GDT: 2022-23 season game 38 LA Kings vs Vegas Golden Knights @7:30pm 12/27/22

GoldenBearHockey

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“It’s all about meaningless wins now” is legitimately the same thought process that drug the kings to the darkest days of their black hole years.

Winning 40ish games and making the playoffs just to get bounced in the first round is a horrid game plan.

You’ve gotta develop homegrown talent in NHL games if you want to be successful. Period.

100%....let's see...Vilardi, Kaliyev, Durzi (though not drafted, he never played for TML), Roy, Lizotte, Iafallo, Andersson, Kupari, Grundstrom, Moore, (same deal, not really home grown, but didn't break out until he hit LA....

Who am I missing, besides the old...home grown talent....

Really don't understand the thought process that LA doesn't groom talent.....because...Colorado...last year, absolutely dominated with h....wait, KAdri, Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Toews, Helm, Manson, Kuemp.....
 
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Axl Rhoadz

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100%....let's see...Vilardi, Kaliyev, Durzi (though not drafted, he never played for TML), Roy, Lizotte, Iafallo, Andersson, Kupari, Grundstrom, Moore, (same deal, not really home grown, but didn't break out until he hit LA....

Who am I missing, besides the old...home grown talent....

Really don't understand the thought process that LA doesn't groom talent.....because...Colorado...last year, absolutely dominated with h....wait, KAdri, Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Toews, Helm, Manson, Kuemp.....
The thought process is….same clown show, same clown channel.
 
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Sol

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These wins mean nothing if byfield and Clarke don’t come close to their draft pedigree. If they don’t, the wins set back the organization since they will be stuck in mediocrity with good ufas winning games and the homegrown talent not becoming anything.

I think most of us know this but apparently some people think we’re being negative since we have the capacity to see the team beyond wins and losses
 
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GoldenBearHockey

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These wins mean nothing if byfield and Clarke don’t come close to their draft pedigree. If they don’t, the wins set back the organization since they will be stuck in mediocrity with good ufas winning games and the homegrown talent not becoming anything.

I think most of us know this but apparently some people think we’re being negative since we have the capacity to see the team beyond wins and losses

Just making sure I got this straight, if Vilardi, Spence, Durzi, Andersson, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Lizotte, Kupari, Turcotte all work out........these wins won't mean anything because Byfield and Clarke?

Is that the premise you are going with?
 
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King'sPawn

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Actually, that's not true. Way too simplistic. In the playoffs -- sure it's basically win each game at all costs. But during the season, there are sooooo many factors at play beyond simply winning game #X. Otherwise you would have your top 4-5 guys playing half the game all season and your top goalie playing all 82 games -- screw the consequences and screw the young guys (young guys who can develop and help win playoff games THIS year).
Well said.

People say the NHL isn't a developmental league when players actually develop further in the NHL. Nobody comes in the NHL as a finished product.

An organization which should be out of a rebuild (and we KNOW this because they are trying to make the playoffs, for those who can't keep track) should be putting the pieces acquired during a rebuild in positions to succeed and grow.
 
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Axl Rhoadz

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These wins mean nothing if byfield and Clarke don’t come close to their draft pedigree. If they don’t, the wins set back the organization since they will be stuck in mediocrity with good ufas winning games and the homegrown talent not becoming anything.

I think most of us know this but apparently some people think we’re being negative since we have the capacity to see the team beyond wins and losses
Zzzzzzz
 

AbsentMojo

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Just a baffling hire all around. Todd was always known as a veterans’ coach. Why he was entrusted with this rebuild is knowledge known only to Rob Blake.
I chalk it up to Blake being a 1st time GM and having played for TM was comfortable with him. Maybe Blake was also under the illusion that the cup core was going to stay relevant at the time of his hire.
 

AbsentMojo

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But realistically what you are trying to argue, is that the players we had on defense, are MUCH DIFFERENT/(BETTER) last year......than they are this year, despite being what, 80% the same? How does that equate to the personnel being the issue, and not the change in system/structure
I didnt like last years D squad before DD injury. After DD went down, I thought it over-performed (dont know why). This year the squad is empirically worse (not saying the talent is worse) - but its not the same personnel (no Spence, Bjornfot, Stecher, Maata).. so thats hard to analyze. The main point in my post is I feel there is too much salary committed to offense and no 2nd pair LD or Goalies in the pipeline. And to be honest, I think the d-corps needs a 1st pair PM-LD as well to pair w DD who is becoming more stay at home. In order to rectify all that, Blake/TM should try to develop some young cheap offensive talent into the top 6, move some salary on offense, and use cap space to improve D and goaltending. Signing Moore and soon Vilardi...have way too much salary committed to the forwards. Something has to give there.
 

Schrute farms

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Nobody is getting screwed, you guys are just overly dramatic.
Reading comprehension: I don't think you read my post (that you made this response to) properly at all.... certainly missed the point completely. But guess that doesn't matter because -- agenda.
 
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Schrute farms

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100%, who isn't helping, Vilardi, Kaliyev, Durzi, Lizotte? Who?
At the risk of regret: Byfield is the main topic and issue as it pertains to last night-- especially with the Kopi overuse.
GV was an issue before, but he's eventually forced his hand into more playing time and better (PP) usage. AK34 still an issue (esp on PP usage) but maybe less than the past. Other issues as well. But for that comment and the glaring issue is QB & Kopi. I would think we all agree kopi needs to play less and more efficiently used; and that for the future of the Kings, we need someone like Byfield to eventually ascend to a top 1-2 line center.
I think less time and better usage for DD would also benefit him down the road but until Clarke is up that's not as clear cut (maybe Spence).
 
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crassbonanza

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Really don't understand the thought process that LA doesn't groom talent.....because...Colorado...last year, absolutely dominated with h....wait, KAdri, Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Toews, Helm, Manson, Kuemp.....

I noticed you didn't mention Mack, Rantanen or Makar in your list of players that dominated in the playoffs last year. Odd that you don't consider the Conn Smythe winner as a part of the reason they dominated the playoffs last year.

The reality is that the Kings have developed some decent middle 6 forwards and middle pair defencemen, but they have not produced a game breaker as of yet, despite having multiple lottery picks. Depth is critical, but you need high end players to win the cup. Look back at the cup winners, you will find that most teams had players who were considered top 10 at their positions. The Blues are probably the best recent example of a depth cup win, but even they had a Selke winner in O'Reilly who put up 77 points and Binnington putting up crazy numbers(top 5 in Vezina voting).
 

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Just a reminder boyz, the goal is to win games…not babysit. Hats off to TM for getting a solid effort out of these guys after the Xmas break. Let’s go!
Surely the goal is to win a cup, not games. To do that they must properly develop the top prospects or there’s no chance and if they are doing that well is open to debate. That’s why in of itself making the play-offs last year or this year isn’t the bench mark for me.

I’d happily sacrifice making the play-offs, if it were the cost of maximising the development of Byfield, Clarke, Vilardi etc. That’s not to say they need to be mutually exclusive but I want to see the optimal development of those players and have the chips fall accordingly from there. That’s where longer term sustainable success will come from and ideally another cup.

That isn’t baby sitting, it’s building the foundations for sustainable competitive teams.

However, yes TM seems to be righting the ship and he’s definitely speaking in a better manner himself. The true test will be the manner with which they deal with the next spell of adversity. Do they roll over or battle all the way?
 
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Raccoon Jesus

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100%....let's see...Vilardi, Kaliyev, Durzi (though not drafted, he never played for TML), Roy, Lizotte, Iafallo, Andersson, Kupari, Grundstrom, Moore, (same deal, not really home grown, but didn't break out until he hit LA....

Who am I missing, besides the old...home grown talent....

Really don't understand the thought process that LA doesn't groom talent.....because...Colorado...last year, absolutely dominated with h....wait, KAdri, Nichuskin, Burakovsky, Toews, Helm, Manson, Kuemp.....

Just making sure I got this straight, if Vilardi, Spence, Durzi, Andersson, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Lizotte, Kupari, Turcotte all work out........these wins won't mean anything because Byfield and Clarke?

Is that the premise you are going with?

That's actually really good illustration of the opposing argument, so yes.

Colorado did an excellent job supplementing their homegrown young core--MacKinnon, Makar, Rantanen, even older ones such as Landeskog--with excellent supplemental players in Nuke, Kadri, etc. and even vets like Helm.

Much like we're arguing for the Kings need to re-establish their homegrown young core--Byfield, Clarke, Turcotte, Kaliyev, even 'older' ones such as Vilardi--with excellent supplemental players in Spence, Anderson, Thomas, etc. and even vets like Moore, Danault, Arvy.

The LUXURY the Kings have over Colorado here is having guys like Kopitar and Doughty to ease people in--but the easing isn't happening, this would be like if Colorado kept and played Duchene and erik Johnson 25 minutes per game while waiting for MacKinnon to take off on the 4th line next to Blake Comeau or some shit.
 

Sol

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Just making sure I got this straight, if Vilardi, Spence, Durzi, Andersson, Kaliyev, Fagemo, Lizotte, Kupari, Turcotte all work out........these wins won't mean anything because Byfield and Clarke?

Is that the premise you are going with?
What’s fundamentally wrong with your entire premise is that Colorados core are home grown talent on a superstar level. Kings have not one person close to that yet. The Kings best players right now are Kaliyev and Vilardi. That’s a far cry from Colorado. Kings don’t have a superstar core yet and they might not. That’s the big undeniable problem that the Kings are facing. Byfield looks like ass for a super star pick. And Clarke is unfortunately not showing to be anything too special. Maybe a little above Voynov tier. Nothing like Kopitar, Doughty, Mackinnon, Makar.

The biggest issues facing the Kings is the youth and how they’re used. They don’t look like anything special and you need special to win cups.
 

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But realistically what you are trying to argue, is that the players we had on defense, are MUCH DIFFERENT/(BETTER) last year......than they are this year, despite being what, 80% the same? How does that equate to the personnel being the issue, and not the change in system/structure
Only Anderson played regularly on the left last year, so on left D it’s just 33%. That’s a big part of the problem because the D is unbalanced. So it is personal in that one player is out of position and playing too many minutes and another is aging and simply playing too many games.

There have also been a significant number of individual errors from Roy and Durzi in particular that have cost goals. They both turn the puck over for fun… thats on them.

It is of course a number of things, never just one or the other. However, it’s compounded when you have Björnfot and Spence ready to go, it just feeds the frustration as they are 2 of our best 6 defencemen and are more a part of the future than the guys playing ahead of them. Whilst I know it’s not as simple as just calling them up and playing them, it makes the frustration reasonable. So I’m blaming everyone for the share of it.

Sorry, I’m incapable of a short answer 😂
 

SettlementRichie10

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I chalk it up to Blake being a 1st time GM and having played for TM was comfortable with him. Maybe Blake was also under the illusion that the cup core was going to stay relevant at the time of his hire.

I mean, that’s literally what Blake and Luc told the fans after they swept in with their palace coup in 2017. We’re not finished contending for a Cup. Etc etc etc.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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I noticed you didn't mention Mack, Rantanen or Makar in your list of players that dominated in the playoffs last year. Odd that you don't consider the Conn Smythe winner as a part of the reason they dominated the playoffs last year.

The reality is that the Kings have developed some decent middle 6 forwards and middle pair defencemen, but they have not produced a game breaker as of yet, despite having multiple lottery picks. Depth is critical, but you need high end players to win the cup. Look back at the cup winners, you will find that most teams had players who were considered top 10 at their positions. The Blues are probably the best recent example of a depth cup win, but even they had a Selke winner in O'Reilly who put up 77 points and Binnington putting up crazy numbers(top 5 in Vezina voting).
That's actually really good illustration of the opposing argument, so yes.

Colorado did an excellent job supplementing their homegrown young core--MacKinnon, Makar, Rantanen, even older ones such as Landeskog--with excellent supplemental players in Nuke, Kadri, etc. and even vets like Helm.

Much like we're arguing for the Kings need to re-establish their homegrown young core--Byfield, Clarke, Turcotte, Kaliyev, even 'older' ones such as Vilardi--with excellent supplemental players in Spence, Anderson, Thomas, etc. and even vets like Moore, Danault, Arvy.

The LUXURY the Kings have over Colorado here is having guys like Kopitar and Doughty to ease people in--but the easing isn't happening, this would be like if Colorado kept and played Duchene and erik Johnson 25 minutes per game while waiting for MacKinnon to take off on the 4th line next to Blake Comeau or some shit.

Makar, Rantanen, MacKinnon, absolutely, it took Colorado NINE YEARS.....after they drafted MacKinnon to win....NINE YEARS.....

Yet we are bitching because it's taken THREE since we took Byfield.....and we aren't winning? And Byfield IS NOWHERE NEAR THE PLAYER MACKINNON IS/WAS during his draft year, he was much more of a project....

There's a reason why I didn't include a #1 OA, a #10OA and a #4 OA or whatever Makar was.....because it TOOK THEM NINE YEARS....to compete.....

Only Anderson played regularly on the left last year, so on left D it’s just 33%. That’s a big part of the problem because the D is unbalanced. So it is personal in that one player is out of position and playing too many minutes and another is aging and simply playing too many games.

There have also been a significant number of individual errors from Roy and Durzi in particular that have cost goals. They both turn the puck over for fun… thats on them.

It is of course a number of things, never just one or the other. However, it’s compounded when you have Björnfot and Spence ready to go, it just feeds the frustration as they are 2 of our best 6 defencemen and are more a part of the future than the guys playing ahead of them. Whilst I know it’s not as simple as just calling them up and playing them, it makes the frustration reasonable. So I’m blaming everyone for the share of it.

Sorry, I’m incapable of a short answer 😂

Both Bjornfoot and Spence were playing big minutes in the AHL developing their game....correct? What exactly is the issue? We DON'T want to develop them?

What’s fundamentally wrong with your entire premise is that Colorados core are home grown talent on a superstar level. Kings have not one person close to that yet. The Kings best players right now are Kaliyev and Vilardi. That’s a far cry from Colorado. Kings don’t have a superstar core yet and they might not. That’s the big undeniable problem that the Kings are facing. Byfield looks like ass for a super star pick. And Clarke is unfortunately not showing to be anything too special. Maybe a little above Voynov tier. Nothing like Kopitar, Doughty, Mackinnon, Makar.

The biggest issues facing the Kings is the youth and how they’re used. They don’t look like anything special and you need special to win cups.

NINE YEARS...is what it took....for "special"
 
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crassbonanza

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Makar, Rantanen, MacKinnon, absolutely, it took Colorado NINE YEARS.....after they drafted MacKinnon to win....NINE YEARS.....

Yet we are bitching because it's taken THREE since we took Byfield.....and we aren't winning? And Byfield IS NOWHERE NEAR THE PLAYER MACKINNON IS/WAS during his draft year, he was much more of a project....

There's a reason why I didn't include a #1 OA, a #10OA and a #4 OA or whatever Makar was.....because it TOOK THEM NINE YEARS....to compete.....

I am saying that the Kings have yet to develop a high end player, if we are touting players like Trevor Moore and Sean Durzi as featured development successes, then the development might not be the best. Moore is a .5 PPG forward who is about to turn 28 and Sean Durzi is an exciting player, but his underlying numbers are Jack Minus Forever Johnson levels of atrocious. Since Blake was hired, the Kings have had the 11th, 20th, 5th. 2nd and 8th overall draft picks and so far we have not seen anywhere near the results from those picks that you would hope for. You are right that it is still early and one of them could break out at any time, but you can't claim they have been successful at development when we have multiple lottery picks struggling to adapt their game to the NHL.
 

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Both Bjornfoot and Spence were playing big minutes in the AHL developing their game....correct? What exactly is the issue? We DON'T want to develop them?
As with other things I’ve said playing in the NHL and development are not mutually exclusive. They can help the NHL team and develop at the same time if used properly. The D is not balanced on the left so Björnfot is a logical option (played fine across his 4 games) and Spence is a better player IMO than anyone on the right not named Doughty. Like I said making room isn’t that easy but its still frustrating because these guys are the future.
 

GoldenBearHockey

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I am saying that the Kings have yet to develop a high end player, if we are touting players like Trevor Moore and Sean Durzi as featured development successes, then the development might not be the best. Moore is a .5 PPG forward who is about to turn 28 and Sean Durzi is an exciting player, but his underlying numbers are Jack Minus Forever Johnson levels of atrocious. Since Blake was hired, the Kings have had the 11th, 20th, 5th. 2nd and 8th overall draft picks and so far we have not seen anywhere near the results from those picks that you would hope for. You are right that it is still early and one of them could break out at any time, but you can't claim they have been successful at development when we have multiple lottery picks struggling to adapt their game to the NHL.

So we just ignore the players they have developed?
 

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