Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

God forbid anybody actually watch the Grand Rapids Griffins play. Let's judge based on PPG alone...

Ok. What does your eye test reveal about Kasper’s game that indicates he’s the most NHL-ready of our prospects and/or better than our current roster players, and what’s your explanation for why those qualities didn’t lead to point production comparable to someone like Mazur?

Because we are a rebuilding team, which should be when younger players who are near ready get a chance without injury being the reason. Playing in the NHL is also a great way to learn how to get better.

The goal here isn’t to make kids’ NHL dreams come true, it’s to prioritize their development. I agree with you that Kasper is “near ready”. That’s why, barring a Raymond-esque camp, I’d have him in the AHL.

Playing in the NHL can be a path to improve in some aspects. If the goal is to develop Kasper into an all-situations center, why are we chucking him into a bottom six wing role where he won’t get the same minutes and opportunities that he would as a key center in Grand Rapids?

To me, there’s one roster spot that four players are competing for, and that’s likely a third line wing role for one of Berggren, Mazur, Danielson, or Kasper. Of those four players, based on the information we have today, Kasper wouldn’t be my choice for the role because I don’t think he’s the best of those players and also because I think he (and maybe Danielson) has the most to gain developmentally by playing an all-situations center role in Grand Rapids.

 

[Retire91]

I kind of hope he can develop at least into that luxury 3rd line center like Draper was all those years. Where he might not be in the top 6 due to scoring, but he does everything else amazing and makes it hard to play against us. But I am also thinking he becomes much more. If he and Danielson pan out man then finally we have our centers locked in for a while.

 

[Oddbob]

Ok. What does your eye test reveal about Kasper’s game that indicates he’s the most NHL-ready of our prospects and/or better than our current roster players, and what’s your explanation for why those qualities didn’t lead to point production comparable to someone like Mazur?



The goal here isn’t to make kids’ NHL dreams come true, it’s to prioritize their development. I agree with you that Kasper is “near ready”. That’s why, barring a Raymond-esque camp, I’d have him in the AHL.

Playing in the NHL can be a path to improve in some aspects. If the goal is to develop Kasper into an all-situations center, why are we chucking him into a bottom six wing role where he won’t get the same minutes and opportunities that he would as a key center in Grand Rapids?

To me, there’s one roster spot that four players are competing for, and that’s likely a third line wing role for one of Berggren, Mazur, Danielson, or Kasper. Of those four players, based on the information we have today, Kasper wouldn’t be my choice for the role because I don’t think he’s the best of those players and also because I think he (and maybe Danielson) has the most to gain developmentally by playing an all-situations center role in Grand Rapids.

The goal is to improve with youth though in rebuilding scenarios. Playing mid tier vets who at the absolute best are just a little better doesn't make sense when rebuilding. That is something teams trying to stay in the playoffs after years of competing do. I would much rather miss the playoffs by a little bit, with kids actually playing in the NHL and learning, then "maybe" making the playoffs with ok ish vets and not really being a threat. Kids can learn just as much seeing how they match up at NHL pace as they can by playing a lot in the AHL against lesser competition. Holding near ready kids down for more seasoning to me, never really makes much difference to the positive in those players.

There is no reason to keep 21+ age players down when rebuilding when they are actually quite close to being NHL ready as Ed, Berggren, Danielson and Kasper seem to be. Ties goes to vets for me should only be held up if the vet is actually the better player, when I think lots of times, the lower end NHL guys are probably worse and are only winning cause they are a vet and not because they are as good as the kid.

 

[Henkka]

There is no reason to keep 21+ age players down when rebuilding when they are actually quite close to being NHL ready as Ed, Berggren, Danielson and Kasper seem to be. Ties goes to vets for me should only be held up if the vet is actually the better player, when I think lots of times, the lower end NHL guys are probably worse and are only winning cause they are a vet and not because they are as good as the kid.

Berggren is the only 21+ aged player of that group.

So it's fine for you that Kasper and Danielson are down. Ed was already promoted and Berggren lost his roster spot mostly for Kane, who did improve our team a lot more.

 

[Indrid Cold]

I kind of hope he can develop at least into that luxury 3rd line center like Draper was all those years. Where he might not be in the top 6 due to scoring, but he does everything else amazing and makes it hard to play against us. But I am also thinking he becomes much more. If he and Danielson pan out man then finally we have our centers locked in for a while.

I share this hope. I think the 2-way player drafting is going to pay off in the end. The front end will be a little on the boring side, but the back end will pick up the excitement, especially if ASP is as good as he seems to be.

 

[ShanahanMan]

I kind of hope he can develop at least into that luxury 3rd line center like Draper was all those years. Where he might not be in the top 6 due to scoring, but he does everything else amazing and makes it hard to play against us. But I am also thinking he becomes much more. If he and Danielson pan out man then finally we have our centers locked in for a while.

People will be good that we drafted another Draper at 8OA? Really?

 

[SantosHalper]

People will be good that we drafted another Draper at 8OA? Really?

At 8 OA, i'd happy to get a future Selke winner who plays 1137 regular season & 220 playoff games in Detroit.

Looking back the classic '89 draft where was picked, he'd be at least 15 OA pick in re-draft.

Top-5 is pretty clear and i'd add Konstantinov there to make it top-6. But who would actually take the likes of Barnes, Sillinger, Audette, Drake, Green, Brisebois, Johnson or even Reichel before Draper? So after all Draper could be 8/9 OA in '89 re-draft.

 

[heyfolks]

At 8 OA, i'd happy to get a future Selke winner who plays 1137 regular season & 220 playoff games in Detroit.

Looking back the classic '89 draft where was picked, he'd be at least 15 OA pick in re-draft.
View attachment 896977
Top-5 is pretty clear and i'd add Konstantinov there to make it top-6. But who would actually take the likes of Barnes, Sillinger, Audette, Drake, Green, Brisebois, Johnson or even Reichel before Draper? So after all Draper could be 8/9 OA in '89 re-draft.

Sergei and Nick in the same draft is FIRE!

 

[Winger98]

Sergei and Nick in the same draft is FIRE!

should have had Bure, too

 

[ShanahanMan]

At 8 OA, i'd happy to get a future Selke winner who plays 1137 regular season & 220 playoff games in Detroit.

Looking back the classic '89 draft where was picked, he'd be at least 15 OA pick in re-draft.
View attachment 896977
Top-5 is pretty clear and i'd add Konstantinov there to make it top-6. But who would actually take the likes of Barnes, Sillinger, Audette, Drake, Green, Brisebois, Johnson or even Reichel before Draper? So after all Draper could be 8/9 OA in '89 re-draft.

Well then I guess I'm in the minority of expecting something more with a top 10 pick on a team desperate for high end talent than a Draper clone.

 

[jaster]

Well then I guess I'm in the minority of expecting something more with a top 10 pick on a team desperate for high end talent than a Draper clone.

"Top-10" is rather vague, given the drop-off after the first few picks in most drafts. 1/2/3 is a heckuva lot different than 8/9/10 on average. Would I take Draper's career resume with the former? Maybe not. With the latter? In a heartbeat. I'd shove Gary Bettman off the stage and scream it into the microphone before being restrained by security.

 

[SantosHalper]

Sergei and Nick in the same draft is FIRE!

And Vladdy + Sillinger, Boughner and Drake, "decent" haul.

should have had Bure, too

That almost happened but they weren't sure is Bure old enough, they should have just risked it. Vancouver stole 2 good pieces from us, first Bure and then Edler.

 

[Winger98]

"Top-10" is rather vague, given the drop-off after the first few picks in most drafts. 1/2/3 is a heckuva lot different than 8/9/10 on average. Would I take Draper's career resume with the former? Maybe not. With the latter? In a heartbeat. I'd shove Gary Bettman off the stage and scream it into the microphone before being restrained by security.

Also, Draper as our 4c for his career was a luxury. We get a guy with his skill set now and I would bet he is getting top9 minutes and is putting up a bit better numbers just because his deployment would be different.

 

[norrisnick]

And Vladdy + Sillinger, Boughner and Drake, "decent" haul.

That almost happened but they weren't sure is Bure old enough, they should have just risked it. Vancouver stole 2 good pieces from us, first Bure and then Edler.

Not quite accurate. They were explicitly told by the league that Bure was not eligible. Vancouver said "f*** it" and drafted him anyway. They then had their recent acquisition from that summer, one Igor Larionov, present a couple game sheets with Bure's name penciled in at the bottom and they won the arbitration and got to keep Bure.

 

[SirloinUB]

Can we just fast forward a few years to when the top handful of kids are head and shoulders better than the veteran bandaids?

In the words of Tom Petty: the waiting is the hardest part.

Love is a long long road

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Not quite accurate. They were explicitly told by the league that Bure was not eligible. Vancouver said "f*** it" and drafted him anyway. They then had their recent acquisition from that summer, one Igor Larionov, present a couple game sheets with Bure's name penciled in at the bottom and they won the arbitration and got to keep Bure.

You're right that it wasn't Bure's age that was at issue, it was the number of games he had played with the Senior team. He needed a minium number to be eligible to be drafted beyond I think the third round and the NHL told all teams Bure hadn't played enough games, therefore not on the list of Draft eligibles. The story as I heard it when working in Vancouver at the time was that scout Mike Penny had been at a game in Europe that he saw Bure play in, but that game was not included among those that the NHL had credited for him. There may have been another uncounted game that Igor vouched for, not sure. Anyway, the Canucks went ahead with the pick and produced game sheets that proved their case. I've seen plenty of game sheets that included names of guys that didn't play, but no one has ever AFAIK challenged the validity of those the Canucks came up with.

 

[SantosHalper]

Not quite accurate. They were explicitly told by the league that Bure was not eligible. Vancouver said "f*** it" and drafted him anyway. They then had their recent acquisition from that summer, one Igor Larionov, present a couple game sheets with Bure's name penciled in at the bottom and they won the arbitration and got to keep Bure.

You're right that it wasn't Bure's age that was at issue, it was the number of games he had played with the Senior team. He needed a minium number to be eligible to be drafted beyond I think the third round and the NHL told all teams Bure hadn't played enough games, therefore not on the list of Draft eligibles. The story as I heard it when working in Vancouver at the time was that scout Mike Penny had been at a game in Europe that he saw Bure play in, but that game was not included among those that the NHL had credited for him. There may have been another uncounted game that Igor vouched for, not sure. Anyway, the Canucks went ahead with the pick and produced game sheets that proved their case. I've seen plenty of game sheets that included names of guys that didn't play, but no one has ever AFAIK challenged the validity of those the Canucks came up with.

I remembered that they thought he was a year younger but that was probably someone else then, well anyways Wings should have just "F it" and go for it. Kozlov - Fedorov - Bure would have been nice.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

You're right that it wasn't Bure's age that was at issue, it was the number of games he had played with the Senior team. He needed a minium number to be eligible to be drafted beyond I think the third round and the NHL told all teams Bure hadn't played enough games, therefore not on the list of Draft eligibles. The story as I heard it when working in Vancouver at the time was that scout Mike Penny had been at a game in Europe that he saw Bure play in, but that game was not included among those that the NHL had credited for him. There may have been another uncounted game that Igor vouched for, not sure. Anyway, the Canucks went ahead with the pick and produced game sheets that proved their case. I've seen plenty of game sheets that included names of guys that didn't play, but no one has ever AFAIK challenged the validity of those the Canucks came up with.

The Wings turned in a card for him and were rejected by the league. They weren't told in advance based on that. Vancouver won the argument, but the way I have always heard that is we attempted to draft him and were rebuffed on the draft floor.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

The Wings turned in a card for him and were rejected by the league. They weren't told in advance based on that. Vancouver won the argument, but the way I have always heard that is we attempted to draft him and were rebuffed on the draft floor.

That's interesting. I hadn't heard the Wings actually turned in a card at the Draft and were rejected. Just going on memory, but there was a differentiation of rounds that players could be picked, ie Bure could have been drafted wiithout any problem in the first three rounds, but that he and other Euro players (or perhaps just Russian players?) had to have played a minimum number of Senior team games to be eligible. Whether clubs were told or not, Bure wasn't on the list of eligibles for post-third round selection. Again, just my memory of how it went down. Could be wrong and probably forgetting or unaware of other aspects.

There was at the time and I guess still is a smell about the whole thing. One thing I remember during the wait for a league decision was that Pat Quinn was ultra-sensitive to any suggestion their case wasn't on the up-and-up, that it wasn't exactly how the Canucks presented it: that their due diligence was responsible for finding the truth about Bure's eligibility. An angry Quinn was a pretty entertaining sight, somewhat intimidating. I thought at the time he was overly defensive about it, just an impression. Also, Igor was one of the smartest guys you'd ever want to meet. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he played some kind of behind-the-scenes role in making sure the "right" proof was found.

 

[Retire91]

People will be good that we drafted another Draper at 8OA? Really?

I think I didn't explain my reasoning well. I still see Kasper's floor as a second line center. What I mean by comparing him to Draper is that if Danielson can translate his offensive progress to the NHL then he likely can fit the 2nd line which pushes Kasper down and then we have an above average 3rd line center. Draper was a luxury player because he had a higher level of skill than his role required. He popped in 20 goals in the right circumstances but the wings never needed that, they were covered on goals so he could specialize. To me that is how you win cups is your top 6 matchups usuually wash out for the most part. And if you can outmatch their 3rd and 4th lines it can be a huge difference maker.

But for the record if someone 8th over all gets 1000 games, yeah I am good with that. With the exception of maybe the 2015 draft and 2011 you nearly always get 2-3 players in the top 10 that never make it to 300 games. That is a 20-30% chance you top 10 pick does not see a 4th season. So yeah if our 8th overall gets us a PK specialist with an endless motor and grit that adds that dimension we so badly need I'll take it.

 

[Astyanax]

At 8 OA, i'd happy to get a future Selke winner who plays 1137 regular season & 220 playoff games in Detroit.

Looking back the classic '89 draft where was picked, he'd be at least 15 OA pick in re-draft.
View attachment 896977
Top-5 is pretty clear and i'd add Konstantinov there to make it top-6. But who would actually take the likes of Barnes, Sillinger, Audette, Drake, Green, Brisebois, Johnson or even Reichel before Draper? So after all Draper could be 8/9 OA in '89 re-draft.

Hey, loved drapes and the whole of the grind line, but hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he would go higher than 62 in a redraft, but top 15. I just don't think so. That was a solid draft year, and fast defensive guys that can't score just aren't at the top of anyone's draft list. He is literally the alfa prototype of why so many posters here hate this sort of pick. We got him for a single dollar.

 

[Astyanax]

I think I didn't explain my reasoning well. I still see Kasper's floor as a second line center. What I mean by comparing him to Draper is that if Danielson can translate his offensive progress to the NHL then he likely can fit the 2nd line which pushes Kasper down and then we have an above average 3rd line center. Draper was a luxury player because he had a higher level of skill than his role required. He popped in 20 goals in the right circumstances but the wings never needed that, they were covered on goals so he could specialize. To me that is how you win cups is your top 6 matchups usuually wash out for the most part. And if you can outmatch their 3rd and 4th lines it can be a huge difference maker.

But for the record if someone 8th over all gets 1000 games, yeah I am good with that. With the exception of maybe the 2015 draft and 2011 you nearly always get 2-3 players in the top 10 that never make it to 300 games. That is a 20-30% chance you top 10 pick does not see a 4th season. So yeah if our 8th overall gets us a PK specialist with an endless motor and grit that adds that dimension we so badly need I'll take it.

Sorry, I may not have fully appreciated what you were laying down there, as well. But I'm still pretty admit that drapes doesn't go as high as you're suggesting. I mean he probably deserved to, but considering the times ( late 80s), no one was taking a max 20 goal guy at 15. Would he have had 4 cups had he not landed in detroit? And would bure have had more than zero maybe if he had,?

 

[SantosHalper]

Hey, loved drapes and the whole of the grind line, but hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he would go higher than 62 in a redraft, but top 15. I just don't think so. That was a solid draft year, and fast defensive guys that can't score just aren't at the top of anyone's draft list. He is literally the alfa prototype of why so many posters here hate this sort of pick. We got him for a single dollar.

15th most points and 6th most games in that draft class and a Selke-level defensive game, easily a top-10 pick in a re-draft. Which player(s) outside Lidström, Fedorov, Sundin, Bure, Guerin, Konstantinov and Holik made a bigger impact in NHL from that draft class? And Draper was a fast defensive guy who played most of his career during the dead puck era, and in Detroit behind the likes of Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov and later Datsyuk & Zetterberg. In some shittier team Draper would got bigger role and would have scored more. And we got him for dollar because Winnipeg was runned by idiots.

 

[Astyanax]

15th most points and 6th most games in that draft class and a Selke-level defensive game, easily a top-10 pick in a re-draft. Which player(s) outside Lidström, Fedorov, Sundin, Bure, Guerin, Konstantinov and Holik made a bigger impact in NHL from that draft class? And Draper was a fast defensive guy who played most of his career during the dead puck era, and in Detroit behind the likes of Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov and later Datsyuk & Zetterberg. In some shittier team Draper would got bigger role and would have scored more. And we got him for dollar because Winnipeg was runned by idiots.

I love drapes, really I do. But never in the first!!!
I am actually shocked that his numbers test so well. (I am truly shocked!@ I had remembered it was a great draft, but apparently just for detroitll!. (surprised how bad the rest was, and we should have had bure too!!!!, shi******t ) And again, on any other team not as many points scored. After three years we got him for a dollar. And then he played on the highest scoring team for 17 years. So yes, even if I'm the GM and I will get fired even in hindsight, I'm still not taking Draper in the first, at least not at 15? On a side note, we did trade both our 1st and 2nd from that draft; so what do you think the return will be for that selke ready 15th overall Draper??

 

[SantosHalper]

I love drapes, really I do. But never in the first!!!
I am actually shocked that his numbers test so well. (I am truly shocked!@ I had remembered it was a great draft, but apparently just for detroitll!. (surprised how bad the rest was, and we should have had bure too!!!!, shi******t ) And again, on any other team not as many points scored. After three years we got him for a dollar. And then he played on the highest scoring team for 17 years. So yes, even if I'm the GM and I will get fired even in hindsight, I'm still not taking Draper in the first, at least not at 15? On a side note, we did trade both our 1st and 2nd from that draft; so what do you think the return will be for that selke ready 15th overall Draper??

And 3 years after the Draper-trade, Winnipeg folded and got relocaded to Phoenix, Arizona. That speaks loudly how badly that franchise was runned.

You saw how the rest of the draft shaped out and you are still telling me that you wouldn't take Draper in top-15 or even in the 1st round in '89 re-draft, even when you see the results of every single pick in that draft? You are either trolling or you don't understand the re-draft consept.

But answer to your question, i wouldn't trade Selke candidate centers without a massive overpayment.