Speculation: 2022-23 Sharks Roster Discussion Part II

[Kcoyote3]

He's gone from horrendous to bad at defense. It's an improvement. I just wonder how much else is coming. It would be kind of fun to see what Merkley can do with all the offensive talent coming into the Cuda. I could see a PPG season out of him at the AHL level.

 

[themelkman]

He's gone from horrendous to bad at defense. It's an improvement. I just wonder how much else is coming. It would be kind of fun to see what Merkley can do with all the offensive talent coming into the Cuda. I could see a PPG season out of him at the AHL level.

If he cant secure a full time NHL job this year im not sure theres hope for him. Its now or never to prove he can do special stuff

 

[Karl Prime]

It's pretty hard to put a balanced lineup together. Our best forwards (Couture, Hertl, Meier) are primarily F3s. We don't have enough playmakers still. However, we did bring in really solid forechecker/puck battlers. I would kinda categorize them primarily as:

F1: Kunin, Lorentz, Sturm, Gregor, Nieto
F2: Eklund, Barabanov
F3: Meier, Hertl, Couture, Bonino, Lindblom, Labanc

Labanc, Hertl, and Couture could fill in as F2s but it hasn't really been their primary roles in recent times. Hertl might be at his best as an F1 really just because of how dominant he can be along the boards.

Anyways, I kinda just want to stack the lineup as much as possible and grind it out the rest of the way down. There's not really a forward lineup that's going to lead to consistent winning.

Hertl(F1)-Couture(F2)-Meier(F3)
Eklund(F2)-Sturm(F1)-Labanc(F3)
Lindblom(F3)-Kunin(F1)-Barabanov(F2)
Gregor(F1)-Bonino(F3)-Lorentz(F1)
Nieto,Svechnikov

What is an F1, F2, and F3?

 

[hohosaregood]

What is an F1, F2, and F3?

Hmm somehow I've figured this to be a known thing but maybe I just settled it in my head

F1=fore checkers, dump in chasers, first guy in
F2=distributors, playmakers, picks up the play after F1
F3=shooters, scorers, gets in position to score, receive the puck from F2

 

[tiburon12]

What is an F1, F2, and F3?

Consider the ice oriented up/down, with offense attacking upward.

The F1 is "up"-most forward on transition, either carrying the puck or chasing a dump-in etc.

F2 is the 2nd forward in on offense and their role is to be ready to accept a pass, help on the forecheck, etc.

F3 is the 3rd in and plays a support role to the other Fs.

In a Sharks context, the best example I can think of is the Pavelski - Thornton - Hertl line in 2016. Hertl was the F1, either carrying it in or winning a forecheck battle. Jumbo (F2) would swoop in a get a short pass from Hertl and look for Pavelski (F3) in a scoring position. Other examples are Burrows (F1) - H Sedin (F2) - D Sedin (F3) and Pasta (F3) - Bergeron (F2) - Marchand (F1).

Usually F1 is a go-to guy since each line typically has someone who wants the puck, but the roles can be swapped mid shift, depending on how the play develops.

 

[hohosaregood]

Consider the ice oriented up/down, with offense attacking upward.

The F1 is "up"-most forward on transition, either carrying the puck or chasing a dump-in etc.

F2 is the 2nd forward in on offense and their role is to be ready to accept a pass, help on the forecheck, etc.

F3 is the 3rd in and plays a support role to the other Fs.

In a Sharks context, the best example I can think of is the Pavelski - Thornton - Hertl line in 2016. Hertl was the F1, either carrying it in or winning a forecheck battle. Jumbo (F2) would swoop in a get a short pass from Hertl and look for Pavelski (F3) in a scoring position. Other examples are Burrows (F1) - H Sedin (F2) - D Sedin (F3) and Pasta (F3) - Bergeron (F2) - Marchand (F1).

Usually F1 is a go-to guy since each line typically has someone who wants the puck, but the roles can be swapped mid shift, depending on how the play develops.

yea this is a way better explanation and really good examples of what i was thinking of. obviously hockey is very fluid and it's not always going to go down that way but i think it's a quick and dirty set of role definitions for a line.

 

[tiburon12]

yea this is a way better explanation and really good examples of what i was thinking of. obviously hockey is very fluid and it's not always going to go down that way but i think it's a quick and dirty set of role definitions for a line.

yea for sure. Haha even as I was writing that i was thinking "well, not always...."

but it's a quality system to at least base some line deployment around, in addition to organizing a rush. Like, Meier and Kaprizov, two puck carrying F1s would probably not mesh well together

 

[hohosaregood]

yea for sure. Haha even as I was writing that i was thinking "well, not always...."

but it's a quality system to at least base some line deployment around, in addition to organizing a rush. Like, Meier and Kaprizov, two puck carrying F1s would probably not mesh well together

and it depends a lot on the team system too because i was thinking about it in terms of dump and chase and categorized my F1s as the grinders going in to win puck battles and here you are talking about zone entry guys.

 

[Barrie22]

If he cant secure a full time NHL job this year im not sure theres hope for him. Its now or never to prove he can do special stuff

So you would of gave up on roman josi, brent burns, shea theodore, tyson barrie just to name a few more defensemen that took longer then 2 years to make a name and take a roster spot in the nhl.

 

[Gecklund]

He's gone from horrendous to bad at defense. It's an improvement. I just wonder how much else is coming. It would be kind of fun to see what Merkley can do with all the offensive talent coming into the Cuda. I could see a PPG season out of him at the AHL level.

Yeah I mean definitely but I also think he could step into the third pair and potentially even the second pair on the Sharks and have a good season. I think he deserves at the very least a shot to make the team.

So you would of gave up on roman josi, brent burns, shea theodore, tyson barrie just to name a few more defensemen that took longer then 2 years to make a name and take a roster spot in the nhl.

How many of them were in their D+4 season? I don’t disagree with your point at all I just think 2 years is a little misleading.

 

[STL Shark]

Even if you believe Merkley and Lundkvist are equivalent prospects (I think Lundkvist is clearly superior, but whatever) isn't it twice as good to have two Merkleys and double your chances of getting a NHL defenseman?

Right now the Sharks defense corps both on the big club and in the prospect pool is a barren wasteland. The forwards aren't good either but at least you have Eklund, Bystedt looks intriguing and Hertl and Meier are still on the roster for now.

Now is the time to start taking chances on young defensemen who have fallen out of favor with other organizations. It's much safer to use high draft picks on forwards than defensemen and address the future center depth that way. Our future defense will very likely need to be traded for or signed as UFAs.

When did small D-Men become desirable again? Need you to pick a lane on do small D-Men matter or not? You've staunchly criticized the prior regime for going in on the offensive D-Men that are undersized, but now you are advocating trading an asset of value for the exact same archetype of player. Pick a side.

I think Merkley will end up being a special player. The guy is as fierce as they come, great competitor, and Im sure deep down all he wants is to prove the hockey world he can be a star.

If he learns from Karlsson he can tap in that insane potential and live up to his talent. Last season he's shown flashes of his upside in his time with the Sharks, how can you be so negative about that?

Future 1st PP QB right there.

Good to see you get an account there, Ryan. Less posting about yourself and more time in the gym.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

Consider the ice oriented up/down, with offense attacking upward.

…

Well, no wonder why the Sharks can’t win it all; Ender teaches us the enemy’s gate is down. The Sharks are conceding defeat from the very start.

 

[sharski]

What is an F1, F2, and F3?

F1 = ballhogs who would do everything themselves if they could, bless their hearts
F2 = intellectuals who are 2 snooty 2 b a basic shooter
F3 = prima donnas who low-key think of themselves as the Michael Jordan of hockey

Good to see you get an account there, Ryan. Less posting about yourself and more time in the gym.

Disagree

I demand all sharks create an account here IMMEDIATELY and start toasting roll breads, even at the expense of practice time

 

[Hodge]

When did small D-Men become desirable again? Need you to pick a lane on do small D-Men matter or not? You've staunchly criticized the prior regime for going in on the offensive D-Men that are undersized, but now you are advocating trading an asset of value for the exact same archetype of player. Pick a side.

I'm advocating trading an undersized offense-only forward for an undersized offense-only defenseman. It's not like I'm suggesting they trade Bystedt or even Laroque for Lundkvist. This trade would not make the Sharks prospect system any smaller but it would give them one potential top four defenseman in the pipeline instead of their current total of zero.

 

[Barrie22]

Yeah I mean definitely but I also think he could step into the third pair and potentially even the second pair on the Sharks and have a good season. I think he deserves at the very least a shot to make the team.


How many of them were in their D+4 season? I don’t disagree with your point at all I just think 2 years is a little misleading.

Josi was drafted in 2008, 1st nhl game was 2011/12 and then became a full time nhl player in the 2012/13 season. So 5 seasons after his draft year.

Defensemen take longer usually to get into the nhl as there are less spots open for them to crack a lineup.

 

[Gecklund]

Josi was drafted in 2008, 1st nhl game was 2011/12 and then became a full time nhl player in the 2012/13 season. So 5 seasons after his draft year.

Defensemen take longer usually to get into the nhl as there are less spots open for them to crack a lineup.

So the best example is from 10 years ago. I agree defensemen can take longer but in recent years the ones that are actually turning out more than #4 level are usually breaking down the door which I don’t think Merkley has been doing really.

Now don’t get me wrong I agree with you that you can’t write Merkley off yet at all and I’d love to see him on the NHL and this isn’t some make or break year for him but I think if he’s not breaking down the door this year, I think that should show he’s probably not going to turn out like we all hoped.

 

[TheBeard]

So the best example is from 10 years ago. I agree defensemen can take longer but in recent years the ones that are actually turning out more than #4 level are usually breaking down the door which I don’t think Merkley has been doing really.

Now don’t get me wrong I agree with you that you can’t write Merkley off yet at all and I’d love to see him on the NHL and this isn’t some make or break year for him but I think if he’s not breaking down the door this year, I think that should show he’s probably not going to turn out like we all hoped.

Adam Fox.

 

[Barrie22]

So the best example is from 10 years ago. I agree defensemen can take longer but in recent years the ones that are actually turning out more than #4 level are usually breaking down the door which I don’t think Merkley has been doing really.

Now don’t get me wrong I agree with you that you can’t write Merkley off yet at all and I’d love to see him on the NHL and this isn’t some make or break year for him but I think if he’s not breaking down the door this year, I think that should show he’s probably not going to turn out like we all hoped.

To me i don't really see the big issues that everyone else does, he is one of the better players on the team at keeping shots against to a minimum as he and karlsson lead the defense in sat and usat.

 

[Gecklund]

Adam Fox.

Does he really count? He stayed in college because he didn’t want to play for CGY or CAR. Also it took 3 years not 4.

To me i don't really see the big issues that everyone else does, he is one of the better players on the team at keeping shots against to a minimum as he and karlsson lead the defense in sat and usat.

Yeah I mean I think his defensive issues highly overstated which is pretty similar for all of the offensive Dmen in the league but he does need to get a lot better in that department to be a second pairing D.

 

[Herschel]

So the best example is from 10 years ago. I agree defensemen can take longer but in recent years the ones that are actually turning out more than #4 level are usually breaking down the door which I don’t think Merkley has been doing really.

Now don’t get me wrong I agree with you that you can’t write Merkley off yet at all and I’d love to see him on the NHL and this isn’t some make or break year for him but I think if he’s not breaking down the door this year, I think that should show he’s probably not going to turn out like we all hoped.

Shea Theodore might be a better comparison.

drafted in 2013
2015, 19 GP
2016, 34 GP
2017, 61 GP

It wasn't till the second al of 2017 that Theodore would be considered an established NHLer.

 

[Gecklund]

Shea Theodore might be a better comparison.

drafted in 2013
2015, 19 GP
2016, 34 GP
2017, 61 GP

It wasn't till the second al of 2017 that Theodore would be considered an established NHLer.

Yeah definitely a better comparison. I will say with Theodore I remember him being super highly doubted in those years but couldn’t break in because ANA had insane depth. Merkley had a similar thing happen because you can’t really have 3 guys who aren’t very good defensively.

 

[stator]

Adam Fox.

Somehow the Sharks thought that Gambrell would have more of an impact than Fox. Gambrell is basically a NHL journeyman that is heading towards being a washout. Iirc, Nieto put up better NHL numbers at the same age.

 

[Gecklund]

Somehow the Sharks thought that Gambrell would have more of an impact than Fox. Gambrell is basically a NHL journeyman that is heading towards being a washout. Iirc, Nieto put up better NHL numbers at the same age.

Fox wasn’t great when he was drafted…. He developed a ton in college.

 

[Cas]

Yeah definitely a better comparison. I will say with Theodore I remember him being super highly doubted in those years but couldn’t break in because ANA had insane depth. Merkley had a similar thing happen because you can’t really have 3 guys who aren’t very good defensively.

I wish we had only three defensemen who weren't very good defensively.

Fox wasn’t great when he was drafted…. He developed a ton in college.

Scouting is hard, so frankly I generally can't blame any team for drafting a bust before a good player. It happens to every team in every sport every year.

I feel like the only time you can really blame a team for an outcome like this is when they have the #1 (or a very high pick) and pass on obvious talent for financial or other non-playing reasons (the best examples I have are in baseball - Matt Bush and Bryan Bullington).

 

[Gecklund]

I wish we had only three defensemen who weren't very good defensively.



Scouting is hard, so frankly I generally can't blame any team for drafting a bust before a good player. It happens to every team in every sport every year.

I feel like the only time you can really blame a team for an outcome like this is when they have the #1 (or a very high pick) and pass on obvious talent for financial or other non-playing reasons (the best examples I have are in baseball - Matt Bush and Bryan Bullington).

Especially after the first round. As we start getting past the first/second round it’s very dependent on development.