Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[ShanahanMan]

liking and replying to your own sock account's post. absolutely masterful stuff

it's been a real pleasure watching you work this preseason

Lol the person I replied to is much more well spoken than me.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

Lol the person I replied to is much more well spoken than me.

oh, right! sure, sure

 

[stillwater]

I've read all the words you've posted lately. I understand that you're frustrated. I just can't relate to the frustration.

I apologize for not being frustrated.

Same, sorry, not frustrated.

 

[SantosHalper]

Why is this still a surprise? This is how they operate, last year it was Ed, this season it's Kasper, next year it will be Danielson and year after that ASP & MBN. But the bright side is that within 2 years all the current top prospects will be in the lineup. Injuries will happen through out the season, Kasper will not spent the whole year in GR.

 

[19 for president]

There a few issues with Kasper not making the team despite his pre-season performance.

1) Kasper, Danielson, and Mazur are all pretty close to NHL ready at this moment. MBN despite just being drafted is probably pretty close too based on him hanging out through the pre-season. I think the older 3 are ok with some AHL time this year, but I do think it starts to hinder them if forced back there next season. I don't see Wings management having 4 rookie forward spots next season (especially if we make the playoffs). So I think there is a high likelihood of one or two of the older guys forced into another AHL season.

2) Kasper was one of the best 13 forwards in the pre-season and if you want to tout guys earning their spots then you have to give it to them on occasion. If Vrana wasn't injured Ray probably doesn't make the team his rookie year. For a team that still isn't great, we should see more youth on the roster. I'm not saying rush guys, but if they earn a spot give them a chance to shine. Last time we did that he earned himself a Calder nomination. In Kasper's case he also adds an element that this team really lacks in his forechecking ability.

3) Asset Evaluation: Over valuing 3rd/4th line and bottom pair dman. I get wanting to have some depth but over signing bottom tier players and then being afraid to waive them because of "asset management" is silly. We are not a top tier team where maybe we have guys on the bottom pair/4th line that should really be playing up the lineup but aren't due to insane depth. We are talking about guys that at best are getting dealt for like a 5-7th round pick or futures. If by some crazy chance we lost someone on waivers, we could deal for a replacement. With that said though we have a very deep system in GR that should be able to provide some callup replacements if needed.

If the Wings were a cup contender I could understand really slow rolling guys. It was frustrating with guys like Nyquist but I got it. This team is a playoff bubble team, and the likelihood of us reaching that level is almost entirely dependent on our young guys carrying us there. (well and goaltending not being a hot mess). Kasper added an element we need on this team, he played better than others in that 3rd line role, and he has a much greater potential to improve beyond his current play than say a guy like Veleno.

 

[jkutswings]

I think it's fine to question decisions. But I think there's a misunderstanding about the real core topic:

Some fans have reached a point where the NHL roster making the playoffs is not only attainable, but should be treated as a high priority. Thus far, management has indicated that wherever that priority does rank, it's still lower than what they feel is best for the development of the prospects.

So the real debate isn't whether Kasper has shown enough to possibly make the big club. It's about whether the success of the big club between now and Time X is more important than any further boost Kasper might get from X more games in Grand Rapids.

I think there are points to be made for both sides, and it should be a fluid issue for a given prospect, depending on how much untapped potential management thinks they have and what they still need to work on. But it's very different to ask what's best for Marco versus the NHL roster instead of whether Marco is better than <insert depth player here>.

EDIT: I mean, for Kasper in particular, what if Yzerman has been penciling him in as a 3C/3W all along, but the kid playing so well recently made him wonder if a bit longer with top minutes in the AHL would help him unlock 2C status? Not saying I would completely agree with that hypothetical, but it's an argument I could understand.

 

[newfy]

Did Kasper force his way onto the roster? Not exactly IMO He left enough to be desired with his finishing and creativity that I can see him benefiting from some time in GR...

But at the same time, I'd argue most of our forwards forced their way OFF the roster. Here's to another year running a suboptimal roster because we're incapable of watching our vets play terribly and saying "wow, that guy's as bad as he's looked for years." I totally understand why there's some over the top frustration with this. You'd think missing the playoffs because we refused to play Edvinsson would have taught us something.

At the end of the day, Kasper was probably the wings best player in the preseason. Yeah guys like Larkin aren't going to go 100% the whole time but still. Whether some guys forced their way off, or he forced his way on... I think being arguably the best player on the team like that, after a really strong finish last year, he should be getting a shot.

His play absolutely earned a spot on the line up opening day, but if Yzerman needs a little time to reshuffle the deck because he wasn't expecting that, so be it. Go down to GR and play another big 5 or 6 games to start the year and force his hand even more

Not convinced it's purely a paper move, but Veleno was sent down a few years back and still ended up playing nearly 70 games. I don't love Kasper not being in day 1, but I also wouldn't love just dumping Veleno/Berggren for nothing like some are suggesting.

This is the boat I'm in. Kasper wasn't sooooo good last year that he should have been just handed a roster spot. But the way he finished and then how good his preseason was, he should be playing a lot of NHL games this year. I wouldn't just be dumping Veleno/Berggren either, but there's also enough forwards now to make some moves to upgrade the D a bit potentially while making room for the forwards in a logjam.

Right now Kasper would be the first call up I'm sure, but if there's more injuries? Mazur and Danielson are ready for some spot duty in the NHL anyways plus there's Watson as well.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Kasper didn’t have the type of year in the AHL last year where a good pre season should guarantee him a roster spot. Sorry…

And if he made the team but on the bottom line, people would just complain about that too.

Larkin, DeBrincat, Raymond, Kane, Tarasenko, Compher, Rasmussen, Copp. Kasper isn’t getting more minutes than any of those guys. So the decision was do you want him to be one of the 3-4 lowest minute forwards in Detroit or one of the 3-4 highest minute forwards in Grand Rapids.

They made the right call. Let him put together a dominant season in the AHL and get called up with some confidence later when needed.

You're making my point, though. Camp doesn't actually matter. If your last season wasn't good enough, it doesn't matter how hard you compete. No jobs are actually available for you to win. The whole "you've got to take someone's job" thing is completely untrue. It's like there's an asterisk and fine print that says *as long as it's convenient for the team.

And I thought Kasper outplayed pretty much everyone. I would have him on the 3rd line.

 

[Frk It]

You're making my point, though. Camp doesn't actually matter. If your last season wasn't good enough, it doesn't matter how hard you compete. No jobs are actually available for you to win. The whole "you've got to take someone's job" thing is completely untrue. It's like there's an asterisk and fine print that says *as long as it's convenient for the team.

And I thought Kasper outplayed pretty much everyone. I would have him on the 3rd line.

Ok, guess we should go back to being a shit team so more rookies can crack the lineup.

Or get rid of the old kids (Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno) to make room for the new kids.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Ok, guess we should go back to being a shit team so more rookies can crack the lineup.

Or get rid of the old kids (Rasmussen, Berggren, Veleno) to make room for the new kids.

I guess it depends on what kind of team you think they are right now. I'm expecting a shit team anyway. That D core is awful.

I wouldn't mind that 2nd idea. Rasmussen is not adding anything.

 

[Frk It]

I guess it depends on what kind of team you think they are right now. I'm expecting a shit team anyway. That D core is awful.

I wouldn't mind that 2nd idea. Rasmussen is not adding anything.

Yeah I don’t know. I kind of like the look of the top 6 we have going.

In a perfect world you’d move someone out on that 3rd line. And then Kasper gets a spot there. But they aren’t going to move one of the guys we would want to make that happen.

As I’ve said, I’d prefer him to play big minutes in GR. I understand your point that the preseason should be more of a meritocracy. Unfortunately outside the shit teams of the league, just not sure that’s actually what usually happens.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Guys like Johansson shouldn’t only be on the team because they are waiver exempt, that’s not how you integrate young players to help you win. Not in todays NHL. Too much youth can be a problem but equally not enough is as well. The only rookie to make our roster the past 2 seasons? Johansson, and that was because we literally had to.

The realistic path to Kasper being in the lineup right now is to bump Berggren to the pressbox though. Personally I kind of view Berggren in that "youth" category and think he deserves a chance.

1) Kasper, Danielson, and Mazur are all pretty close to NHL ready at this moment. MBN despite just being drafted is probably pretty close too based on him hanging out through the pre-season. I think the older 3 are ok with some AHL time this year, but I do think it starts to hinder them if forced back there next season. I don't see Wings management having 4 rookie forward spots next season (especially if we make the playoffs). So I think there is a high likelihood of one or two of the older guys forced into another AHL season.

I think everyone agrees that these guys need to start getting games. It's absolutely a problem if we're sitting here in December/January and none of Kasper/Danielson/Mazur are getting NHL games.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

We did this same song and dance last year with edvinsson and by the time we added him it was too late. I don’t know why you all are preaching patience when we have precedent for these sorts of things. The reality is there’s a logjam, and because yzerman handed out some bad contracts those players are untradeable, which means the prospects are the ones who suffer, because they are waiver exempt and cost less. The whole reason guys like kasper aren’t on the team are because of bums like copp. It’s something I predicted would happen the past few years and it’s playing out exactly how I expected it to. You just can’t add that many middling to bad free agents in free agency and expect to have a youth movement simultaneously. The writing was on the wall.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

I don't view this and the Edvinsson situation as the same. I have a lot of time for people being pissed about Edvinsson not getting more NHL games last year. I don't think think this is a similar situation here with Kasper.

Fact is our top 6 and 2/3 of our 3rd line is set. Berggren pretty much has to be on the team due to waivers. There just always was going to be a limited opportunity for Kasper. Even despite the additions of Motte and Watson. And I don't feel like the Front Office probably views that as conflicting, because they probably don't want Kasper playing the very minimal roles/minutes those two will play.

I think people need to ask themselves for Kasper's long term development... would you rather have him playing 9-12 minutes in Detroit or 18-20 minutes in GR? To me, that's a no-brainer. And when I look at it that way, it's hard for me to get mad at this.


This.

Ed did get a couple of games late in December and was probably given some homework to clean up on, which he did for the second call up…

 

[Austrianwing]

14 years here and you’ve apparently learned nothing!

There is no breathing! There is only inhaling and screaming! Sheesh...

 

[Pavels Dog]

We did this same song and dance last year with edvinsson and by the time we added him it was too late.

I would fundamentally disagree with that notion. I think there's a real danger of overrating Edvinsson here, he's probably going to have plenty of ups and downs this season and that's despite being far more prepared and refined than he was a year ago.

because of bums like copp

Copp was good in preseason though. Are we suddenly not caring about that when it's a veteran who does it? I think Veleno, Motte, Berggren are at least 3 guys I'd dump/pressbox before Copp, contract be damned.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

I would fundamentally disagree with that notion. I think there's a real danger of overrating Edvinsson here, he's probably going to have plenty of ups and downs this season and that's despite being far more prepared and refined than he was a year ago.


Copp was good in preseason though. Are we suddenly not caring about that when it's a veteran who does it? I think Veleno, Motte, Berggren are at least 3 guys I'd dump/pressbox before Copp, contract be damned.

I’m not overrating edvinsson, our D corps is just that bad.

 

[Mr Nimbus]

We did this same song and dance last year with edvinsson and by the time we added him it was too late. I don’t know why you all are preaching patience when we have precedent for these sorts of things. The reality is there’s a logjam, and because yzerman handed out some bad contracts those players are untradeable, which means the prospects are the ones who suffer, because they are waiver exempt and cost less. The whole reason guys like kasper aren’t on the team are because of bums like copp. It’s something I predicted would happen the past few years and it’s playing out exactly how I expected it to. You just can’t add that many middling to bad free agents in free agency and expect to have a youth movement simultaneously. The writing was on the wall.

His roster moves are really horrible at times. I can't stand the idea of our defense right now. It's going to cost several wins. Especially with our 3 no.3 goalies. The more I think about this roster (Especially how we got to this point), the more frustrated I get.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

I thought he had a pretty strong preseason and wouldn’t have minded just ripping off the bandaid and waiving Berggren to work Kasper into the line-up.

At the same time, I’m just not going to get worked up over opening night lineups. The first round picks are going to get opportunities on the roster.

Edit: I will say I’m just not wild about scratching two defensemen and one goalie. Wonky roster balance, I still don’t know exactly where Yzerman’s head is at with the blueline, but at the same time I guess some of those guys will pick up injuries pretty quickly and even things out.

 

[jkutswings]

We did this same song and dance last year with edvinsson and by the time we added him it was too late.

Too late for what? Be specific, because this is what everything hinges on.

If you're saying that Edvinsson arrived in Detroit too late in the regular season to help the Wings make the playoffs, here's my answer:

Yes. But the front office would rather miss the playoffs and be extra patient with the prospects than take even a minor risk in Edvinsson's recovery and development.

I'm not saying I'm in lock step with their line of thinking. But the concept of a logjam is completely backwards from how Detroit is acting. They care more about the development of the kids than the success of the big club, so they're getting whatever bandaids they need - for as many years as needed - until the assets they truly value are ready (enough) that the kids can carry the team.

It's not blocking kids at all. It's the belief - right or wrong - that (for now, at least) they can get more development out of the remainder of the future core in other leagues than in the NHL...and to them that's more important than however the big club does in the standings.

It sucks for fans that want more success for the NHL roster. But the long game appears to still be underway.

 

[Coach Reggie Dunlop]

Too late for what? Be specific, because this is what everything hinges on.

If you're saying that Edvinsson arrived in Detroit too late in the regular season to help the Wings make the playoffs, here's my answer:

Yes. But the front office would rather miss the playoffs and be extra patient with the prospects than take even a minor risk in Edvinsson's recovery and development.

I'm not saying I'm in lock step with their line of thinking. But the concept of a logjam is completely backwards from how Detroit is acting. They care more about the development of the kids than the success of the big club, so they're getting whatever bandaids they need - for as many years as needed - until the assets they truly value are ready (enough) that the kids can carry the team.

It's not blocking kids at all. It's the belief - right or wrong - that (for now, at least) they can get more development out of the remainder of the future core in other leagues than in the NHL...and to them that's more important than however the big club does in the standings.

I don’t see it that way at all, but the point is moot at this point and I’m just retreading what I’ve said a bunch already.

 

[ShanahanMan]

For anyone still holding onto any “paper move” hope, Lalonde confirmed today Kasper will start in GR

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

For anyone still holding onto any “paper move” hope, Lalonde confirmed today Kasper will start in GR

ever notice how you never see @ShanahanMan and @Coach Reggie Dunlop at the same time? anyone else think that's strange?

 

[SirKillalot]

there was absolutely no reason Edvinsson shouldn't have played a full NHL season. There is no reason a team at the stage the Red Wings were at last year, did not have a single rookie on their full time roster. The team would be in a much better spot today if Edvinsson had a full NHL season under his belt.

As others have mentioned, there was no way Edvinsson would start on the NHL roster last season, he wasn't ready physically or ready skills wise just yet.

Don't try to use logic here, it doesn't work.

The best part is that preseason doesn't matter when the team loses due to lack of effort, but it matters when Kasper out hustles the opponents who were also showing a lack of effort.

Speaking of which, the NHL really needs to fix the preseason schedule. Just make it 5 games with a day rest between each game. Make the roster size smaller so that we're not watching AHL scrimmages.

Well its up to the NHL team to have smaller roster if they want though.
But, yeah idk, think its good to have 6-7 matches to prepare for the new season as not playing full roster in all of them. Agree that it could be smaller rosters, but also some benefit of having more being given chances in training camp and getting a feel for how it is to be on the big team.