Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Toronto goes from blowing late leads in the playoffs to giving up a goal in the first 5 minutes every game, if they start Jones

 

[Mattb124]

I do agree with you that our offense should in theory be better than last years, though there are a ton of question marks (can Zadina find his game? Can Granlund? Is Hoffman totally done? Can Eklund keep developing? Can Duclair regain his form? Etc).

We lost 153 points between Karlsson and Meier, I cannot conceivably see how those get replaced by the new additions.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

We lost 153 points between Karlsson and Meier, I cannot conceivably see how those get replaced by the new additions.

I think the total points from all the players brought in at this point is 109 points though it's potentially an underestimation of what they're capable of putting out since Duclair is plenty capable of putting up more than the 9 points he had last season but that sort of pace is around 37 points for him specifically so not enough to account for what we lost just on Karlsson and Meier alone. We also lost another 132 points through various other departures though. That's about 285 points worth of production to replace with what we've got. It's reasonable to expect a bump in production for a few of these guys but the roughly 180 point gap in what went out and what came in can't all be made up for by healthy years for those injured and increased ice time and role garnering more production out of guys like say Rutta maybe getting PP opportunities. Next year is going to be ugly without Karlsson and Meier and last year was still pretty ugly.

 

[tiburon12]

I wonder if i'll draft any sharks in fantasy this year lol

 

[timorous me]

I wonder if i'll draft any sharks in fantasy this year lol

Just make sure it's not a league that uses plus-minus.

 

[Jargon]

We lost 153 points between Karlsson and Meier, I cannot conceivably see how those get replaced by the new additions.

I don’t really think that’s an accurate way to evaluate a team. Our third and fourth lines were entirely without talent last year, and Karlsson and Meier essentially ran the team.

This year, it should be far more even across the board, and in theory, both the 3rd and 4th lines should have more talent on them. I’m not saying we’re going to be good or anything, but I think there’s a world — albeit a very small one — where each line has an identity and the ability to score, in which case, this will be a far better team offensively.

I hope I’m wrong though, I’d love a top 3 pick!

 

[Sharkz4Fun]

100%. Just responding to the idea that the forward group is somehow improved.

If you think Labanc is better than Granlund idk what to tell you. He's probably worse than Hoffman as well, though that is definitely debateable.

However, there is no denying Granlund/Hoffman/Duclair/Zadina/Etc. are all VASTLY better than Gregor/Svechnikov/Lorentz/Bonino. The latter all max out as a 13th forward. Factor in Eklund and I'm not sure how you can even try and spin it otherwise. At worst Hoffman/Labanc(if traded) is a wash. All others are far better than the cast last year.

We lost 153 points between Karlsson and Meier, I cannot conceivably see how those get replaced by the new additions.

Nvm I keep forgetting no more Meier. As a forward group overall they're much better this year, but that alone almost washes it out. I think they'll just have a much better chance at rolling at least 3 somewhat NHL lines instead of just the usual 1 like last year.

 

[Mattb124]

If you think Labanc is better than Granlund idk what to tell you. He's probably worse than Hoffman as well, though that is definitely debateable.

However, there is no denying Granlund/Hoffman/Duclair/Zadina/Etc. are all VASTLY better than Gregor/Svechnikov/Lorentz/Bonino. The latter all max out as a 13th forward. Factor in Eklund and I'm not sure how you can even try and spin it otherwise. At worst Hoffman/Labanc(if traded) is a wash. All others are far better than the cast last year.


Nvm I keep forgetting no more Meier. As a forward group overall they're much better this year, but that alone almost washes it out. I think they'll just have a much better chance at rolling at least 3 somewhat NHL lines instead of just the usual 1 like last year.

I agree w Jargon and you that we will have more scoring balance, but I just don’t think that a better bottom 6 is going to make up for the loss of Meier (plus what Karlsson contributed on the D side). Overly simplistic, but we would need to see 30+ point years from the new additions to fill that hole.

 

[mogambomoroo]

If you have a let's say
Eklund - Hertl - Zadina
Barbie - Couture - Duclair
Peterson - Granlund - Hoffman
Zetterlund/Smith - Sturm - Kunin/Labanc

I could see a pretty damn balanced forward group. I think Granlund as 3C has not worked out that good, but with Peterson and Hoffman it could be interesting. Top 6 looks balanced and 4th line looks pretty damn good.

 

[Hodge]

If you think Labanc is better than Granlund idk what to tell you. He's probably worse than Hoffman as well, though that is definitely debateable.

However, there is no denying Granlund/Hoffman/Duclair/Zadina/Etc. are all VASTLY better than Gregor/Svechnikov/Lorentz/Bonino. The latter all max out as a 13th forward. Factor in Eklund and I'm not sure how you can even try and spin it otherwise. At worst Hoffman/Labanc(if traded) is a wash. All others are far better than the cast last year.

Labanc is definitely better than Hoffman and probably Granlund as well. Those two are among the worst defensive forwards in the league and they don't score very much anymore either. They're also old and unlikely to be better this season than they were last year.

We're essentially replacing Karlsson with Rutta, Meier with Duclair, Bonino with Granlund, Gregor with Hoffman and Svechnikov with Zadina. So two massive downgrades from our two most productive players and three swaps that are more or less a wash.

Hoffman and Granlund are just famous names. These are horrible players in 2023. There's a reason we got a 1st round pick for absorbing their relatively short term contracts.

 

[stator]

Hoffman and Granlund make Labanc look like a Selke winner. All the forwards we brought in except for Duclair are awful.

Hoffman has better stats than LaBanc comparing their career trajectory. Granlund stats are about the same as Labanc, but he going into the backside of his career. I think he is something like 5 years older.

Defensive ability, none are worthy of bringing up the Selke trophy in a conversation right now.

 

[STL Shark]

100%. Just responding to the idea that the forward group is somehow improved.

It is though. Let's not pretend the forwards we had prior to this were able to play in their own end either. The difference is that while still being bleh in their own end, Hoffman, Granlund, and Duclair can actually put up points in the NHL compared to the guys they're replacing (like Gregor, Svech, etc.)

This is actually a deep and offensively skilled forward group unlike the past 4 years where it has been not deep and not skilled at all outside of maybe 4 guys at a time.

 

[Hodge]

It is though. Let's not pretend the forwards we had prior to this were able to play in their own end either. The difference is that while still being bleh in their own end, Hoffman, Granlund, and Duclair can actually put up points in the NHL compared to the guys they're replacing (like Gregor, Svech, etc.)

This is actually a deep and offensively skilled forward group unlike the past 4 years where it has been not deep and not skilled at all outside of maybe 4 guys at a time.

I like Duclair a lot but he's clearly a huge downgrade from Timo on both sides of the puck. Hoffman and Granlund aren't just bad defensively, they're among the worst regular forwards in the league in that department. Bonino, Svechnikov, Lorentz, maybe even Gregor are better two-way players overall.

Also Hoffman and Granlund only put up points when given a featured role on the power play. If you can believe it, Hoffman actually had a lower 5v5 points per 60 rate over the last 3 seasons compared to Gregor and Bonino. Granlund was very slightly above Gregor and Bones but well below Labanc and Svechnikov. I am skeptical Hoffman and Granlund will even be able to score on the power play since we have nobody remotely resembling a QB and they're also just old and clearly declining.

 

[PacificOceanPotion]

I like Duclair a lot but he's clearly a huge downgrade from Timo on both sides of the puck. Hoffman and Granlund aren't just bad defensively, they're among the worst regular forwards in the league in that department. Bonino, Svechnikov, Lorentz, maybe even Gregor are better two-way players overall.

Also Hoffman and Granlund only put up points when given a featured role on the power play. If you can believe it, Hoffman actually had a lower 5v5 points per 60 rate over the last 3 seasons compared to Gregor and Bonino. Granlund was very slightly above Gregor and Bones but well below Labanc and Svechnikov. I am skeptical Hoffman and Granlund will even be able to score on the power play since we have nobody remotely resembling a QB and they're also just old and clearly declining.

Honestly feel like that PP QB role would be perfect for Muk

 

[Alaskanice]

I watched an interview featuring Drew Remenda and he said that Craig Button said that Muk was legitimately the next young breakout defenseman.
Just thought I’d share that.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I watched an interview featuring Drew Remenda and he said that Craig Button said that Muk was legitimately the next young breakout defenseman.
Just thought I’d share that.

Did he use the word "breakout"?

 

[Alaskanice]

Did he use the word "breakout"?

I can’t recall, maybe, “big.”
I just rewatched it, “He’s the next GUY in the NHL.”

 

[Barrie22]

I like Duclair a lot but he's clearly a huge downgrade from Timo on both sides of the puck. Hoffman and Granlund aren't just bad defensively, they're among the worst regular forwards in the league in that department. Bonino, Svechnikov, Lorentz, maybe even Gregor are better two-way players overall.

Also Hoffman and Granlund only put up points when given a featured role on the power play. If you can believe it, Hoffman actually had a lower 5v5 points per 60 rate over the last 3 seasons compared to Gregor and Bonino. Granlund was very slightly above Gregor and Bones but well below Labanc and Svechnikov. I am skeptical Hoffman and Granlund will even be able to score on the power play since we have nobody remotely resembling a QB and they're also just old and clearly declining.

Is that why grandund had 29 of his 41 points at even strength? All of that power points racking up he did.

And why Hoffman also scored 24 of his 34 points at even?

All 3 of them played between 837 and 980 minutes of even strength time.

What this shows is none should really be relied on for the power play on an actual NHL team. But to say that hoffman and grandlund are absolutely worse then labanc offensively is laughable.

 

[Jargon]

I can’t recall, maybe, “big.”
I just rewatched it, “He’s the next GUY in the NHL.”

If somehow by some insane luck Mukh turns into a top 2 defenseman for us, the rebuild suddenly looks entirely different.

 

[Jargon]

I mean… just looking at stats…

Bonino had 19 points. Svechnikov had 14. Gregor had 17. That was our third line at some point. 50 pts total.

Hoffman had 34, Granlund had 41, and Labanc had 33. If our third line is Hoffman - Granlund - Labanc this year, for 108 points total (hahah they equal almost one Karlsson).

There is no QUESTION that third line is offensively significantly better than our old 3rd line.

The guys left will also make a far stronger 4th line,

The top 2 lines are missing Meier but they’re also more balanced and have more talent. We also have two pretty good power play lines instead of one good one and one that’s made up of scraps.

There’s no doubt the offense is better. The defense is awful.

 

[Hodge]

Is that why grandund had 29 of his 41 points at even strength? All of that power points racking up he did.

And why Hoffman also scored 24 of his 34 points at even?

All 3 of them played between 837 and 980 minutes of even strength time.

What this shows is none should really be relied on for the power play on an actual NHL team. But to say that hoffman and grandlund are absolutely worse then labanc offensively is laughable.

8 of those "even strength" points for Granlund were with the goalie pulled...21 out of 41 points at 5v5 just proves my point that he's a power play merchant. Not a coincidence that his overall production absolutely fell off a cliff when he was traded to a team that had no space for him on the PP. Meanwhile Labanc scored 29 out of his 33 points during actual 5v5 play.

Since 2020 Hoffman has averaged 1.25 5v5 points per 60 minutes which is low end 4th liner production. Less than Gregor, Nieto and Bonino and about 30% less than Labanc. Even when Hoffman was productive he was a power play one-timer and nothing else. Now he's not even very good at that.

Seems like people are just seeing the names Hoffman and Granlund and assuming these are the same players they were 5+ years ago when in reality they're both one more bad year away from departing the NHL. This is why we got a 1st rounder for taking their contracts!

 

[Hodge]

I mean… just looking at stats…

Bonino had 19 points. Svechnikov had 14. Gregor had 17. That was our third line at some point. 50 pts total.

Hoffman had 34, Granlund had 41, and Labanc had 33. If our third line is Hoffman - Granlund - Labanc this year, for 108 points total (hahah they equal almost one Karlsson).

There is no QUESTION that third line is offensively significantly better than our old 3rd line.

The guys left will also make a far stronger 4th line,

The top 2 lines are missing Meier but they’re also more balanced and have more talent. We also have two pretty good power play lines instead of one good one and one that’s made up of scraps.

There’s no doubt the offense is better. The defense is awful.

If we play Hoffman, Granlund and Labanc together as a line for a full season I would bet on them finishing a combined -100 or worse. Sure they might score a little more than Bonino and Svech did but it will come at the expense of giving up significantly more goals against.

When you combine that with major minutes for Duclair and Barabanov, two other high risk one-way wingers, and consider the quality of the defense and goaltending I don't think 400 GA for the season is out of the question. Which is a good thing, this is what we should want.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I mean… just looking at stats…

Bonino had 19 points. Svechnikov had 14. Gregor had 17. That was our third line at some point. 50 pts total.

Hoffman had 34, Granlund had 41, and Labanc had 33. If our third line is Hoffman - Granlund - Labanc this year, for 108 points total (hahah they equal almost one Karlsson).

There is no QUESTION that third line is offensively significantly better than our old 3rd line.

The guys left will also make a far stronger 4th line,

The top 2 lines are missing Meier but they’re also more balanced and have more talent. We also have two pretty good power play lines instead of one good one and one that’s made up of scraps.

There’s no doubt the offense is better. The defense is awful.

If Hoffman-Granlund-Labanc are our 3rd line, our top two lines becomes something like Eklund-Hertl-Zadina and Duclair-Couture-Barabanov. I don't believe that they're more balanced with that arrangement. Better third line, I agree but worse top six. I do think the forwards are better but not in a meaningful way for their fortunes when Karlsson is gone and they have no real catalyst up front or on the back end to generate offense. They're going to have to really play a structured 200 foot game from all players to be competitive and productive. Those 3rd line wingers certainly won't be that sort of player. Zadina may have the 200 foot game but if he's up that high in that lineup and not producing, it's still a net negative.

 

[Jargon]

Don’t get me wrong, fellas, I realize most of our offense can’t play defense and most of our defense can’t help on offense, I just think offensively we’re going to be better and more fun to watch because we can actually
roll 4 lines of more or less offensively
talented players. We’re still going to lose games like 6-5 but that’s awesome, that’s like the best case tank scenario.

 

[Hodge]

Will be interesting to see if Quinn keeps the same system where the D are expected to pinch with reckless abandon to try and get the puck back every time we lose it in the offensive zone. Not sure if that was put in place just to juice EK's numbers but if not we could set the single season GA record.