Otherwise, what is the point of NHL hockey?

But yeah, sure. I'd trade Kasper for a 1st line center not knowing that future. Sure as hell wouldn't be for EP40 with that shit contract tho- That is a surefire way Yzerman will successfully ruin the rebuild.

Larkin is a 70-80 pt player, and Raymond is a 90pt one. DBC, if he's extended further, is a 65-70pt player. Once Kane is gone, if the next best offensive players on our team are 2 50 pt centres, we aren't winning anything. Dave Bolland only shined in his role because he was sheltered by Kane and Toews being actual stars.

We need Kasper to be a Kesler (50-60pt with 70 pt seasons in his prime), and we need Danielson to be a poor man's Bergeron. Otherwise we should trade them to try and get someone like Pettersson.

 

[Winger98]

Toews wasn't on Kane's level. Credit to Toews for upping his game in the playoffs, but I think he was always a clear tier below guys like Kane, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, etc. For a guy who was a 1CV on three Cup teams, there are a quite a few centers I think I take over him in that 05-15 era.

actually, just double checked and didn't realize Toews started his run in 08. He's still not too high on my list.

I think if Ksaper somehow manages to be 50 point 2C and Danielson is a PPG selke-ish 1c...we are rolling. We will win a ton of games with that and then throwing Mo and Ed over the boards 45-50 minutes a night.

and then you need to recall that for Bollands and Keslers to perform the way they did you need to shelter them with real superstars like Sedins, Hossa, Kane, Towes, Keith, etc

I don't think Kesler had to be sheltered. I think he ate a lot of tough matchups in Vancouver that helped free the sedins up from always having to take harder matchups themselves.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Toews wasn't on Kane's level. Credit to Toews for upping his game in the playoffs, but I think he was always a clear tier below guys like Kane, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Bergeron, etc. For a guy who was a 1CV on three Cup teams, there are a quite a few centers I think I take over him in that 05-15 era.

actually, just double checked and didn't realize Toews started his run in 08. He's still not too high on my list.

I think if Ksaper somehow manages to be 50 point 2C and Danielson is a PPG selke-ish 1c...we are rolling. We will win a ton of games with that and then throwing Mo and Ed over the boards 45-50 minutes a night.



I don't think Kesler had to be sheltered. I think he ate a lot of tough matchups in Vancouver that helped free the sedins up from always having to take harder matchups themselves.

Absolutely, I agree. if Danielson is a PPG selke-ish 1C, then we've knocked it out of the park with him - that's essentially Bergeron-lite, as I said. But if they BOTH end up as 40-50pt 3Cs, then it's an issue.

 

[Winger98]

Absolutely, I agree. if Danielson is a PPG selke-ish 1C, then we've knocked it out of the park with him - that's essentially Bergeron-lite, as I said. But if they BOTH end up as 40-50pt 3Cs, then it's an issue.

we'll just sign McDavid in two summers

 

[Dotter]

Larkin is a 70-80 pt player, and Raymond is a 90pt one. DBC, if he's extended further, is a 65-70pt player. Once Kane is gone, if the next best offensive players on our team are 2 50 pt centres, we aren't winning anything. Dave Bolland only shined in his role because he was sheltered by Kane and Toews being actual stars.

We need Kasper to be a Kesler (50-60pt with 70 pt seasons in his prime), and we need Danielson to be a poor man's Bergeron. Otherwise we should trade them to try and get someone like Pettersson.

Wings hopes and dreams don't fall exclusively on Kasper and Danielsson. Neither are going to be Bergeron level. At best one might become a poor man Kesler... or a Zetterberg light (40-50pt version). I think people forget how important Kesler was because he was so injury prone. He gave it his all each and every night and players hated to be matched up against him. I remember he dominated FOs., career 54.4% FOW.

Yzerman needs to hit on a couple of his later picks like Buchelnikov, Plante, etc. He also needs to sign more Kane -types in the UFA markets and keep that flowing. Perhaps a UFA McDavid comes along or maybe even a UFA Taveras short term if he's still producing at a 60-70 point clip... but blowing your wad on EP40 and that contract out of sheer desperation is reckless and short sighted. Thankfully two things Yzerman is not.

 

[Frk It]

Larkin is a 70-80 pt player, and Raymond is a 90pt one. DBC, if he's extended further, is a 65-70pt player. Once Kane is gone, if the next best offensive players on our team are 2 50 pt centres, we aren't winning anything. Dave Bolland only shined in his role because he was sheltered by Kane and Toews being actual stars.

We need Kasper to be a Kesler (50-60pt with 70 pt seasons in his prime), and we need Danielson to be a poor man's Bergeron. Otherwise we should trade them to try and get someone like Pettersson.

I don’t know how old you think Larkin is, but he’s 28.

If Larkin can remain a ppg player for the next 5 years or so, Kasper and Danielson being 50 pt guys could be fine. Although I think one of them can exceed that totally arbitrary threshold.

I also don’t think MOST 2C’s in the league put up as many points as you think they do. Compher was Colorado’s 2C the year they won the President’s trophy. We have seen teams have a lot of success and/or win Cups with a “50 point 2C”.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I don’t know how old you think Larkin is, but he’s 28.

If Larkin can remain a ppg player for the next 5 years or so, Kasper and Danielson being 50 pt guys could be fine. Although I think one of them can exceed that totally arbitrary threshold.

I also don’t think MOST 2C’s in the league put up as many points as you think they do. Compher was Colorado’s 2C the year they won the President’s trophy. We have seen teams have a lot of success and/or win Cups with a “50 point 2C”.

Compher was Colorado's 2C, and MacKinnon was their 1C. Rantanen was their 1st line winger. Cale Makar was their 1D. I'm sure you can surmise how they didn't need Compher's offense at all in that situation.

I'm not even saying that I expect Danielson or kasper to become PPG players. I'm just saying, in order for a rebuild to be successful, some of the picks have to dramatically outperform expectations/their draft slots. Pro sports are a zero-sum game - in order for one team to improve, other teams have to get worse. So it's not enough to just have your 9th overall picks be average 9th overall picks, beacuse every other bad team also will likely have average 7th or 8th or 10th or 11th overall picks. In order for us to become contenders, some of those picks have to knock it out of the park.

Maybe that happens with Buchelnikov becoming Kaprizov or Kucherov 2.0, or ASP becoming Zubov 2.0. Or Danielson being a PPG Selke-level centre. Either way, we need a couple of these to happen to become contenders. That's just reality.

 

[Frk It]

Compher was Colorado's 2C, and MacKinnon was their 1C. Rantanen was their 1st line winger. Cale Makar was their 1D. I'm sure you can surmise how they didn't need Compher's offense at all in that situation.

I'm not even saying that I expect Danielson or kasper to become PPG players. I'm just saying, in order for a rebuild to be successful, some of the picks have to dramatically outperform expectations/their draft slots. Pro sports are a zero-sum game - in order for one team to improve, other teams have to get worse. So it's not enough to just have your 9th overall picks be average 9th overall picks, beacuse every other bad team also will likely have average 7th or 8th or 10th or 11th overall picks. In order for us to become contenders, some of those picks have to knock it out of the park.

Maybe that happens with Buchelnikov becoming Kaprizov or Kucherov 2.0, or ASP becoming Zubov 2.0. Or Danielson being a PPG Selke-level centre. Either way, we need a couple of these to happen to become contenders. That's just reality.

Yeah I guess I just think the fact that Seider and Raymond have already hit and Edvinsson is looking like a hit and Buchelnikov and ASP and Cossa are trending extremely well takes some of the pressure off of what Danielson and Kasper *need* to be.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Yeah I guess I just think the fact that Seider and Raymond have already hit and Edvinsson is looking like a hit and Buchelnikov and ASP and Cossa are trending extremely well takes some of the pressure off of what Danielson and Kasper *need* to be.

It takes the pressure off, for sure. But Seider and Raymond have already hit, and we still suck. Ed being a 1D also will help, but we obviously still have major holes in the lineup, and that's with Kane playing like a 1st line winger. So Kane's play will need to be replaced at the least, and DBC too if he is not re-signed / loses a step.

I'm just saying that I think people often forget that every other rebuilding team is also improving, not just us.

Montreal has Demidov coming who is trending extremely well, and Hutson who looks incredible so far as well. Michael Hage also looks great. Fowler also looks like a potential starter for them with similar stats to Augustine. This is on top of 1OA Slafkovsky on the roster and doing well, plus Suzuki who is essentially a younger Larkin and Caufield who is a younger DeBrincat.

CBJ have Johnson, Voronkov and Marchenko as young guys taking the next step; they've got Fantilli who's yet to break out but looks solid, and then guys like Lindstrom and Brindley with immense potential. Not to mention Del Bel Belluz who's looking very good in the NHL.

Flyers have Michkov who will be a superstar, and Luchanko coming up.

These are just a few random examples from the East alone. It's not enough for guys to trend well, some of them have to blow past expectations for us to leapfrog those other teams. That, or Yzerman has to make some robbery trades. I'm not saying it's fair to expect that out of our young guys, but rather that it's simply a reality of pro sports.

 

[Dotter]

It's not enough for guys to trend well, some of them have to blow past expectations for us to leapfrog those other teams. That, or Yzerman has to make some robbery trades. I'm not saying it's fair to expect that out of our young guys, but rather that it's simply a reality of pro sports.

I agree some have to exceed expectations but it doesn't have to be both Kasper and Danielsson. It can be ASP, Buch, Lombardi, Cossa/Augustine, etc.

I'm sure trades will happen when they present themselves and make sense. And as Wings prove to get better, the good UFA players who really want to win will come to Detroit. Right now we get the Comphers and Gustafssons of the world.

I mean when you have a top #1 and #2 punch on the back end with Seider and Edvinsson, and (hopefully) a vezina level goalie (Cossa/Augustine), good UFA players will want come and be part of that.That could be a brilliant foundation if everything goes right.

It's an ongoing process. But yes, any rebuild things need to go right. Looking at Seider, Raymond, Edvinsson all of them are proving to be some of the best in their respective draft class..... so clearly it's "so far, so good."

 

[Pavels Dog]

While I agree an EP trade probably ain’t worth it, Kasper and Danielson both turning into 50 pt 2way players means that the rebuild will re-start. Thats a JT Compher level contribution, and it doesn’t move the needle.

Compher is below 0.5PPG in his career and has hit 50 points exactly once.

Far more accurate to call him a 40 point player, but in raw totals he’s actually been a 30-ish point player.

If you actually look at some guys producing at a ~50 point rate the last ~5 years you’ll find guys like Cozens, Beniers, Danault, Cirelli, Norris, Zacha etc.

 

[Gniwder]

It takes the pressure off, for sure. But Seider and Raymond have already hit, and we still suck. Ed being a 1D also will help, but we obviously still have major holes in the lineup, and that's with Kane playing like a 1st line winger. So Kane's play will need to be replaced at the least, and DBC too if he is not re-signed / loses a step.

Yup, Buch has to be at least Kane level just to stay at the same level of competition. Kasper has to be at least as good as Copp, and Danielson at Compher level.

Larkin and DBC are going to decline, so that is where the team needs Lombardi, Finnie, Mazur and others to pitch in some goals more often than the current bottom 6 of Fish, Motte, Raz, Tank, and Joey.

On the defensive side, ASP needs to be better than Gus, which is a really low bar. Augustine and Cossa need to be better than Talbot and Lyon, which I think they can do.

All of this "tough to play against" talk, I think the team is gonna need scoring help in the future unless one of the forward picks wind up being a home run. I doubt Kasper will be the one.