Prospect Info: 2022 - 1st OA] Juraj Slafkovsky (LW) Part 4

[Adam Michaels]

I don't think it makes a difference.

He's playing roughly the same amount of minutes in the top 6 as he was in the bottom 6.

Yes, his TOI is pretty much the same. But the situations he's in has changed. Meaning that with Evans and Pez, he's starting most of his shifts in the D zone. Whereas now, he is more often in the O-zone. Now he's able to express himself more offensively, playing with linemates that will create more offensively also.

Maybe they would have kept him in the NHL even if he was on the 4th line. I think that if he was still there, he'd be heading to the WJC where he would be on the top line and playing in every situation. But now that he's in the Top-6 in the NHL, he's better served staying in Montreal.

 

[417]

Yes, his TOI is pretty much the same. But the situations he's in has changed. Meaning that with Evans and Pez, he's starting most of his shifts in the D zone. Whereas now, he is more often in the O-zone. Now he's able to express himself more offensively, playing with linemates that will create more offensively also.

Sure but there's still a huge learning opportunity in that that IMO, is worth more than anything he could accomplish at the WJC, especially given the fact he's already experienced it.

He's an NHL player and has looked like an NHL player from game 1. I think that's why they're not sending him to the WJC.

Maybe they would have kept him in the NHL even if he was on the 4th line. I think that if he was still there, he'd be heading to the WJC where he would be on the top line and playing in every situation. But now that he's in the Top-6 in the NHL, he's better served staying in Montreal.

Fair enough...I don't personally even think it was a consideration.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes, his TOI is pretty much the same. But the situations he's in has changed. Meaning that with Evans and Pez, he's starting most of his shifts in the D zone. Whereas now, he is more often in the O-zone. Now he's able to express himself more offensively, playing with linemates that will create more offensively also.

Maybe they would have kept him in the NHL even if he was on the 4th line. I think that if he was still there, he'd be heading to the WJC where he would be on the top line and playing in every situation. But now that he's in the Top-6 in the NHL, he's better served staying in Montreal.

50% corsi for with close to 50/50 zone starts. I get the feeling some fans want to see him produce more offensively and spoil him in a top 6 role and more offensive zone starts.

Personally, I think points will come later. Right now, it's building his development foundation to be sound and then we go from there with more ice time and offensive usage.

Agreed. He's better with MSL in Montreal. AHL is not a be all end all solution for everyone

 

[SlafySZN]

50% corsi for with close to 50/50 zone starts. I get the feeling some fans want to see him produce more offensively and spoil him in a top 6 role and more offensive zone starts.

Personally, I think points will come later. Right now, it's building his development foundation to be sound and then we go from there with more ice time and offensive usage.

Agreed. He's better with MSL in Montreal. AHL is not a be all end all solution for everyone

He has 3 points in his last 4 games since he’s playing in the top 6 so if he stays there he’ll keep producing even more.

 

[Skip Bayless]

I have trouble believing that they didn’t have a skills coach before. What did they do before if a player had something to adjust to his game? Did the assistants step in? Did they expect players to take care working on issues on their own in the off season? It seems almost unbelievable… You have batting and pitching coaches in pro baseball but they couldn’t pay for a shooting coach in the NHL?

I speculate that it mostly fell to the assistant coaches and the players themselves to do it in a non-formalized manner. But I think with the position more formalized, Nicholas really takes the time individually and goes to the players and presents the issue with data so that the players are more receptive.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He has 3 points in his last 4 games since he’s playing in the top 6 so if he stays there he’ll keep producing even more.

Don't be fooled. He's playing top 9 role at the moment (not 4th line). Anderson is playing top 6 minutes at around 16. Slaf is around 12-14 range recently. A little bump from his previous 8-12 range.

 

[ReHabs]

Rushed is relative though.

Rushed for fans/media who need instant success and production to validate or alleviate their own insecurities about a draft pick? Sure.

Rushed for an organization committed to developing and looking at the bigger picture? Nope.

Just saying, I seen folks be a lot more critical for less.

Never called Poehling a bust?

You're not new here, are you? lol

Most Habs fans didn't call Poehling a bust less than 24 months following his draft. I don't and wouldn't call anyone a bust in that circumstance either -- not sure why everyone keeps implying that I'd call anyone a bust. I'm still rooting for Kotkaniemi's success.

Anyway, it's undeniable to say that a player who was immediately following the draft called up to the NHL was not rushed. It's a matter of time -- the player will have spent zero time in development or otherwise outside the NHL between their draft day and playing in the NHL.

If the player is McDavid or Matthews, having had dominated in their draft year league season, then they're exactly where they belonged. If the player is Kotkaniemi or Slafkovsky, then they're rushed into the NHL because they weren't too good for AHL/CHL/Euro Leagues/NCAA etc. It has nothing to do with fan expectations.

I don't think Thompson was rushed either, but I really struggle to imagine that you wouldn't be absolutely hammering our front office for not leaving him in the AHL if Tage Thompson was putting up 9 points in 41 games and then 12 points in 65 games in his first two NHL seasons for Montreal after only 20P during his first 46 AHL games.

No, it is not. Rushed does not mean "player is in the NHL and not playing top 6 minutes". It means in the NHL before they are capable of learning and taking risks in the NHL and/or being coached to play an oversimplified game by a team desperately trying to win games.

If Slafkovsky is being "rushed" this year then he and 98% of draft year players in European leagues were also being "rushed" in their draft years, as this is once again exactly how European clubs routinely develop their young players. It doesn't happen in the NHL very often because most D+1 players simply do not have the tools to physically handle the NHL and make meaningful plays while they learn/develop, but Slafkovsky does. It's really that simple to me.

I don't think it's wishful thinking. Thompson is a great player but he's not some generational megastar we can't possibly expect our guys to match up to. 15% of his points and 23% of his goals this season are from last night, which is in no way meant to diminish his play other than to say that Thompson is not going to sustain his current 120 point pace. He's a unique outlier that I don't think tells us very much other than that top-level pro sports are highly competitive and sometimes weird things happen and guys figure out technical hiccups and unlock their upside later in their careers.

He's 25 years old, I agree that the balance of probabilities suggest that it is not wise to expect or project Slafkovsky to reach the level of 22-23 Thompson, but we're still comparing an 18 year old rookie to a 25 year old in his prime with six years of pro experience, there is so much development time between the two that I think it's strange to treat Thompson as a completely unrealistic standard that Slafkovsky could never possibly approach.

Again with the Thompson -- no I wouldn't criticise the Habs if their 26OA was coming along slowly. Please stick to reality and not hypotheticals. Slaf is a top10 draftee who they thrust into the NHL, of course I disagree with that (given our history, I'm shocked more of you are so casual about this) and he's not thriving whatsoever.

You keep saying Slaf is handling the NHL but I don't see it, in fact I cannot disagree more. He's meant to be a top6 player not a grinder, he's barely holding on for dear life as it is.

I don't care about Thompson (other than being impressed by his season and happy for him) and only responded to the notion of comparing Slaf to him. I otherwise agree with @Lafleurs Guy that he's an outlier and not worth bring up in the discussion.

For the record my upside prediction for Slaf is maybe Rick Nash (who was rushed by a similarly bad organization) but my downside prediction for Slaf is J. Anderson or J. Armia.

I think I want to see Slaf make passes, shoot more, and make use of his linemates. For that he needs to have opportunities on the ice. For that he needs good minutes and to make the most of them. I think he's in a dangerous position but I have acknowledged his progress from RC/TC/first few games. Maybe he'll turn the corner or (much likelier) he will continue to struggle because he's not capable of making plays at this speed.

 

[SlafySZN]

Don't be fooled. He's playing top 9 role at the moment (not 4th line). Anderson is playing top 6 minutes at around 16. Slaf is around 12-14 range recently. A little bump from his previous 8-12 range.

like someone said, it’s not the minutes but more with who he is playing with! Minutes will increase soon enough i think.

 

[SlafySZN]

Most Habs fans didn't call Poehling a bust less than 24 months following his draft. I don't and wouldn't call anyone a bust in that circumstance either -- not sure why everyone keeps implying that I'd call anyone a bust. I'm still rooting for Kotkaniemi's success.

Anyway, it's undeniable to say that a player who was immediately following the draft called up to the NHL was not rushed. It's a matter of time -- the player will have spent zero time in development or otherwise outside the NHL between their draft day and playing in the NHL.

If the player is McDavid or Matthews, having had dominated in their draft year league season, then they're exactly where they belonged. If the player is Kotkaniemi or Slafkovsky, then they're rushed into the NHL because they weren't too good for AHL/CHL/Euro Leagues/NCAA etc. It has nothing to do with fan expectations.


Again with the Thompson -- no I wouldn't criticise the Habs if their 26OA was coming along slowly. Please stick to reality and not hypotheticals. Slaf is a top10 draftee who they thrust into the NHL, of course I disagree with that (given our history, I'm shocked more of you are so casual about this) and he's not thriving whatsoever.

You keep saying Slaf is handling the NHL but I don't see it, in fact I cannot disagree more. He's meant to be a top6 player not a grinder, he's barely holding on for dear life as it is.

I don't care about Thompson (other than being impressed by his season and happy for him) and only responded to the notion of comparing Slaf to him. I otherwise agree with @Lafleurs Guy that he's an outlier and not worth bring up in the discussion.

For the record my upside prediction for Slaf is maybe Rick Nash (who was rushed by a similarly bad organization) but my downside prediction for Slaf is J. Anderson or J. Armia.

I think I want to see Slaf make passes, shoot more, and make use of his linemates. For that he needs to have opportunities on the ice. For that he needs good minutes and to make the most of them. I think he's in a dangerous position but I have acknowledged his progress from RC/TC/first few games. Maybe he'll turn the corner or (much likelier) he will continue to struggle because he's not capable of making plays at this speed.

You couldn’t be more wrong.

He is not barely holding on for dear life.

He is 100% capable of making plays and already did many times.

Oh and he is already better than Anderson and Armia, so…

 

[Habs Halifax]

like someone said, it’s not the minutes but more with who he is playing with! Minutes will increase soon enough i think.

Talent does need to play with talent but he is raw at age 18. I don't have a problem one bit on how they are managing him. He's ready when he is ready and that is MSL's job. I'm staying out of it and focusing on his puck management, vision, and intangibles in the trenches... regardless of who he is playing with.

 

[Habs Halifax]

You couldn’t be more wrong.

He is not barely holding on for dear life.

He is 100% capable of making plays and already did many times.

Oh and he is already better than Anderson and Armia, so…

Agreed. Those taking the Pessimistic approach are playing the cheap game. Walking with their head down and trying to play fan hero if the player disappoints while they dwell on anything negative that happens.

Whoever thinks that the player ends up better "for sure" cause he goes to the AHL is out of their minds. Slaf will be who Slaf will be regardless of how he is managed. Better development management just gets him there faster than bad development management. KK was a bad pick... you can't develop that into gold. Slaf appears to be a good pick so far and we just need to let the process play out.

Both are important but Scouting/Drafting is more important than Development. Pick was made so only time will tell. Let him develop in piece FFS. If anybody can't see the modest learning curve in the positive direction, they are not comprehending this situation very well and they have AHL obsession clouding their judgement.

 

[Habs Halifax]

he's barely holding on for dear life as it is.

I can respect your approach to not pump him up as a gullible fan but don't fall in the exaggeration trap please.

Barely hold on for dear life as it is? Come on man.

 

[Kennerback]

Talent does need to play with talent but he is raw at age 18. I don't have a problem one bit on how they are managing him. He's ready when he is ready and that is MSL's job. I'm staying out of it and focusing on his puck management, vision, and intangibles in the trenches... regardless of who he is playing with.

I think he plays better say with Monahan than Gallagher, but I agree they should play him the way they feel best. They’re the pros. However, I do like to know why they make one decision instead of another. For example, I was getting confused (recently) why they weren’t moving him up in the Top-9. It seems the injuries forced their hand.

 

[Jaaanosik]

... he will continue to struggle because he's not capable of making plays at this speed.

Are you watching games actually?

Edit: I see more posters above my post pointed out the same thing.
You either are not watching games and you are making made up statements or you do not understand hockey... or pushing some strange agenda.

 

[417]

Most Habs fans didn't call Poehling a bust less than 24 months following his draft. I don't and wouldn't call anyone a bust in that circumstance either -- not sure why everyone keeps implying that I'd call anyone a bust. I'm still rooting for Kotkaniemi's success.

You should check out the Poehling draft thread, it's a doozy.

Also, I never implied that you called anyone a bust.

Anyway, it's undeniable to say that a player who was immediately following the draft called up to the NHL was not rushed. It's a matter of time -- the player will have spent zero time in development or otherwise outside the NHL between their draft day and playing in the NHL.

Depends on the circumstance, I don't think you can have a blanket statement like that.

If the player is McDavid or Matthews, having had dominated in their draft year league season, then they're exactly where they belonged. If the player is Kotkaniemi or Slafkovsky, then they're rushed into the NHL because they weren't too good for AHL/CHL/Euro Leagues/NCAA etc. It has nothing to do with fan expectations.

I think it has a lot to do with it....like it or not, but most fans just don't have the patience for the development route a guy like Tage Thompson took. Most fans want instant gratification.

You can see it in this thread where people are suggesting Slafkovsky was rushed and they keep pointing to his point totals as an indicator that he should be in the AHL or back in Europe, or even worst, the CHL (gulp!).

I disagree that Slafkovsky was/is being rushed, he's progressed tremendously since day 1 of camp and he's more than holding his own in the NHL. There is no other level that can replicate what he's learned the last 3 months.

Not the AHL, not the WJC or the OHL.

Production (points), does not necessarily = development.

As an example...Joshua Roy tore it up last year in the Q, led the league in scoring.

Because of NHL/CHL rules, he couldn't play in the AHL, so he's back in the Q and while he's playing and producing well.

Is he a better player today, than he was at this point last year?

Debatable.

 

[ReHabs]

I can respect your approach to not pump him up as a gullible fan but don't fall in the exaggeration trap please.

Barely hold on for dear life as it is? Come on man.

You caught me. That was exaggeration - mea culpa.

Are you watching games actually?

Edit: I see more posters above my post pointed out the same thing.
You either are not watching games and you are making made up statements or you do not understand hockey... or pushing some strange agenda.

I am and I do. I went off too much on the rhetorical flourish -- but I stand by my point that he's not thriving or making plays right now.

You should check out the Poehling draft thread, it's a doozy.

Also, I never implied that you called anyone a bust.

Depends on the circumstance, I don't think you can have a blanket statement like that.

I think it has a lot to do with it....like it or not, but most fans just don't have the patience for the development route a guy like Tage Thompson took. Most fans want instant gratification.

You can see it in this thread where people are suggesting Slafkovsky was rushed and they keep pointing to his point totals as an indicator that he should be in the AHL or back in Europe, or even worst, the CHL (gulp!).

I disagree that Slafkovsky was/is being rushed, he's progressed tremendously since day 1 of camp and he's more than holding his own in the NHL. There is no other level that can replicate what he's learned the last 3 months.

Not the AHL, not the WJC or the OHL.

Production (points), does not necessarily = development.

As an example...Joshua Roy tore it up last year in the Q, led the league in scoring.

Because of NHL/CHL rules, he couldn't play in the AHL, so he's back in the Q and while he's playing and producing well.

Is he a better player today, than he was at this point last year?

Debatable.

Well, I think his point totals are downstream from the problem: he is not top6 NHL material right now. And I don't think his progress has been 'tremendous', it's been fine but not nearly enough to play top6 minutes regularly. I don't want instant gratification either -- I wanted him elsewhere (AHL, CHL, whatever -- no one knows where would be optimal) because I didn't think he'd succeed in the NHL right after getting drafted. Not with his limitations.

Roy isn't a comparable player, he's not a high-end prospect. It's not fair to bring him up and you know it.

 

[BaseballCoach]

You caught me. That was exaggeration - mea culpa.


I am and I do. I went off too much on the rhetorical flourish -- but I stand by my point that he's not thriving or making plays right now.


Well, I think his point totals are downstream from the problem: he is not top6 NHL material right now. And I don't think his progress has been 'tremendous', it's been fine but not nearly enough to play top6 minutes regularly. I don't want instant gratification either -- I wanted him elsewhere (AHL, CHL, whatever -- no one knows where would be optimal) because I didn't think he'd succeed in the NHL right after getting drafted. Not with his limitations.

Roy isn't a comparable player, he's not a high-end prospect. It's not fair to bring him up and you know it.

But Slaf IS succeeding, as a middle six winger right now. Your bar is too high, too soon. He is maybe not yet ready to be put out with one minute left and a 1 goal lead, but that is hardly the criteria to judge whether he is succeeding enough to be in the league.

I am fairly convinced that if we had sent Slaf anywhere else this season, his ultimate ready-for-top-6-NHL date would be later than it will be now.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I am and I do. I went off too much on the rhetorical flourish -- but I stand by my point that he's not thriving or making plays right now.

What is the units of measure for thriving?
He does make plays. Are you watching games? All of them?

 

[SlafySZN]

What is the units of measure for thriving?
He does make plays. Are you watching games? All of them?

This guy won’t ever see the positive, he has been negative all summer and since the start of the season. He decided Slaf wasn’t gonna be good because of his points total in liiga, now he’s not ready to play in the NHL because he’s not the player he’ll be in his prime AT 18.

It’s kinda exhausting to read all the time in this thread.

 

[ReHabs]

But Slaf IS succeeding, as a middle six winger right now. Your bar is too high. jhe is maybe not yet ready to be put out with one minute left and a 1 goal lead, but that is hardly the criteria to judge whether he is succeeding enouygh to be in the league.

i am fairly convinced that if we had sent Slaf anywhere else this seaon, his ultimate ready-for-top-6-NHL date would be later than it will be now.

I accept your argument. It could be that I'm expecting too much and the NHL is the best place for him to develop. If there are quantifiable metrics for success I'd be happy to track them with you and see where we get.

We'll see in c. 20 games if he's progressed any more at that higher level of performance (eg. making plays, being a relevant player on the ice when he's on, etc.) or not. I hope he is, because that would be great encouragement for everybody.

 

[417]

Well, I think his point totals are downstream from the problem: he is not top6 NHL material right now. And I don't think his progress has been 'tremendous', it's been fine but not nearly enough to play top6 minutes regularly. I don't want instant gratification either -- I wanted him elsewhere (AHL, CHL, whatever -- no one knows where would be optimal) because I didn't think he'd succeed in the NHL right after getting drafted. Not with his limitations.

Well how you or I use a particular word to describe his progress so far is up for debate.

But what I don’t think can be debated he’s a better player then what we saw at rookie camp when people were ready to jump off a ledge.

I’d also say he is succeeding in the NHL given his age and current role.

But that’s me.

Roy isn't a comparable player, he's not a high-end prospect. It's not fair to bring him up and you know it.

I wasn’t comparing him, I was just making reference to a player who one could argue is stagnating in a league where he’s already proven he could dominate.

 

[417]

I accept your argument. It could be that I'm expecting too much and the NHL is the best place for him to develop. If there are quantifiable metrics for success I'd be happy to track them with you and see where we get.

We'll see in c. 20 games if he's progressed any more at that higher level of performance (eg. making plays, being a relevant player on the ice when he's on, etc.) or not. I hope he is, because that would be great encouragement for everybody.

I don’t know many players who are “relevant or make plays” playing 11 mins a night.

But that doesn’t mean that those 11 mins aren’t meaningful in terms of development.

It does really depend on ones expectation.

 

[FF de Mars]

I accept your argument. It could be that I'm expecting too much and the NHL is the best place for him to develop. If there are quantifiable metrics for success I'd be happy to track them with you and see where we get.

We'll see in c. 20 games if he's progressed any more at that higher level of performance (eg. making plays, being a relevant player on the ice when he's on, etc.) or not. I hope he is, because that would be great encouragement for everybody.

He's making Anderson look good, notice how Josh is scoring more goals since he's playing with Slaf. I think he brings a level of fluidity through puck possession, this "brand name" puck possession game is likely to reach another level at some point. Moreover, as Renaud Lavoie mentionned, and maybe this is off topic, Shane Wright lost most of his intensity as soon as he scored his goal; meanwhile Slaf has proven good enough consistency, which will only get better once he's used to the waters of the NHL.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Again with the Thompson -- no I wouldn't criticise the Habs if their 26OA was coming along slowly. Please stick to reality and not hypotheticals.

Fair enough.

You keep saying Slaf is handling the NHL but I don't see it, in fact I cannot disagree more. He's meant to be a top6 player not a grinder, he's barely holding on for dear life as it is.

I don't think he's been incredible or thriving, but barely holding on for dear life is a long shot away from what I see in his play personally. He looks like a good bottom-six forward to me right now, which is a perfectly acceptable level of play for an 18 year old rookie in the NHL.

Truly I find the fact he's playing like a good bottom sixer despite there being a lot of raw elements in his game very encouraging. I really am not particularly concerned about his defensive zone and his off the puck positioning, those things are low-hanging fruit he can fix as he develops experience, and he's still implicating himself in the play better than any of our vet bottom sixers despite having a lot of lost puppy moments.

 

[ReHabs]

He's making Anderson look good, notice how Josh is scoring more goals since he's playing with Slaf. I think he brings a level of fluidity through puck possession, this "brand name" puck possession game is likely to reach another level at some point. Moreover, as Renaud Lavoie mentionned, and maybe this is off topic, Shane Wright lost most of his intensity as soon as he scored his goal; meanwhile Slaf has proven good enough consistency, which will only get better once he's used to the waters of the NHL.

Gagnon said almost the same thing. It's a bit pathetic the Habs Media guys take it upon themselves to do pro-Habs PR to this extent.

Slaf's just a kid, Wright's just a kid. We all want their success (I want both of them to succeed -- I'm a nasty, mean old guy like that) -- I don't understand the need for Habs fans to trash Wright... but I digress.

As for your comment yeah Slaf is definitely skilled with the puck, maybe he will inject some sustained fluidity to his new line but that assist he got on JA's goal was not a real assist. Let's be fair now.