2021 Off Season Discussion Thread

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ezcreepin

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If Stevens plays we are in big trouble.

MacMac and Joshua are ahead. Shame we let go Poganski. Really liked him and he didn't get real chance to prove himself. Not shocked if he plays in Jets 4th line at start of season.
I mean unless you're watching a lot of the AHL this season, I probably prefer Stevens over Poganski. I personally think they are redundant, and that's probably why they let Poganski go. As far as production, Stevens has and will outperform Poganski probably at every level, and if Stevens has developed a stronger 2-way game, he will most certainly last longer in the NHL.
 

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I mean unless you're watching a lot of the AHL this season, I probably prefer Stevens over Poganski. I personally think they are redundant, and that's probably why they let Poganski go. As far as production, Stevens has and will outperform Poganski probably at every level, and if Stevens has developed a stronger 2-way game, he will most certainly last longer in the NHL.
One thing is for sure if Stevens skating speed is same level what previous year there is chance he'll stay career AHL'er and won't play any games at NHL.
 

kimzey59

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If Stevens plays we are in big trouble.

MacMac and Joshua are ahead. Shame we let go Poganski. Really liked him and he didn't get real chance to prove himself. Not shocked if he plays in Jets 4th line at start of season.

Not sure I agree with you on Stevens. I would have said the same thing about Joshua last year, and yet he looked pretty serviceable when he got the chance.

With guys like Stevens it’s more about defensive play and being physical; and I am not sure where he is in that regards given the limited viewing last year. Admittedly, though, there are some guys above him on the depth chart.
 
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Not sure I agree with you on Stevens. I would have said the same thing about Joshua last year, and yet he looked pretty serviceable when he got the chance.

With guys like Stevens it’s more about defensive play and being physical; and I am not sure where he is in that regards given the limited viewing last year. Admittedly, though, there are some guys above him on the depth chart.
What I saw on him. He was lacking on speed. So slow compare vs others. He reminded so much of Brouwer speed. Couldn't play any transition game, 'cus got buried on leg speed.

My view is st scrimmages so it could lie, idk.

But yeah I stand if he plays up, he has either suddenly fix his skating or we are lacking of bottom players. I lean on latter one.

And about Joshua. I would be more then fine him playing 4th line center. He has skills at FO dot. How he played he wasn't all over the place had understanding of position awareness and isn't slowest guy on ice no matter how tall he is + have physical aspect in his game. Maybe even PK material if giving opportunity.
 
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Brian39

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Here is Tarasenko's With/Without on ice stats per 60 with Stastny: Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

3.11 GF without vs 2.64 together. Worth noting that Tarasenko was used in an offensive role no matter what, but not quite as much when he was with Stastny. His xGF% was better with Stastny than without and the line's on-ice shooting percentage was about 2 points worse with Stastny than when Tarasenko was out with others. Certainly supports the argument that Tarasenko was less capable of finishing the types of plays made by Stastny than he was others.

However, Tarasenko's career best came when his center was about the purest "playmaker" he ever played with. Here are the same types of stats but with Lehtera: Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

3.27 GF per 60 vs 2.64 without (strangely identical to his on ice scoring rate with Stastny even though there are about 500 minutes where he wasn't on the ice with either). The xGF% is about half a point worse when Tarasenko was on the ice with Lehtera than without, but the on ice shooting percentage was a whopping 3 points higher when they were on the ice together than when they were apart. These aren't small samples. This is a 3 year sample size where 56.7% of Tarasenko's even strength minutes came with Lehtera. We can't just act like this was a half season hot streak. It's the 3 best statistical seasons of Tarasenko's career and he was overwhelmingly better with Lehtera than without. Lehtera lost a step in his final year here and the magic ended. But it was a hell of a lot more than a half-season run.

I vehemently disagree that he doesn't benefit from a quality playmaker. He was a 37, 40 and 39 goal guy with Lehtera and then was a 33 goal guy in back to back seasons after Lehtera left. His with/without splits with Schwartz are nearly identical from 2017/18-2019/20 (2.95 vs 2.93 on ice GF per 60 ) and his on ice GF per 60 with Schenn isn't as good as it was with Lehtera. He hasn't played tons of minutes with ROR, but those two dominate when they are together (3.41 on ice GF per 60). IN his time as a blue, his best has come playing with Lehtera and ROR. Those happen to be the best two playmakers he's played with (Stas is a better overall player than Lehtera ever was, but Lehtera's playmaking skills were better than Stastny's).

Edit: Honestly, digging into these with/without stats just made me appreciate ROR more than ever. Perron is a negative possession player without ROR and his on-ice GF per 60 goes from 2.11 without ROR to 2.79 with ROR. If Tarasenko is here for camp, I want to see Perron-ROR-Tarasenko to start the year. Break them up for defensive matchups against elite top lines, but let those 3 run wild 75% of the time in the regular season. ROR is good enough defensively to check half the league's top lines without much help and Perron is decent enough defensively to help in that role. Let's see how many Tarasenko can pump into the net with ROR feeding two shooters on either side of him.

Perron-ROR-Tarasenko
Saad-Schenn-Buch
Sanford-Thomas-Kyrou
Mac-Barby-Kostin
Clifford

Let Sanford play the defensive/possession role he played in the top 6 against lesser competition on the 3rd line and give Thomas/Kyrou the green light to get creative in the offensive zone. Shelter them a bit and rely on Saad-Schenn-Buch to play a lot of defense with the ability to drive possession and capitalize on chances with 3 well-above-average shots. 4th line is a bit of a catch all filler line until Sunny is back and you can run a relentless Barby-Sunny-Kostin forecheck machine.

Better yet, sign Bozak to a $1M base salary deal with some GP bonuses, make him the 3LW, slide Sanford into the 4LW, make Mac your 13th F and waive Clifford. A man can dream, right?
 
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Bluesnatic27

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Honestly, digging into these with/without stats just made me appreciate ROR more than ever. Perron is a negative possession player without ROR and his on-ice GF per 60 goes from 2.11 without ROR to 2.79 with ROR. If Tarasenko is here for camp, I want to see Perron-ROR-Tarasenko to start the year. Break them up for defensive matchups against elite top lines, but let those 3 run wild 75% of the time in the regular season. ROR is good enough defensively to check half the league's top lines without much help and Perron is decent enough defensively to help in that role. Let's see how many Tarasenko can pump into the net with ROR feeding two shooters on either side of him.
Yes! Someone finally said it!

I always thought that Tarasenko was at his best when next to O'Reilly. The time they were together was some pretty darn exciting hockey to watch from them. The issue was the team was losing at the time, although I never thought it was because of those two. I'm not implying Berube did something wrong breaking them up because that coincided with the Blues starting to win (could easily be wrong on that though). I can understand not to change something that's working. But I hoped to see a Perron - O'Reilly - Tarasenko line for a long while now.
 

Reality Czech

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Yes! Someone finally said it!

I always thought that Tarasenko was at his best when next to O'Reilly. The time they were together was some pretty darn exciting hockey to watch from them. The issue was the team was losing at the time, although I never thought it was because of those two. I'm not implying Berube did something wrong breaking them up because that coincided with the Blues starting to win (could easily be wrong on that though). I can understand not to change something that's working. But I hoped to see a Perron - O'Reilly - Tarasenko line for a long while now.

I would certainly be open to that possibility, and if he's going to find his game again then who better to play with? I never felt like ROR and Tarasenko clicked together in the limited time they were one the same line but I admit it was a long time ago and I don't recall specifics. However, ROR is such a good player I'm willing to bet that every player would perform better playing alongside him.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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It would also be hard for Vlad's camp to argue that the Blues are hurting his trade value if he's on a line with ROR and Perron. He'd be getting primo opportunities.
 

Blueline2757

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Dom at The Athletic posted his "team contract efficiency" rankings going into next season. It doesn't include goalies or players on ELC's.

He ranked the Blues 20th (down from 14th last season). He projects 5 of 12 forwards to provide surplus value (in order: Perron, Kyrou, Buchnevich, ROR and Sanford) and 3 of 7 defensemen (in order: Walman, Bortuzzo and Krug's next 3 seasons).

Faulk's deal showed up as one of the 15 worst contracts in the league yesterday, and Schenn's deal is creeping ever closer to that range. It also projects Saad and Scandella to provide a moderate level of negative surplus value over the life of their contracts.

It's not gospel, but it does reflect how the Blues are aging and how misguided some of these contracts appear at this point in time.
 

bleedblue1223

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While I don't disagree with all of his assessment, I do think we tend to overrate or overvalue his work and Pronman's work at The Athletic. Just glancing at some other teams, he has Carlo at negative value on every year of his contract, which is a head-scratching take. Petro is negative in every year, which similar to Schenn and Faulk, I just don't agree with. Those deals will age poorly, but they are fine in current year. Hamilton is a positive in every year, which doesn't make sense.

I think we all agree on how our situation will look 4ish years from now though, sooner if Parayko situation goes bad.
 

Brockon

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Dom at The Athletic posted his "team contract efficiency" rankings going into next season. It doesn't include goalies or players on ELC's.

He ranked the Blues 20th (down from 14th last season). He projects 5 of 12 forwards to provide surplus value (in order: Perron, Kyrou, Buchnevich, ROR and Sanford) and 3 of 7 defensemen (in order: Walman, Bortuzzo and Krug's next 3 seasons).

Faulk's deal showed up as one of the 15 worst contracts in the league yesterday, and Schenn's deal is creeping ever closer to that range. It also projects Saad and Scandella to provide a moderate level of negative surplus value over the life of their contracts.

It's not gospel, but it does reflect how the Blues are aging and how misguided some of these contracts appear at this point in time.

I'm not sure why Krug gets the benefit of the doubt here... Krug is older, signed to an identical deal and didn't perform as well as Faulk did in terms of all around usage last season...

I think we all expect the last 2+ seasons of both contracts to look pretty awful, but for one to project surplus value over the next few seasons and the other to be a net negative now strikes me as odd.
 

bleedblue1223

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I'm not sure why Krug gets the benefit of the doubt here... Krug is older, signed to an identical deal and didn't perform as well as Faulk did in terms of all around usage last season...

I think we all expect the last 2+ seasons of both contracts to look pretty awful, but for one to project surplus value over the next few seasons and the other to be a net negative now strikes me as odd.
Krug's offense outweighs the negatives. It's silly to grade them both on an all around scale, when Krug isn't an all around defenseman. Krug had an 82 game pace of 52 points, but HF Blues would make you think he would've had about 30.
 
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Brockon

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Krug's offense outweighs the negatives. It's silly to grade them both on an all around scale, when Krug isn't an all around defenseman. Krug had an 82 game pace of 52 points, but HF Blues would make you think he would've had about 30.

Faulk played at a 37p pace in all roles and was undeniably our best dman last year. I'm not saying I like the player or the contract...

But when we needed a top pairing Dman Faulk stepped up all season. Playoffs, less so - but without his play in the regular season, we don't make the playoffs.
 

bleedblue1223

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Faulk played at a 37p pace in all roles and was undeniably our best dman last year. I'm not saying I like the player or the contract...

But when we needed a top pairing Dman Faulk stepped up all season. Playoffs, less so - but without his play in the regular season, we don't make the playoffs.
I think we sort of agree. If I was doing it, I think both give fair returns on their deals now, and will be negative near the end. Dom is wrong to have Faulk be negative in every season.
 
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Brian39

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I've lost a lot of respect for Dom's model over the last few days, because it is all over the map.

Parayko is a $5M player while Krug is projected to average out as a $6.3M player over the life of his deal (and is currently worth more than his $6.5M AAV).

Sunny is a $1.7M player under his model while Bortz is a $1.8M player. Sanford is a $3.1M player

MacMac is apparently $500k worse than a replacement-level league minimum player and Scandella is a below replacement-level league minimum player.

Looking around the league, pretty much anyone who plays a defensive role takes a massive pounding from his model. I genuinely can't figure out how Drew Doughty was a $3.8M player last year (and is projected to be a bottom pair guy next year) while Krug is close to a $7M D man. They had shockingly similar numbers this year in the same division. Krug had 4 more even strength points and 2 fewer overall points. Krug was an expected -3.2 while Doughty was a +0.5, Both had good possession metrics with Krug having a small but not insignificant edge. However, Krug started off in the offensive zone 58% of the time compared to 53% for Doughty and Doughty was more consistently out there against a better quality of competition. I'm fine if you want to say that Krug was a touch better, but he is worth more than $6.5M and DOughty was less than $4M? No clue how that happens.

Makar is a $16M player in his model, which is fair since his "valuation" is based purely on output and not really the real-world limits that exist. However, D Toews is a $10.6M guy on average over the next 3 years and Girard is a $9.5M guy for the next 6. Come on now.

I ultimately agree that our contract efficiency isn't great, but Dom's model seems to have been crushed by the weird COVID schedule. It's all over the place.
 

Celtic Note

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I've lost a lot of respect for Dom's model over the last few days, because it is all over the map.

Parayko is a $5M player while Krug is projected to average out as a $6.3M player over the life of his deal (and is currently worth more than his $6.5M AAV).

Sunny is a $1.7M player under his model while Bortz is a $1.8M player. Sanford is a $3.1M player

MacMac is apparently $500k worse than a replacement-level league minimum player and Scandella is a below replacement-level league minimum player.

Looking around the league, pretty much anyone who plays a defensive role takes a massive pounding from his model. I genuinely can't figure out how Drew Doughty was a $3.8M player last year (and is projected to be a bottom pair guy next year) while Krug is close to a $7M D man. They had shockingly similar numbers this year in the same division. Krug had 4 more even strength points and 2 fewer overall points. Krug was an expected -3.2 while Doughty was a +0.5, Both had good possession metrics with Krug having a small but not insignificant edge. However, Krug started off in the offensive zone 58% of the time compared to 53% for Doughty and Doughty was more consistently out there against a better quality of competition. I'm fine if you want to say that Krug was a touch better, but he is worth more than $6.5M and DOughty was less than $4M? No clue how that happens.

Makar is a $16M player in his model, which is fair since his "valuation" is based purely on output and not really the real-world limits that exist. However, D Toews is a $10.6M guy on average over the next 3 years and Girard is a $9.5M guy for the next 6. Come on now.

I ultimately agree that our contract efficiency isn't great, but Dom's model seems to have been crushed by the weird COVID schedule. It's all over the place.
He likes offense and his model reflects that. Dom seems to be getting more brazen based on the evolution of his articles.
 

Eldon Reid

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While I don't disagree with all of his assessment, I do think we tend to overrate or overvalue his work and Pronman's work at The Athletic. Just glancing at some other teams, he has Carlo at negative value on every year of his contract, which is a head-scratching take. Petro is negative in every year, which similar to Schenn and Faulk, I just don't agree with. Those deals will age poorly, but they are fine in current year. Hamilton is a positive in every year, which doesn't make sense.

I think we all agree on how our situation will look 4ish years from now though, sooner if Parayko situation goes bad.

I like his work, but some of the projections on some of the players' deals make you shake your head.

Noah Hanifin is in the Red this coming season, but blue the next 2. Heiskanen is the same. Red this season and blue the rest.

IDK the model is very weird to me. To me, a deal like Faulk & Krug would be about equal value to me except the last year or two. Sometimes that is where I feel the analytic stuff isn't the best at projections like this. His model must value defensive player very little.
 

Ranksu

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I've lost a lot of respect for Dom's model over the last few days, because it is all over the map.

Parayko is a $5M player while Krug is projected to average out as a $6.3M player over the life of his deal (and is currently worth more than his $6.5M AAV).

Sunny is a $1.7M player under his model while Bortz is a $1.8M player. Sanford is a $3.1M player

MacMac is apparently $500k worse than a replacement-level league minimum player and Scandella is a below replacement-level league minimum player.

Looking around the league, pretty much anyone who plays a defensive role takes a massive pounding from his model. I genuinely can't figure out how Drew Doughty was a $3.8M player last year (and is projected to be a bottom pair guy next year) while Krug is close to a $7M D man. They had shockingly similar numbers this year in the same division. Krug had 4 more even strength points and 2 fewer overall points. Krug was an expected -3.2 while Doughty was a +0.5, Both had good possession metrics with Krug having a small but not insignificant edge. However, Krug started off in the offensive zone 58% of the time compared to 53% for Doughty and Doughty was more consistently out there against a better quality of competition. I'm fine if you want to say that Krug was a touch better, but he is worth more than $6.5M and DOughty was less than $4M? No clue how that happens.

Makar is a $16M player in his model, which is fair since his "valuation" is based purely on output and not really the real-world limits that exist. However, D Toews is a $10.6M guy on average over the next 3 years and Girard is a $9.5M guy for the next 6. Come on now.

I ultimately agree that our contract efficiency isn't great, but Dom's model seems to have been crushed by the weird COVID schedule. It's all over the place.
Damn. We should be thrilled about Faulk and Krug then, oh you guys are. I'm the only who is waving white flag over those dmens. :surrender
 

MissouriMook

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Damn. We should be thrilled about Faulk and Krug then, oh you guys are. I'm the only who is waving white flag over those dmens. :surrender
888.jpg
 

Em etah Eh

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Damn. We should be thrilled about Faulk and Krug then, oh you guys are. I'm the only who is waving white flag over those dmens. :surrender

Yeah, you are the only one on the boards that don't like those contracts... Keep fighting the good fight. Or... just drop it because the horse gets beaten in every thread and most on here know we aren't going to be able to move those contracts. Best just support the players and hope they play well at this point.
 

Celtic Note

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His model has been the most predictive in hockey for the last 3ish years in a row, so it's understandable that his confidence in it rises as it continues to be successful
He really doesn’t have much competition though. I still like and appreciate the effort, even those there are obvious flaws.
 
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Reality Czech

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I would have put this in the "Around the NHL" thread, but I see it's been closed for now. I'm a regular listener of the Cam and Strick Podcast (who get some incredible guests by the way, if you don't listen), and they recently had on Robin Lehner. The episode is certainly worth a listen as he goes into detail about the dysfunction in Buffalo, the whole Fleury situation in Vegas and his well-documented mental health issues among other things. He's not only open and blunt about issues a lot of people aren't comfortable talking about and I really enjoy getting that first-hand perspective. As fans we think we know these guys and the issues they go through, but really don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

The reason I'm posting it is I thought someone might be interested to read the Q & A he posted on Twitter yesterday. Some of the answers are pretty amusing and interesting. He mentioned how he likes Binnington but someone's gonna beat him up at some point and as hard as this is to accept, that Mark Stone is a great person. Wish more players would be this open and candid.

 
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