Prospect Info: 2022 8OA, Marco Kasper

[Hen Kolland]

I would say that Kasper has more compete and intensity in his pinky finger than Veleno has in his entire body. If the kid needs more time before coming up, ok. But the two players are very very different.

Not really, not in the sense of what their final product would end up being if Kasper doesn't develop more of a consistent offensive touch. I think you are probably slightly underselling Veleno and slightly overselling Kasper to make the gap seem larger than it really is on compete, but either way, if Kasper's offense doesn't develop, you are talking about a guy who can join the ranks of Rasmussen and Veleno. I don't dislike either of those guys, nor do I dislike Kasper, but I also don't (or won't) view them as a key cog to the bigger machine that we are trying to build.

Surely everyone was hoping for more than a bottom 6, maybe matchup, maybe PK guy when Kasper came in, and I think that he can still be more than that. I just don't want to rush him through gaining comfort and confidence as an offensive creator.

 

[jkutswings]

Not really, not in the sense of what their final product would end up being if Kasper doesn't develop more of a consistent offensive touch. I think you are probably slightly underselling Veleno and slightly overselling Kasper to make the gap seem larger than it really is on compete, but either way, if Kasper's offense doesn't develop, you are talking about a guy who can join the ranks of Rasmussen and Veleno. I don't dislike either of those guys, nor do I dislike Kasper, but I also don't (or won't) view them as a key cog to the bigger machine that we are trying to build.

Surely everyone was hoping for more than a bottom 6, maybe matchup, maybe PK guy when Kasper came in, and I think that he can still be more than that. I just don't want to rush him through gaining comfort and confidence as an offensive creator.

I guess we agree to disagree then. I see Kasper as still on track to be a middle six NHL winger, and if he needs another year in GR first that's fine. I see Veleno as a fourth liner who isn't particularly good at anything.

I've seen no instances of Kasper being a player "where offense goes to die", but I see that regularly from Veleno.

 

[19 for president]

Not really, not in the sense of what their final product would end up being if Kasper doesn't develop more of a consistent offensive touch. I think you are probably slightly underselling Veleno and slightly overselling Kasper to make the gap seem larger than it really is on compete, but either way, if Kasper's offense doesn't develop, you are talking about a guy who can join the ranks of Rasmussen and Veleno. I don't dislike either of those guys, nor do I dislike Kasper, but I also don't (or won't) view them as a key cog to the bigger machine that we are trying to build.

Surely everyone was hoping for more than a bottom 6, maybe matchup, maybe PK guy when Kasper came in, and I think that he can still be more than that. I just don't want to rush him through gaining comfort and confidence as an offensive creator.

If Kasper becomes a feister Veleno I will be disappointed, but he does play a much more engaged game than Veleno. 3/4 of the time you forget Veleno is on the team. He has a good 10 game stretch and then does nothing offensively, defensively, physically or from an agitating standpoint.

I am pro giving Kasper another AHL season to develop his offensive game if he doesn't kill it in camp/pre-season. Coming in last season off the injury really set him back for that 1st half of the season.

I just want the younger guys to have a legit shot and not have the tie go to the vet automatically. We need to transition to the tie goes to the guy that has the most chance to improve with the ice time. The only time it should go to the vet is if its a bench spot.

The way I see it we have 4 guys really competing for a spot with Soder, Mazur, Danielson, and Kasper should all have a legit chance at a spot if they earn it.

 

[Hen Kolland]

If Kasper becomes a feister Veleno I will be disappointed, but he does play a much more engaged game than Veleno. 3/4 of the time you forget Veleno is on the team. He has a good 10 game stretch and then does nothing offensively, defensively, physically or from an agitating standpoint.

I am pro giving Kasper another AHL season to develop his offensive game if he doesn't kill it in camp/pre-season. Coming in last season off the injury really set him back for that 1st half of the season.

I just want the younger guys to have a legit shot and not have the tie go to the vet automatically. We need to transition to the tie goes to the guy that has the most chance to improve with the ice time. The only time it should go to the vet is if its a bench spot.

The way I see it we have 4 guys really competing for a spot with Soder, Mazur, Danielson, and Kasper should all have a legit chance at a spot if they earn it.

To be fair, I thought it was possible Veleno would be unqualified to open up a roster spot.

If you wanted to say 4 forwards, I would say Danielson, Mazur, Kasper and MBN. Unlike you and some others, I don't think that Soderblom has a future in the NHL. I think he will be back in the SHL in the not-so-distant future.

 

[Hen Kolland]

I guess we agree to disagree then. I see Kasper as still on track to be a middle six NHL winger, and if he needs another year in GR first that's fine. I see Veleno as a fourth liner who isn't particularly good at anything.

I've seen no instances of Kasper being a player "where offense goes to die", but I see that regularly from Veleno.

I mean, what historical context do we have that Kapser is leaps and bounds ahead of Veleno in terms of offensive potential? We've seen Veleno score well above a point per game in the Q. Veleno scored at a higher rate in the SHL as a North American transplant during Covid than Kasper did, but Veleno was also 2 years older at the time. Comparing directly relative to draft seasons: Veleno in his D+2 season scored 23 points in 54 games (0.42) in the AHL, his first year of professional hockey whereas Kasper in his D+2 season just scored 35 points in 71 games (0.49) in the AHL, but he had experience in the SHL in the two years prior. Not the easiest of comparisons, but there's not a lot to say there is a huge gap.

The only reason you would argue in favor of Kasper being a clearly higher offensive ceiling player than Veleno is because we have seen Veleno become a bottom 6 center that has not scored in the NHL that resembles previous levels. It's not because Kasper has actually done anything worthy of being treated as an offensive threat beyond what Veleno did as a prospect. We are really just talking about hope in the unknown.

Which is kind of the point, we shouldn't expect that Kasper will just be better than Veleno based on hope. We don't want to take away his ability to be in situations that inherently promote the use and development of his offensive game. GR makes a lot of sense to let him work a powerplay and have plenty of chances to create so that when he does make the roster, he has multiple layers to his game that he is comfortable using that help him fit in different roles.

That said, we aren't using permanent marker to write his name in GR. Hopefully he comes in and shows that he is plenty ready to move up and take on the challenge and he does so successfully.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

Veleno in his D+2 in Grand Rapids scored at a .42 ppg pace, then played another year of developmental hockey in Malmo during COVID. Kasper in his D+2 in Grand Rapids scored at a .49 ppg pace.

Don’t know how you could realistically project the kid into a serious role with the Wings this year barring a pretty electric preseason.

I mean, what historical context do we have that Kapser is leaps and bounds ahead of Veleno in terms of offensive potential? We've seen Veleno score well above a point per game in the Q. Veleno scored at a higher rate in the SHL as a North American transplant during Covid than Kasper did, but Veleno was also 2 years older at the time. Comparing directly relative to draft seasons: Veleno in his D+2 season scored 23 points in 54 games (0.42) in the AHL, his first year of professional hockey whereas Kasper in his D+2 season just scored 35 points in 71 games (0.49) in the AHL, but he had experience in the SHL in the two years prior. Not the easiest of comparisons, but there's not a lot to say there is a huge gap.

The only reason you would argue in favor of Kasper being a clearly higher offensive ceiling player than Veleno is because we have seen Veleno become a bottom 6 center that has not scored in the NHL that resembles previous levels. It's not because Kasper has actually done anything worthy of being treated as an offensive threat beyond what Veleno did as a prospect. We are really just talking about hope in the unknown.

Which is kind of the point, we shouldn't expect that Kasper will just be better than Veleno based on hope. We don't want to take away his ability to be in situations that inherently promote the use and development of his offensive game. GR makes a lot of sense to let him work a powerplay and have plenty of chances to create so that when he does make the roster, he has multiple layers to his game that he is comfortable using that help him fit in different roles.

That said, we aren't using permanent marker to write his name in GR. Hopefully he comes in and shows that he is plenty ready to move up and take on the challenge and he does so successfully.

Welp, ya beat me to it.

 

[Frk It]

I'm willing to listen to the argument that another year in Grand Rapids could benefit Kasper. But that's completely separate from then deciding to fill out the bottom half of an NHL lineup with crappy players.

If the kids still need to ripen a bit, fine. But find some players that don't suck in the meantime. Veleno is a 13th forward and neither Motte nor Fischer should even be on a hallway decent NHL team.

It depends how they choose to configure the lines, but I think our bottom 6 could actually be pretty good. I also think Fischer is a good 4th liner and much better off playing that role than one of our prospects would be.

 

[Oddbob]

Motte was on the Rangers and the Lightning over the last couple years. Playing games for them in the playoffs

How could you possibly know this?

How could you possibly know the reverse? The really good players for the most part make it pretty quickly out of the AHL. The ones that stay usually are lesser known players, that are still good, but nothing special, like a Tatar or a Nyquist or a Hudler, etc,. Kasper doesn't sound like a player that will be a 70+ pt guy with grit, but more a 40-50 pt guy with grit/2 way play. His style seems most likely to fit in the NHL already.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

The talk of needing to "dominate" a lower league to earn promotion almost always boils down to a player not scoring enough points according to some arbitrary standard. It's basically just an evaluation crutch. In Kasper's case, over the last two-thirds of the regular season and the playoffs he was a dominant player for the Griffins and one of their most consistent.

He needs very little in the way of further development typical of prospects his age. He's already physically sturdy and durable. He plays with a ton of confidence physically and as the season wore on more confidence in his skill, his point production and shots per game going up. He's diligent defensively, a responsible two-way player. He's certainly not intimidated by anything or shy about asserting himself.

Then there's this idea that scoring 60 points in the AHL getting 20 minutes a game would do him more good developmentally than scoring 25 points getting 13-15 minutes in the NHL. Where's the proof of that? It's just a theory and a pretty simplistic one at that. Plenty of prospects have gone on to NHL success after seasons no better than Kasper just had, especially over his last 50 games, and plenty more started their NHL careers as third-liners putting up modest point totals in support roles. Kasper's style of play suggests he's likely to become more productive as he ages, not breaking out until his mid-20s like Kesler or JT Miller. Calgary got tired of waiting for Bennett to establish himself and traded him just as he was about to.

Wings need to give Kasper a full shot at making the team this year, with an open mind to him likely gaining confidence the more he plays and in the meantime bringing much needed speed and physicality to the lineup even if he's not ready right now to put up 40-50 points. They'll be a better team for it and Kasper and the Wings will benefit more the following year with Kasper further ahead at that time from already playing a significant number of NHL games.

 

[izlez]

How could you possibly know the reverse? The really good players for the most part make it pretty quickly out of the AHL. The ones that stay usually are lesser known players, that are still good, but nothing special, like a Tatar or a Nyquist or a Hudler, etc,. Kasper doesn't sound like a player that will be a 70+ pt guy with grit, but more a 40-50 pt guy with grit/2 way play. His style seems most likely to fit in the NHL already.

I don't know the reverse.

 

[Ed Ned and Leddy]

The talk of needing to "dominate" a lower league to earn promotion almost always boils down to a player not scoring enough points according to some arbitrary standard. It's basically just an evaluation crutch. In Kasper's case, over the last two-thirds of the regular season and the playoffs he was a dominant player for the Griffins and one of their most consistent.

He needs very little in the way of further development typical of prospects his age. He's already physically sturdy and durable. He plays with a ton of confidence physically and as the season wore on more confidence in his skill, his point production and shots per game going up. He's diligent defensively, a responsible two-way player. He's certainly not intimidated by anything or shy about asserting himself.

Then there's this idea that scoring 60 points in the AHL getting 20 minutes a game would do him more good developmentally than scoring 25 points getting 13-15 minutes in the NHL. Where's the proof of that? It's just a theory and a pretty simplistic one at that. Plenty of prospects have gone on to NHL success after seasons no better than Kasper just had, especially over his last 50 games, and plenty more started their NHL careers as third-liners putting up modest point totals in support roles. Kasper's style of play suggests he's likely to become more productive as he ages, not breaking out until his mid-20s like Kesler or JT Miller. Calgary got tired of waiting for Bennett to establish himself and traded him just as he was about to.

Wings need to give Kasper a full shot at making the team this year, with an open mind to him likely gaining confidence the more he plays and in the meantime bringing much needed speed and physicality to the lineup even if he's not ready right now to put up 40-50 points. They'll be a better team for it and Kasper and the Wings will benefit more the following year with Kasper further ahead at that time from already playing a significant number of NHL games.

I don’t know why that proposition would be controversial. Playing more minutes is an important physical test for prospects. More importantly, you’re getting opportunities to play in special teams roles and a larger variety of five on five situations than you would at a higher level.

A large part of development is getting reps in, especially when you’re as young as a D+3 player. If the hope is to develop Kasper into a top six player, he’s better off at this age playing that role in the AHL. At a certain point you age out and have to sink or swim at the NHL level, but that’s not a D+3 problem.

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Kasper has that dog mentality by nature and is always in the mix of it because that's what he loves, and he is not short of confidence. Which is great if you're young and acclimating to a new league

His offensive game clearly began to grow after some AHL play following his injury layoff in the offseason, and he showed the best of it well into the playoffs. Not to mention his two-way play. I think if given a legit shot on the 3rd line, he might trend well for us. Might be a Sam Bennett offensive statline for a few years but a net positive 200 foot player who can muck it up along the boards

Players like him are pretty valuable. We kinda needed a Kasper last season to lead by example and just pest it up, especially during the losing streak

 

[lilidk]

I would have no problem with Kasper spending more time in GR, if it looks like he needs it.
Having said that, we need to start giving prospects NHL time eventually and it can’t all be in the top 6.

And both Kasper and Mazur could play in the bottom 6 in NHL. Sooner they practice together with Kane , Larkin, Raymond sooner they improve.

 

[Frk It]

I don't know, how well has extra seasons really done for any of the good NHL players that played time in the AHL? Nyquist, Tatar, Hudler and others were about the same regardless of 1 or 2 extra seasons, "ripening"! I honestly think extra time is only good for those who are long term projects, who have deficiencies or things that need fixing to their game, like ASP types who probably need time to get better defensively, or players still growing into their bodies.

Kasper in particular sounds like he might play a style that transitions to the NHL pretty well. Not against him being in GR this season, but if he is legit better than Veleno, Motte, etc, I think he should make the team, same for Danielson. We are supposed to be a rebuilding team, and we seem to do an awful lot to keep the youth from even getting a chance to play in the NHL. Not every rookie that comes in to play games needs to have a Seider level start to stay up. Much rather the kids are up and learning how to be effective in NHL games, then Motte and other fringe guys needing to be in our lineup on the minute chance they are slightly better defensively than kids. Especially since Steve has basically refrained from saying we "need" playoffs this season. Let the kids play that are ready or close and see how we fair.



I disagree on Fischer big time. He is the perfect 4th line forward, as he can PK, provides some grit and won't complain with low ice time.

Couple things:

1) Playing a lot of hockey is good for development. I'm usually going to lean towards the development route that allows the player to play more. It is why I am generally more open to players playing in the CHL in their +1 or +2 than most.

2) If a player is good enough to bypass the AHL altogether, that's one thing. We saw Kasper last year and he did not have the type of seasons where I say "he's done with the AHL". A good end to the year doesn't change that he was just under .5 PPG in the regular season.

3) We can look at what other teams have done with similar players and get a blueprint. Kasper had a nearly identical season to that of Connor Zary for his +2 year. I would follow a similar route as what Calgary did with him, he was pretty good for them last year.

 

[lilidk]

Couple things:

1) Playing a lot of hockey is good for development. I'm usually going to lean towards the development route that allows the player to play more. It is why I am generally more open to players playing in the CHL in their +1 or +2 than most.

2) If a player is good enough to bypass the AHL altogether, that's one thing. We saw Kasper last year and he did not have the type of seasons where I say "he's done with the AHL". A good end to the year doesn't change that he was just under .5 PPG in the regular season.

3) We can look at what other teams have done with similar players and get a blueprint. Kasper had a nearly identical season to that of Connor Zary for his +2 year. I would follow a similar route as what Calgary did with him, he was pretty good for them last year.

Danielson is almost point per game in whl . Is it means he needs to stay down and have a lot more playing time in WHL or try to play less in AHL. I think the answer is obvious

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Kasper might be a good candidate for a 50/50 type year. Establish himself down in GR, wait for the inevitable injury, and never go back down.

 

[ShanahanMan]

Danielson is almost point per game in whl . Is it means he needs to stay down and have a lot more playing time in WHL or try to play less in AHL. I think the answer is obvious

I mean, so was a guy we drafted in the 3rd round this year. A PPG in your last year of juniors is almost a minimum for those who want to make it to the NHL.

 

[lilidk]

I mean, so was a guy we drafted in the 3rd round this year. A PPG in your last year of juniors is almost a minimum for those who want to make it to the NHL.

I think those 2 will look great on same line in GR and I hope last year GR first line will be gone so Danielson, Lombardi, Becher have more opportunities

 

[SantosHalper]

People are so impatient, last season it was Ed and this season it's Kasper. It only took Ed 2 years to "graduate" and he was drafted 3 years ago and he's only 21 years old. Kasper was drafted 2 years ago and he's only 20 years old. Sometimes people talk like these prospects been buried in AHL for decades.

Extra development year in AHL or Europe has never hurt anyone but putting someone to play in NHL early has often hurt many. I don't think that anyone can claim that extra year in Sweden didn't help Seider to become more mature. Or Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen.

And after next season 21 year old Kasper will become NHL regular and it's going to look like he's been in the league for years.

 

[Hen Kolland]

Danielson is almost point per game in whl . Is it means he needs to stay down and have a lot more playing time in WHL or try to play less in AHL. I think the answer is obvious

That's the thing, Danielson has proven without a doubt that he is ready to move to the next level. There is not much left for him to prove or learn offensively or defensively that the junior level will teach him. He needs to turn pro to help push his development track. Kasper hasn't done at the AHL level (in relative terms) what Danielson just did at the WHL level. He can still learn a heck of a lot in the AHL.

The other piece of this is Danielson will play probably 16-18+ minutes per night immediately in Grand Rapids. Kasper likely plays 10-12 in the NHL, as opposed to 16-18 or more in the AHL. Situationally, it is pretty different.

 

[DamonDRW]

People are so impatient, last season it was Ed and this season it's Kasper. It only took Ed 2 years to "graduate" and he was drafted 3 years ago and he's only 21 years old. Kasper was drafted 2 years ago and he's only 20 years old. Sometimes people talk like these prospects been buried in AHL for decades.

Extra development year in AHL or Europe has never hurt anyone but putting someone to play in NHL early has often hurt many. I don't think that anyone can claim that extra year in Sweden didn't help Seider to become more mature. Or Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall, Franzen.

And after next season 21 year old Kasper will become NHL regular and is going to look like he's been in the league for years.

Ed came in and it was obvious he us head and shoulders better than anyone it named Seider. What was the reason to keep him in the ahl for so long? I believe the same stuff will happen to Danielsson, Kasper, and that magnificent Norwegian guy.

Out of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen only one spent some noticeable time in the NHL.

 

[lilidk]

That's the thing, Danielson has proven without a doubt that he is ready to move to the next level. There is not much left for him to prove or learn offensively or defensively that the junior level will teach him. He needs to turn pro to help push his development track. Kasper hasn't done at the AHL level (in relative terms) what Danielson just did at the WHL level. He can still learn a heck of a lot in the AHL.

The other piece of this is Danielson will play probably 16-18+ minutes per night immediately in Grand Rapids. Kasper likely plays 10-12 in the NHL, as opposed to 16-18 or more in the AHL. Situationally, it is pretty different.

If Mazur and Kasper still in GR I don't know how much playing time he will have , they're also other players that could be ahead of Danielson

 

[Pavels Dog]

Ed came in and it was obvious he us head and shoulders better than anyone it named Seider. What was the reason to keep him in the ahl for so long? I believe the same stuff will happen to Danielsson, Kasper, and that magnificent Norwegian guy.

Out of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen only one spent some noticeable time in the NHL.

Franzen was 26 in his rookie NHL season.

 

[DoMakc]

Franzen was 26 in his rookie NHL season.

He was also drafted at age of 24 before lockout season. Basically he made the team on the first attempt

 

[SantosHalper]

Ed came in and it was obvious he us head and shoulders better than anyone it named Seider. What was the reason to keep him in the ahl for so long? I believe the same stuff will happen to Danielsson, Kasper, and that magnificent Norwegian guy.

Out of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kronwall and Franzen only one spent some noticeable time in the NHL.

The Org didn't believe that wasn't ready enough to be a regular or they compared him to Seider, how he looked before SHL and after SHL. If there wasn't for the covid Seider would have played his D+2 year in NHL but would have he been then as impressive as he was, when he played his first NHL season, if there wasn't for the extra developmental year in SHL? Maybe, maybe not but im starting to think that has made, a some sort of line chance in development route.

If we take Söderblom and Berggren as an example, Söderblom looked good in the camp and made the team and continued to look good for the first 10-15 games. Then looked bad for the rest and was sent to GR. Berggren looked good in his AHL first season and had a good camp and made the team next season. Same thing happened to Berggren, looked good at the start, for a longer period than Söderblom and then he disappeared and for the final games looked totally gassed out. And he was sent back to GR, played another good AHL season and looked more ready in those 12 games this season than he did 2022-23 season. Now it seems Berggren is going to get much bigger role next season.

And you are correct, the same thing will happen to Kasper, Danielson, MBN, ASP, Mazur. When they say everyone has a chance to make the team in the camp, i believe what they really mean is that they have chance to earn the call up in the camp when there is a injury during the season. And when that call up happens, then that player has a real chance to prove that belongs in NHL. Ed earned the call up in the camp 2 years ago, played 9 games but didn't show enough and Yzerman goes shopping during the off-season. This season D stays healthy, Ed doesn't get a call up until near end of the season but covinces Yzerman and he gets rid off Walman during the off-season.

Kasper missed the off-season training last summer and did he missed the camp as well? Anyway he wasn't in shape then, so no call up during the season. Not even then when Larkin went down, then there was even meaningful minutes available but no camp/bad camp, means no call up.

Franzen was a late bloomer and 20-year old Kasper is lightyears ahead of 20-year old Franzen but Franzen is a good example how those extra development years helped him to become top-6 player.