2022-2023 Blues Multi-Purpose Thread

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PocketNines

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Stop presenting facts that don't fit a narrative that someone is trying to create.
LOL wait ... that Berube presser last night was my "narrative" ... I hope you know that when a person lies to himself in life it has negative consequences.

I don't care if I am the only one here who gets that these two are not the guys, because they are not the guys. I don't think I'm the only one here, but it wouldn't matter either way.

I want them to be amazing players that lead the Blues to more great seasons and lots of winning. I know that when I cut against the grain, the first thing people like to do is call it an agenda. I had an agenda when I was like uh guys, Chris Stewart absolutely sucks and we should get rid of him, I had an agenda when I said Ryan Miller would be a terrible trade idea, I had an agenda when I said Pietrangelo leaving ended the window, I had an agenda when I first came back here and said Krug is a 4-5 on a contender and Brian absolutely lit me up for how ridiculous that was and we went toe to toe, and sure enough I have an agenda to say Kyrou and Thomas are not the guys. Or maybe I don't have an agenda other than seeing the Blues build the best winning team they can and I am not afraid to say uncomfortable truth enough in advance and I'm willing to brawl with people who come at me for it.
 
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STL fan in MN

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Sounds like we’re all on the same page now - Berube was calling out multiple guys last night. Two of which are Thomas and Kyrou. And he was absolutely right. TBD if it’ll be beneficial or make the complainers mope even more. But regardless, we’re seeing the true character of some of the guys and it’s not good at all.

And IMO, it had to be really bad for Torpo to basically say the same thing. “This is NHL, not some beer league. You need to show heart/character.” In response to effort/shots generated: “This was the worst game (in terms of that) in my entire life.”

I cleaned up some of Torpo’s English there but that’s what I took from his comments. Also harsh…but spot on. Curious to see how the older guys will take that from a rookie. Hopefully well but I have my doubts.

I also agree with P9’s general take that the big extensions were a mistake and Kyrou and Thomas aren’t the guys to build around. I’m on the fence about Thomas though. Kyrou has been my least favorite Blue for a while but I could see Thomas being a good Core guy in time. He needs to grow up though…but what’s the incentive if he’s already been rewarded with a contract that sets him up for life? He’ll have to dig deep into his identity and find some pride. Hopefully that happens. If not, the Blues are absolutely screwed with those 2 contracts.
 

PJJJP

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Sounds like we’re all on the same page now - Berube was calling out multiple guys last night. Two of which are Thomas and Kyrou. And he was absolutely right. TBD if it’ll be beneficial or make the complainers mope even more. But regardless, we’re seeing the true character of some of the guys and it’s not good at all.

And IMO, it had to be really bad for Torpo to basically say the same thing. “This is NHL, not some beer league. You need to show heart/character.” In response to effort/shots generated: “This was the worst game (in terms of that) in my entire life.”

I cleaned up some of Torpo’s English there but that’s what I took from his comments. Also harsh…but spot on. Curious to see how the older guys will take that from a rookie. Hopefully well but I have my doubts.

I also agree with P9’s general take that the big extensions were a mistake and Kyrou and Thomas aren’t the guys to build around. I’m on the fence about Thomas though. Kyrou has been my least favorite Blue for a while but I could see Thomas being a good Core guy in time. He needs to grow up though…but what’s the incentive if he’s already been rewarded with a contract that sets him up for life? He’ll have to dig deep into his identity and find some pride. Hopefully that happens. If not, the Blues are absolutely screwed with those 2 contracts.
So who do we build around?
 
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STL fan in MN

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So who do we build around?
Good question.

That’s what the rest of this season and next season are for IMO. To determine if we have the right foundation in place to build around.

ie. can Thomas and Kyrou grow up and lead by example. They were handed the keys to the car. So far, it looks like the task is too much for them. Hopefully that changes or like I said, the Blues are completely screwed.

If those two definitively show that they are absolutely not the guys to lead the next core, there’s really only 2 options I see moving forward.

1. trade for guys that have that leadership (an ROR type or two)

2. hope the next set of prospects are the Core (Snuggy, Bolduc, Neighbours, whoever we get from 2023 draft).

Option 2 is of course horribly not ideal as it’d take many years and there’s no guarantee those future guys will have any better character/leadership than Thomas or Kyrou.

My guess is Army will try Option 1. If not to instill new leaders, than to at least supplement the current leadership group.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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I don’t understand agonizing about who are ‘core’ players and who aren’t. Thomas was just fine as a contributor on the Cup run. Kyrou’s scoring would have had a place on that team too. But I don’t know that they have to be the main guys carrying the largest load.

The Cap will rise and there will be room to add more high caliber players like the Schenn, Faulk, Buchnevich trades. If you have enough good players like that, I don’t see why we would think the Blues’ culture will fail.

Everyone is rightfully frustrated right now. And it’s likely to get worse when additional good players get traded. Berube has a responsibility to preserve a winning culture, and that will probably look like an overmatched team playing their asses off but still losing. He has to punch these buttons right now.

I don’t see any of that as an indication that Thomas and Kyrou aren’t top 6 players on a Cup contender. I hope they both grow and get better, but I expect Armstrong to surround them with a lot of other good players who can carry the scoring load, too. Who we say is ‘core’ or not becomes irrelevant when you’re not perusing the trade market.

Once the 2019 team started to put it together, there weren’t any passengers. Distinguishing a Core was not very useful then. This team needs a lot more, but I don’t believe Thomas or Kyrou can’t be part of it.
 

STL fan in MN

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The fractured room has spilled into this forum. So it goes.
Yeah, everyone’s in a foul mood now and it’s bleeding elsewhere. Lots of arguments over semantics I’ve seen while catching up on this board this morning. Krug is THE problem vs he’s part of the problem. Berube called out just 2 guys vs he called out multiple guys, etc.

The Blues currently suck. There are lot of players contributing to that. And plenty of the blame can be attributed to the coaching staff (schematics) and GM (past roster moves) as well.

It’s really that simple. What’s not simple is the path forward - how to fix it.
 

STL fan in MN

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I don’t understand agonizing about who are ‘core’ players and who aren’t. Thomas was just fine as a contributor on the Cup run. Kyrou’s scoring would have had a place on that team too. But I don’t know that they have to be the main guys carrying the largest load.

The Cap will rise and there will be room to add more high caliber players like the Schenn, Faulk, Buchnevich trades. If you have enough good players like that, I don’t see why we would think the Blues’ culture will fail.

Everyone is rightfully frustrated right now. And it’s likely to get worse when additional good players get traded. Berube has a responsibility to preserve a winning culture, and that will probably look like an overmatched team playing their asses off but still losing. He has to punch these buttons right now.

I don’t see any of that as an indication that Thomas and Kyrou aren’t top 6 players on a Cup contender. I hope they both grow and get better, but I expect Armstrong to surround them with a lot of other good players who can carry the scoring load, too. Who we say is ‘core’ or not becomes irrelevant when you’re not perusing the trade market.

Once the 2019 team started to put it together, there weren’t any passengers. Distinguishing a Core was not very useful then. This team needs a lot more, but I don’t believe Thomas or Kyrou can’t be part of it.
Specific to my thoughts, I’m talking more about leadership. Of course those 2 can be a part of a quality top-6. But what the team really needs from them now is leadership. And to lead by example.
 
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Stupendous Yappi

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Specific to my thoughts, I’m talking more about leadership. Of course those 2 can be a part of a quality top-6. But what the team really needs from them now is leadership. And to lead by example.
I don’t see anyone filling OReilly’s void there yet. As strange as it sounds, Binnington’s competitive fire is part of the leadership this team needs.

I think Berube’s press conference was a little bit performance art as he goads the young guys (and maybe more so Schenn) to be the main leadership guy. But even if Kyrou is never that guy, he has a place on the team. I don’t know that Patrick Kane is much of a leader. But he’s a scoring threat. The Blues will need guys who are scoring threats.

What they need to find now as the season winds down to its frustrating conclusion, who is going to bring the juice. Is Chychrun that kind of guy? Maybe there are some outside ingredients to address that problem. Maybe it will be ROR again.
 

Beauterham

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Kapanen on waivers. Could be an option to put a claim on for our third line. We need to fill some rosterspots and he could be an interesting reclamation project. His AAV is a bit high at 3.2 million, but he's still only 26 years old and still has some skill in him. If it doesn't work out, his contract runs out after next season. If he DOES work out, we can retain 50% on him at next years trade deadline and get a free pick.

I expect Arizona to put in a claim though, they need to hit the capfloor next season.
 

PocketNines

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"Our best players don't play with any passion, no emotion and no inspiration at all," Berube said. "They don't play inspired hockey. You cannot play in this league without emotion, grit, being inspired. They're getting paid lots of money and they're not doing the job. End of story."
 

STL fan in MN

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I don’t see anyone filling OReilly’s void there yet. As strange as it sounds, Binnington’s competitive fire is part of the leadership this team needs.

I think Berube’s press conference was a little bit performance art as he goads the young guys (and maybe more so Schenn) to be the main leadership guy. But even if Kyrou is never that guy, he has a place on the team. I don’t know that Patrick Kane is much of a leader. But he’s a scoring threat. The Blues will need guys who are scoring threats.

What they need to find now as the season winds down to its frustrating conclusion, who is going to bring the juice. Is Chychrun that kind of guy? Maybe there are some outside ingredients to address that problem. Maybe it will be ROR again.
Yeah, I’d pretty much agree with this. That’s more or less the “Option 1” I laid out above.

Leadership is currently devoid. Either the current guys need to step up or new leaders need to be brought in. Ideally, the answer is both.
 

STL fan in MN

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Kapanen on waivers. Could be an option to put a claim on for our third line. We need to fill some rosterspots and he could be an interesting reclamation project. His AAV is a bit high at 3.2 million, but he's still only 26 years old and still has some skill in him. If it doesn't work out, his contract runs out after next season. If he DOES work out, we can retain 50% on him at next years trade deadline and get a free pick.

I expect Arizona to put in a claim though, they need to hit the capfloor next season.
I’d say no. Kapanen seems like a player that really belongs on a 2nd line…maybe a 3rd line if it’s constructed in a more offense oriented way. But he’s just too costly and too inconsistent IMO. And it’s not like the Blues can be liberal with what they pay guys. The cap crunch of next season when Thomas and Kyrou’s contracts start still exists.
 

PocketNines

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Berube's comments "could not be further from the truth" – Robert Thomas this morning in response

Thomas seemed very clear that he was being called out by Berube for basically having zero heart, intensity, grit or emotion by the way, maybe he hasn't yet read a multiparagraph treatise on what Berube really meant ... ?

 
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BadgersandBlues

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I think all the hand-wringing over Thomas and Kyrou is a little overblown. I think both of them have shown better then what we've seen in the past 4-5 games. No one was complaining about them when we came out of the all-star break and we were putting up 5+ goals a game while going 3-0. During those three games Thomas went 1g 5a for 6p and Kyrou went 2g 4a for 6p. Both played well defensively, with a +3 each in those games.

The team went into a massive funk once ROR/Accari were traded (Kinda shows how important ROR and Accari were compared to Tarasenko). I think the players all felt that they still had a chance to push after the AS break and going 3-0 gave them a lot of confidence - until Army (Rightfully) pulled the rug out from under them.

If this team could win a Cup with Tarasenko, it sure can win a Cup with Kyrou, who is a far more dynamic player then Tarasenko has ever shown. Tarasenko was a one trick pony, (But it was a great trick!) and Kyrou can actually elevate others on his line offensively.

The thing that bugs me about this team is that while I believe Kyrou and Thomas have the ability to play an up-tempo, rushing style of game....the rest of the roster doesn't....yet they still try and play that way. We never seem to generate much of anything of a forecheck anymore, we rarely grind the puck down low, and we never -ever- seem to have second chance attempts. The thing that made us great last season was the ability and confidence to hold the puck in the offensive zone for long stretches at a time - then find a guy who was cutting and open, or once we had suitable traffic towards the middle getting the puck to the net and sniffing for rebounds.

When I watch Boston play, they play a lot the same way as we did last year. We don't play that way anymore, infact, I don't really understand what our plan is at all. I'd like to see lines 2-4 play a harder, chip and chase forechecking/grinding style - and then let the Thomas/Kyrou/whomever line play with a lot more freedom.

And all this goes without saying - but the D is still a mess. I'd like to see Krug AND Faulk moved out - personally I think Faulk is one of the more overrated players we have, and finding a guy who can do what Parayko does is almost impossible in this day and age. But the main issue we keep having is asking Parayko and player X to play literally the hardest defensive minutes in the league. MAYBE Parayko can do that, but he sure can't do it himself, and no one should expect him to. When we were at our best, he had Jay-Bo, a bonafide stud in his own right playing alongside him. Asking Scandella/Mikkola/Leddy/Tucker/whomever to do the same is stupid and has been causing us massive problems. We need far more balance to our defensive pairings in terms of QOC and deployment. This is why I keep banging the drum from Chychrun - a top pairing of him and Parayko would work well imo - we keep giving them the top QOC that Parayko already sees, but we fix the deployment so that Parayko isn't starting every shift trying to defend. Then our second pairing is Leddy/??? (If it's Faulk that's fine I suppose, but I'd rather find a lower cap hit here). I think that pairing will work wonders for Leddy, who's fine as a #4, but being used currently as a #2. The reason I go back to moving Faulk is that imo if we do get Chychrun, that pushes him down to our #3, and I don't think we need to spend 6.5M on our #3 (But if we remove Krug and replace him with Chychrun it becomes reasonable to handle Faulk's caphit until Chychrun needs a raise).

Lots to digest there, bunch of stuff has been banging around in my head these last couple of games.

Oh and one last thing - can we all please dial down the snark around here? I know that's like asking the sun not to rise on an internet board, but let's just try this once. This franchise hasn't been in a position of being legit terrible in almost a decade+. I know it's a new thing for us to lose, but let's do it with some dignity :)

Cheers.
 

Majorityof1

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And all this goes without saying - but the D is still a mess. I'd like to see Krug AND Faulk moved out - personally I think Faulk is one of the more overrated players we have, and finding a guy who can do what Parayko does is almost impossible in this day and age.

You are now my new favorite poster. I luff you. :heart::heart::heart:
 

PocketNines

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I predict that they will be top line, likely non-elite players for the duration of their contracts
Can we get some more specifics? Anyone can say "likely." Anyone can be accountable to "likely." I am getting blasted so utterly disingenuously by you this morning but you don't have the ability to make a clear prediction with concomitant future accountability beyond "likely."
 

Frenzy31

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LOL wait ... that Berube presser last night was my "narrative" ... I hope you know that when a person lies to himself in life it has negative consequences.

I don't care if I am the only one here who gets that these two are not the guys, because they are not the guys. I don't think I'm the only one here, but it wouldn't matter either way.

I want them to be amazing players that lead the Blues to more great seasons and lots of winning. I know that when I cut against the grain, the first thing people like to do is call it an agenda. I had an agenda when I was like uh guys, Chris Stewart absolutely sucks and we should get rid of him, I had an agenda when I said Ryan Miller would be a terrible trade idea, I had an agenda when I said Pietrangelo leaving ended the window, I had an agenda when I first came back here and said Krug is a 4-5 on a contender and Brian absolutely lit me up for how ridiculous that was and we went toe to toe, and sure enough I have an agenda to say Kyrou and Thomas are not the guys. Or maybe I don't have an agenda other than seeing the Blues build the best winning team they can and I am not afraid to say uncomfortable truth enough in advance and I'm willing to brawl with people who come at me for it.
When Barby, Schenn and others looked like crap yesterday - but it is a lack of leadership from the kids. Can't build around those two... but we could build around ROR - who looked like dog crap a good chunk of the year. Where is the strong leadership, because I haven't seen it all year.

But, you still have not answered my question. Where were the team leaders all year? At best we have been up and down, but there are long stretches of time when this team looks lost or low effort. That isn't just two guys. That absolutely included ROR, Tarasenko....

The only guy I felt that really brought it night in and night out was Acciari. Only guy I am going to really miss from the effort perspective.

This team on paper should have been playoff team. Instead we were a yo yo great run of games and then a long run of junk.
 
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bleedblue1223

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And all this goes without saying - but the D is still a mess. I'd like to see Krug AND Faulk moved out - personally I think Faulk is one of the more overrated players we have,
Faulk is our Schenn on defense. Solid enough all-around players, don't particularly excel in anything specific, and usually don't receive much criticism.
 
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PocketNines

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PocketNines

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Guys, it's possible to decide to address the heart of the matter without exhaustively citing all the ancillary components. This is a thing people can do.

It's important to go right at the heart of the matter because if you can't be honest about the heart of the matter you can get lost in a maze of side explanations. Start with the heart of the matter. This is an exceptional rule for living one's life, as well.

The heart of the matter is that the core that is going to be in STL for a long time is badly flawed. Berube sees it so clearly that he was willing to brutally call out their character in public. That happened. It's not a narrative I created regardless of whether you come here to state that it is. And what I am saying is that until this is faced head-on, it's going to compound itself.
 
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