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WC: 2021 Germany Roster Talk

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VLK said:
You can only imagine what kind of a hockey superpower Germany would be if hockey was the number two sport in Germany like it is in Sweden.

Football is unchaklengable as the first sport. It could become the first sport even in Finland if Finland can pull off a half decent performance in the upcoming euros, the first ever time Finland is in a major tournament.
Click to expand...

Well, based on attendance numbers and active participants at all levels, ice hockey IS the second largest "team" sport in Germany.

From a TV and media standpoint, it's still behind things like Formula 1, Tennis, and even winter sports like skiing (when televized), but no other team sport comes even close, no matter what you hear, including handball, much less basketball.

In fact, take away king soccer and ice hockey actually demolishes attendance records for the other team sports. You will NOT find any team in those sports filling arenas anywhere close to the way Berlin and Mannheim do. And things like handball and basketball aren't even represented in certain areas of the country, at least not above a purely amateur level. Ice hockey is in basically every corner of the country.

Going even further, ice hockey has many tiers that are officially organized and where players can even earn money. The other team sports whither away after the third level, if not already after the second. The third level of play is chock full of former NCAAers, ECHLers, and guys who have played at the top or second levels in countries like Czechia, Slovakia, Sweden, and Finland.

The importance of the sport at the grassroots level shouldn't be underestimated.

However, traditionally, it definitely does not get the same following at the national media level, although that too has changed slowly, but surely over the years. The nation's top news show at 8 pm every night has been showing short highlights when Germany has had a game. And there isn't a sports section in any major paper that hasn't at least had the standard article. Some are covering the WC quite heavily.
 
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Definitly disagree with Hockey being much bigger than Handball. From an attendance perspective you are right, DEL has a pretty good attendance with 6.5k on average, while the DHL only has around 5k.

However at least in west germany it's way easier to play handball than it is to play hockey and while many people care about hockey here (especially with DEG and Köln being 2 big clubs), its not as big as Handball is in everyday life. There are roughly 25.000 active german hockey players while there are roughly 275k active handball players.

Germany has the best handball league in the world, they have a first class national team that historically is competing for titles and even big events like the annual EHF final four is being played in Cologne. Look how much attention every match gets during the handball world cup/european championship, you can't compare that to hockey.

The game against Switzerland was watched by 1.5 million people, Germanys Handball game against Norway 2 years ago was watched by 11.9 million people.
 
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VLK said:
Football is unchaklengable as the first sport. It could become the first sport even in Finland if Finland can pull off a half decent performance in the upcoming euros, the first ever time Finland is in a major tournament.
Click to expand...
Soccer already is the number one sport in Finland, if we look at the number of people who have it as a hobby. But I'm afraid it's going to take more than a semi-decent performance in the upcoming euros to raise Finland's stock in the professional pitches. Our biggest obstacle in that regard is our climate. We can't play the game outdoors all year long, and our number of indoor training centers is woefully small. The situation is decent in the biggest cities, but it would take some serious investments into the infrastructure elsewhere.

In contrast, Finland has 281 full-size indoor hockey rinks (and a number of lesser practice rinks on top) - you could randomly land in some backwater village and the odds are you'd find one nearby.

So as far as producing world-class talent goes, hockey's going to top soccer in Finland for the foreseeable future.

In contrast, the situation looks inverse in Germany. Their soccer infrastructure is world-class, but they'd need to invest in more hockey rinks (the current number is 218 - so less than Finland has total for 15 times the population) to truly become one of the major powers.
 
I think Reichel showed in this WC that he is already good enough for Olympics.


Philipp Grubauer
Mathias Niederberger
Felix Brückmann

Moritz Seider - Korbinian Holzer
Marcel Brandt - Jonas Müller
Konrad Abeltshauser - Moritz Muller
Simon Sezemsky - Leon Gawanke

Dominik Kahun - Leon Draisatl - Tom Kühnhackl
Tim Stutzle - Brooks Macek - Tobias Rieder
Matthias Plachta - Nico Sturm - Markus Eisenschmid
Marcel Noebels - Lukas Reichel - Leo Pföderl
Bergmann - Michaelis - Peterka
 
Daeni10 said:
Definitly disagree with Hockey being much bigger than Handball. From an attendance perspective you are right, DEL has a pretty good attendance with 6.5k on average, while the DHL only has around 5k.

However at least in west germany it's way easier to play handball than it is to play hockey and while many people care about hockey here (especially with DEG and Köln being 2 big clubs), its not as big as Handball is in everyday life. There are roughly 25.000 active german hockey players while there are roughly 275k active handball players.

Germany has the best handball league in the world, they have a first class national team that historically is competing for titles and even big events like the annual EHF final four is being played in Cologne. Look how much attention every match gets during the handball world cup/european championship, you can't compare that to hockey.

The game against Switzerland was watched by 1.5 million people, Germanys Handball game against Norway 2 years ago was watched by 11.9 million people.
Click to expand...

Interesting.

Then I do have a few questions.

Why hasn't handball ever become all that big in Bavaria, the economically strongest Bundesland?

From the Bayernliga to the DEL, ice hockey seems to blow away the sport there.

And moving up north, how did the Hamburg Freezers manage to be bigger than the HSV handball team that shared the same arena in Hamburg, and was initially pretty doggone successful in the standings, but which also went out of business earlier? Furthermore, when halfway successful, the Freezers were as big a ticket or larger than Kiel and Flensburg have ever been in handball, which as I understand it are the traditionally strongest handball clubs in the country?

Ultimately, we're talking about the nationwide level of interest in a team sport and I just do not see it for handball at the same level as ice hockey. Is there anything like the Oberliga Nord and Süd in Handball, where some teams like the Hannover Indians traditionally rake in over 2000 fans per home game? Does the sport enjoy that kind of widespread depth interest?

I have seen the reports in the past about "registered" players and participants, but we all know that alone due to needing to be able to ice skate, have access to ice rinks, and the general overall cost of playing ice hockey, almost no country has more registered ice hockey players than those playing other major sports where this prerequisite isn't required. That's not even the case in Canada or Russia, but we do know that - all things considered - ice hockey is the most popular (team) sport in those countries.

I mean, you could look at the number of kids registered in "Turnvereine" and it'd prolly even top soccer. Does that make that activity bigger than soccer?

At the end of the day, doesn't a greater attendance for a wider range of professional and semi-professional teams provide the much more telling story about which sport is "more popular"?

What you mention about the EHF does however go to show what I was referring to with the media interest. I never picked up on any of that interest or the numbers you mention (whow, 11.9 MM against Norway???), but I admit I wasn't ever looking out for it. Were the games you mentioned shown on ZDF or ARD?

Thank goodness we're now seeing so much ice hockey on Sport1, 'cause that has changed a bit for the better since DSF times.

How do the numbers look for viewing handball during the Olympics? How do they look during a handball world championship?

They're probably better than what ice hockey has gotten. I won't make the argument that ice hockey is bigger than handball, or maybe even basketball, when it comes to pure media attention and the readiness of public channels to show or report on it. That's always been the biggest complaint for ice hockey fans.

But again, are either of these sports getting more attendees at the games, at any level?

ASIDE:
If the handball league in Germany is the best in the world, but average attendance (for all 20 clubs, really) is 5k, what does that say about the sport in general? I think the KHL alone blows that out of the water, much less the NHL. Even the AHL probably has a higher average attendance and I think the ECHL has broken 6k on a number of occasions, albeit both of those leagues have had stallions that were bringing in 10000+ averages along the way.
 
Chapin Landvogt said:
I played for the HSV at the beginning of the century and have coached there for a number of years since. Heck, we might even know a few of the same people?

Best regards from good ol' Hamburg!
Click to expand...

I only played for two years from 1985-1987 IIRC at the old outdoor rink at Stellingen.

Sometimes it would rain and the puck would stop all the time during games due to the accumulated puddles.

Our biggest competition was probably BSc Berlin. We also played Hannover, Duisburg, Bremerhaven IIRC.

The best player on our team was defenceman Marc Drenkahnn who I believe played semi pro or pro at some point.

In any event, it was quite a culture clash coming from Canada at the time (they had never seen our neckguards or Cooperall pants before) and we didn’t drink hot tea during intermissions in Canada.

Our entire team ended up getting neck guards and we sort of spread it around Northern Germany as the teams we would play would see us and get them eventually as well.

It’s startling how far Germany has come so fast.

I had an absolute blast going from not speaking a word of German to missing my new friends terribly when I had to move on to Bonn.

I think the highlight for me personally was the pommes with Curry ketchup from the rink Imbiss. ;)
 
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FiLe said:
Soccer already is the number one sport in Finland, if we look at the number of people who have it as a hobby. But I'm afraid it's going to take more than a semi-decent performance in the upcoming euros to raise Finland's stock in the professional pitches. Our biggest obstacle in that regard is our climate. We can't play the game outdoors all year long, and our number of indoor training centers is woefully small. The situation is decent in the biggest cities, but it would take some serious investments into the infrastructure elsewhere.

In contrast, Finland has 281 full-size indoor hockey rinks (and a number of lesser practice rinks on top) - you could randomly land in some backwater village and the odds are you'd find one nearby.

So as far as producing world-class talent goes, hockey's going to top soccer in Finland for the foreseeable future.

In contrast, the situation looks inverse in Germany. Their soccer infrastructure is world-class, but they'd need to invest in more hockey rinks (the current number is 218 - so less than Finland has total for 15 times the population) to truly become one of the major powers.
Click to expand...

You'll still see an ice rink in just about every Bavarian town.

In general, you'll basically find an ice rink or two in every southern and western German town that has a population of 20,000 or more.

Still, nothing compared to the Finnish winter sport culture in the manner you describe above.

Amazing, but soccer is simply the top sport in the world. This simplicity of just getting a ball and then kicking it around, even under some of the worst circumstances, makes it far more universal.

But when people factor in the general roadblocks to actually playing ice hockey and becoming a pro player in comparison to all the sports that do not have those prerequisites, then throw in the the amount of sponsors willing to be financially involved, the attendance in stadiums, and the press coverage, it's clear that ice hockey is the 2nd most popular team sport in no less than Sweden, Finland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Slovenia, and Switzerland, while being the 1A in Canada and Russia.
 
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Chapin Landvogt said:
Interesting.

Then I do have a few questions.

Why hasn't handball ever become all that big in Bavaria, the economically strongest Bundesland?

From the Bayernliga to the DEL, ice hockey seems to blow away the sport there.

And moving up north, how did the Hamburg Freezers manage to be bigger than the HSV handball team that shared the same arena in Hamburg, and was initially pretty doggone successful in the standings, but which also went out of business earlier? Furthermore, when halfway successful, the Freezers were as big a ticket or larger than Kiel and Flensburg have ever been in handball, which as I understand it are the traditionally strongest handball clubs in the country?

Ultimately, we're talking about the nationwide level of interest in a team sport and I just do not see it for handball at the same level as ice hockey. Is there anything like the Oberliga Nord and Süd in Handball, where some teams like the Hannover Indians traditionally rake in over 2000 fans per home game? Does the sport enjoy that kind of widespread depth interest?

I have seen the reports in the past about "registered" players and participants, but we all know that alone due to needing to be able to ice skate, have access to ice rinks, and the general overall cost of playing ice hockey, almost no country has more registered ice hockey players than those playing other major sports where this prerequisite isn't required. That's not even the case in Canada or Russia, but we do know that - all things considered - ice hockey is the most popular (team) sport in those countries.

I mean, you could look at the number of kids registered in "Turnvereine" and it'd prolly even top soccer. Does that make that activity bigger than soccer?

At the end of the day, doesn't a greater attendance for a wider range of professional and semi-professional teams provide the much more telling story about which sport is "more popular"?

What you mention about the EHF does however go to show what I was referring to with the media interest. I never picked up on any of that interest or the numbers you mention (whow, 11.9 MM against Norway???), but I admit I wasn't ever looking out for it. Were the games you mentioned shown on ZDF or ARD?

Thank goodness we're now seeing so much ice hockey on Sport1, 'cause that has changed a bit for the better since DSF times.

How do the numbers look for viewing handball during the Olympics? How do they look during a handball world championship?

They're probably better than what ice hockey has gotten. I won't make the argument that ice hockey is bigger than handball, or maybe even basketball, when it comes to pure media attention and the readiness of public channels to show or report on it. That's always been the biggest complaint for ice hockey fans.

But again, are either of these sports getting more attendees at the games, at any level?

ASIDE:
If the handball league in Germany is the best in the world, but average attendance (for all 20 clubs, really) is 5k, what does that say about the sport in general? I think the KHL alone blows that out of the water, much less the NHL. Even the AHL probably has a higher average attendance and I think the ECHL has broken 6k on a number of occasions, albeit both of those leagues have had stallions that were bringing in 10000+ averages along the way.
Click to expand...


Well to the first point, it has probably something to do with there just being a lot more rinks in Bayern and also more people being able to pay for it. I have no idea how big Handball is in the lower leagues in Bayern, but what I can tell you that at least here in the west, there is only 1 hockey team close to me in Aachen. And thats also the only rink close by.
Handball however has multiple leagues just filled with Teams from Aachen.

And yeah, I would say so. There is probably no perfect comparism for Hannover, but I know that at least in my city the 2 Handball teams have a couple of hundred spectators during their games on the weekend while being like 5th to 8th league.
I honestly think that this is also a reason that attendance is not as high (among others). It's just way easier to go watch a local Handball team compared to hockey here. So many of the people are spending their saturdays watching low level amateur handball while if you want to see hockey, you need to go to one of the big clubs.

Or maybe let me phrase it this way: I think that there are more hardcore hockey fans here, however the general public is more knowledgeable about Handball and interested in the big events.

For example in 2007 when Germany played the final of the World Cup in Cologne, the game had a market share of 58%. Over 16 Million people watched the game.
The Olympic final was at 5am here so its hard to compare raw numbers, but it had a market share of 51% with 3 Million viewers.

And yes pretty much every game of the handball national team gets shown on ZDF or ARD. Thats just another example of why Handball is the bigger sport in Germany. Hockey is getting bigger and bigger, but it's not on the same level as Handball quite yet. At least not in west germany
 
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Daeni10 said:
Well to the first point, it has probably something to do with there just being a lot more rinks in Bayern and also more people being able to pay for it. I have no idea how big Handball is in the lower leagues in Bayern, but what I can tell you that at least here in the west, there is only 1 hockey team close to me in Aachen. And thats also the only rink close by.
Handball however has multiple leagues just filled with Teams from Aachen.

And yeah, I would say so. There is probably no perfect comparism for Hannover, but I know that at least in my city the 2 Handball teams have a couple of hundred spectators during their games on the weekend while being like 5th to 8th league.
I honestly think that this is also a reason that attendance is not as high (among others). It's just way easier to go watch a local Handball team compared to hockey here. So many of the people are spending their saturdays watching low level amateur handball while if you want to see hockey, you need to go to one of the big clubs.

Or maybe let me phrase it this way: I think that there are more hardcore hockey fans here, however the general public is more knowledgeable about Handball and interested in the big events.

For example in 2007 when Germany played the final of the World Cup in Cologne, the game had a market share of 58%. Over 16 Million people watched the game.
The Olympic final was at 5am here so its hard to compare raw numbers, but it had a market share of 51% with 3 Million viewers.

And yes pretty much every game of the handball national team gets shown on ZDF or ARD. Thats just another example of why Handball is the bigger sport in Germany. Hockey is getting bigger and bigger, but it's not on the same level as Handball quite yet. At least not in west germany
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Yes right! Handball is the number 2 sport in Germany. A popular sport is particularly recognizable when it continues to play a role despite failure. So it is not only popular when the national team is successful. Handball remains interesting in Germany, even if the national team does not live up to expectations. It's the same with football. The dilemma in ice hockey in Germany is always that popularity and media attention only depends on success. As soon as there is failure again, many turn away from ice hockey. There is hardly any interest left. Except of course in the local area. Even if Germany were to become world champions, e.g. Should there be no chance in Beijing, the disappointment is very high in Germany. Everything is very moody. Soccer and handball (on a smaller scale, of course), on the other hand, are "crisis-proof". ;)
 
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Lambo said:
Yes right! Handball is the number 2 sport in Germany. A popular sport is particularly recognizable when it continues to play a role despite failure. So it is not only popular when the national team is successful. Handball remains interesting in Germany, even if the national team does not live up to expectations. It's the same with football. The dilemma in ice hockey in Germany is always that popularity and media attention only depends on success. As soon as there is failure again, many turn away from ice hockey. There is hardly any interest left. Except of course in the local area. Even if Germany were to become world champions, e.g. Should there be no chance in Beijing, the disappointment is very high in Germany. Everything is very moody. Soccer and handball (on a smaller scale, of course), on the other hand, are "crisis-proof". ;)
Click to expand...

Well said!
 
Chapin Landvogt said:
Interesting.

Then I do have a few questions.

Why hasn't handball ever become all that big in Bavaria, the economically strongest Bundesland?

From the Bayernliga to the DEL, ice hockey seems to blow away the sport there.

And moving up north, how did the Hamburg Freezers manage to be bigger than the HSV handball team that shared the same arena in Hamburg, and was initially pretty doggone successful in the standings, but which also went out of business earlier? Furthermore, when halfway successful, the Freezers were as big a ticket or larger than Kiel and Flensburg have ever been in handball, which as I understand it are the traditionally strongest handball clubs in the country?

Ultimately, we're talking about the nationwide level of interest in a team sport and I just do not see it for handball at the same level as ice hockey. Is there anything like the Oberliga Nord and Süd in Handball, where some teams like the Hannover Indians traditionally rake in over 2000 fans per home game? Does the sport enjoy that kind of widespread depth interest?

I have seen the reports in the past about "registered" players and participants, but we all know that alone due to needing to be able to ice skate, have access to ice rinks, and the general overall cost of playing ice hockey, almost no country has more registered ice hockey players than those playing other major sports where this prerequisite isn't required. That's not even the case in Canada or Russia, but we do know that - all things considered - ice hockey is the most popular (team) sport in those countries.

I mean, you could look at the number of kids registered in "Turnvereine" and it'd prolly even top soccer. Does that make that activity bigger than soccer?

At the end of the day, doesn't a greater attendance for a wider range of professional and semi-professional teams provide the much more telling story about which sport is "more popular"?

What you mention about the EHF does however go to show what I was referring to with the media interest. I never picked up on any of that interest or the numbers you mention (whow, 11.9 MM against Norway???), but I admit I wasn't ever looking out for it. Were the games you mentioned shown on ZDF or ARD?

Thank goodness we're now seeing so much ice hockey on Sport1, 'cause that has changed a bit for the better since DSF times.

How do the numbers look for viewing handball during the Olympics? How do they look during a handball world championship?

They're probably better than what ice hockey has gotten. I won't make the argument that ice hockey is bigger than handball, or maybe even basketball, when it comes to pure media attention and the readiness of public channels to show or report on it. That's always been the biggest complaint for ice hockey fans.

But again, are either of these sports getting more attendees at the games, at any level?

ASIDE:
If the handball league in Germany is the best in the world, but average attendance (for all 20 clubs, really) is 5k, what does that say about the sport in general? I think the KHL alone blows that out of the water, much less the NHL. Even the AHL probably has a higher average attendance and I think the ECHL has broken 6k on a number of occasions, albeit both of those leagues have had stallions that were bringing in 10000+ averages along the way.
Click to expand...
You are looking only at attendance. That's not the whole story. Every town has a handball club. My modest hometown of 100000 inhabitants had 6 that I know of, there are likely more as I never bothered to do a lot in the northern part of the city. My quarter, having a measly 5k inhabitants, had one. That simply is not the case for hockey. Often handball at the lower levels is played in schoolgyms. You won't have a lot of people watching, let alone paying, but it's there.
 
NyQuil said:
I only played for two years from 1985-1987 IIRC at the old outdoor rink at Stellingen.

Sometimes it would rain and the puck would stop all the time during games due to the accumulated puddles.

Our biggest competition was probably BSc Berlin. We also played Hannover, Duisburg, Bremerhaven IIRC.

The best player on our team was defenceman Marc Drenkahnn who I believe played semi pro or pro at some point.

In any event, it was quite a culture clash coming from Canada at the time (they had never seen our neckguards or Cooperall pants before) and we didn’t drink hot tea during intermissions in Canada.


I think the highlight for me personally was the pommes with Curry ketchup from the rink Imbiss. ;)
Click to expand...

When i think that my first time playing a bit of Hockey was just this year, its baffeling.
I have a canadian friend that is a goalie. She lives here in Europe since 10 years.
And well in febuary (or january) of this year it was damn cold in Tilburg (Netherlands) and she called me that we will go on the ice in the harbour to play hockey.
Thing is i don't own skates (got her moms, and even though we have the same size, it hurt like hell) or a stick. But we made it work with goalie sticks and me playing without skate.

But a lot of kids were playing ice hockey there. That was really interesting, because even though we are living in the Hockeytown of the Netherlands (the best team and the national team are here) we don't have an university team. But it was cool, me beeing a total noob playing without skates and with a borrowed stick with and against others with skates and sticks on a frozen harbour. really fun for all of us.

When i think about the hockey situation when i was younger, i would have loved to play it. But there was no rink near my town. When i got to High school in Bielefeld, i could have played in herford (one train sattion further) at the Herford Ice Dragons (best name evver) but at that time i did not know that. And that is a shame. I would have loved to play.

And now that i learn to skate and stickwork, i am to old to play in team and we don't have a beer league here in Tilburg....
Its a shame, because the way i am build, i could be a good defender or Center (being 186cm, broad shoulders and around 90 kg of muscles).

But well, yo can't always get what you want.

Also your story is great and Pommes is always good :D
 
Well the usual Hochey diskussion in Germany. Outside some big cities and the tradidional hockey smaller hockey towns in Bavaria (Garmisch, Füssen, Landshut, Rosenheim) there are not enough opportunities to play hockey in Germany.
Yes the attendance is higher than in the other german leagues, that so is down to Cologne, Mannheim, Berlin an Düsseldorf which have big arenas and a long hockey history.

Handball has different traditional smaller / midtown markets (Kiel, Flensburg etc.), same with Basketball (Bamberg, Ulm, Bayreuth, Würzburg).

All sportsteams outside hockey are structured regional financial support.

If you look an the rankings of sports popularity after soccer for the big cities i would assume.

Berlin: 1. Hockey / Basketball 3. Handball
Hamburg: probably field Hockey :laugh:
Munich: 1. Basketball 1. Hockey (Sports outside football always struggeled. Red Bull trying to establish hockey and Bayern Munich Basketball) - Lets see how it works when the new arena is ready. Hockey in Munich also benefittig from Red Bull Academy in Salzburg - which really helps player development in Upper-Bavaria area
Cologne: 1. Hockey 2. probably Handball (Gummersbach)
Frankfurt: 1. Hockey (unfortunatly not been able to run team financially fiable), 2. Basketball
Stuttgart: 1. Handball
Düsseldorf: 1. Hockey 2. would not know

TV / National Team attention: 1. Handball, 2. Hockey 3. Basketball
US Pro Leagues: 1. NFL 2. NBA long distance 3. NHL

German hockey is benefittig from youth development Programm in Mannheim (strongest team sport development programm) and Salzburg (lot of German prospects and playing Czech junior league). I hope that Cologne, Berlin and Munich (infrastructure investment started) increase investments in junior hockey development, we need stronger competition at that level.

Development German prospects NHL players

Draisaitl: Cologne, Mannheim, WHL
Reichel: Rosenheim, Berlin
Peterka: Bad Töz, Salzburg
Kahun: Mannheim, OHL
Rieder: Landshut, OHL
Seider: Erfurt Mannheim
Grubauer: Rosenheim, OHL
Greiss: Füssen, Cologne
Sturm: Augsburg, Kaufbäuren, NA
Bokk: Cologne, Sweden
Stützle: Krefeld, Mannheim
Kühnhackl: Landshut, OHL

Looking at the history (Sturm Hecht Goc etc) not looking much different.
Bloodlines, Career Start in small tradional hockey market followed often by jump to Mannheim / NA
 
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The Handball vs Hockey comparison is a little difficult in Germany. Attendance vs registered players, media coverage and club spending, there is a lot to discuss. One difference that I haven't seen mentioned is that there are several cities and even regions in Germany where the local hockey team is the focal point of coverage, attendance, spending, sponsors and so on. I don't think you'll find that as often in Handball. In a way it is easier for hockey teams to be the big thing in some areas because there are less clubs, so if you are in certain regions and want to play/attend hockey, you have to deal with the one professional club. That is hardly the case in Handball.

Also there are a lot more professional players in Hockey. I haven't checked, but I would estimate that below football hockey is the sport in Germany with the second most professionals by far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the third tier is made up of professionals completely and there are several professional players even in the fourth tier.

Overall I think Handball has more casual followers partly due to the success of the national teams over the years and Handball being a little easier to follow on TV, but hockey has more regular followers which is reflected in attendance. Btw, this is not a casual vs 'real' fans argument, I am just pointing out (perceived) differences.
 
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EHCler said:
Well the usual Hochey diskussion in Germany. Outside some big cities and the tradidional hockey smaller hockey towns in Bavaria (Garmisch, Füssen, Landshut, Rosenheim) there are not enough opportunities to play hockey in Germany.
Yes the attendance is higher than in the other german leagues, that so is down to Cologne, Mannheim, Berlin an Düsseldorf which have big arenas and a long hockey history.

Handball has different traditional smaller / midtown markets (Kiel, Flensburg etc.), same with Basketball (Bamberg, Ulm, Bayreuth, Würzburg).

All sportsteams outside hockey are structured regional financial support.

If you look an the rankings of sports popularity after soccer for the big cities i would assume.

Berlin: 1. Hockey / Basketball 3. Handball
Hamburg: probably field Hockey :laugh:
Munich: 1. Basketball 1. Hockey (Sports outside football always struggeled. Red Bull trying to establish hockey and Bayern Munich Basketball) - Lets see how it works when the new arena is ready. Hockey in Munich also benefittig from Red Bull Academy in Salzburg - which really helps player development in Upper-Bavaria area
Cologne: 1. Hockey 2. probably Handball (Gummersbach)
Frankfurt: 1. Hockey (unfortunatly not been able to run team financially fiable), 2. Basketball
Stuttgart: 1. Handball
Düsseldorf: 1. Hockey 2. would not know

TV / National Team attention: 1. Handball, 2. Hockey 3. Basketball
US Pro Leagues: 1. NFL 2. NBA long distance 3. NHL

German hockey is benefittig from youth development Programm in Mannheim (strongest team sport development programm) and Salzburg (lot of German prospects and playing Czech junior league). I hope that Cologne, Berlin and Munich (infrastructure investment started) increase investments in junior hockey development, we need stronger competition at that level.

Development German prospects NHL players

Draisaitl: Cologne, Mannheim, WHL
Reichel: Rosenheim, Berlin
Peterka: Bad Töz, Salzburg
Kahun: Mannheim, OHL
Rieder: Landshut, OHL
Seider: Erfurt Mannheim
Grubauer: Rosenheim, OHL
Greiss: Füssen, Cologne
Sturm: Augsburg, Kaufbäuren, NA
Bokk: Cologne, Sweden
Stützle: Krefeld, Mannheim
Kühnhackl: Landshut, OHL

Looking at the history (Sturm Hecht Goc etc) not looking much different.
Bloodlines, Career Start in small tradional hockey market followed often by jump to Mannheim / NA
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Uhlenhorst is no laughing matter.
 
Harry Waters said:
The Handball vs Hockey comparison is a little difficult in Germany. Attendance vs registered players, media coverage and club spending, there is a lot to discuss. One difference that I haven't seen mentioned is that there are several cities and even regions in Germany where the local hockey team is the focal point of coverage, attendance, spending, sponsors and so on. I don't think you'll find that as often in Handball. In a way it is easier for hockey teams to be the big thing in some areas because there are less clubs, so if you are in certain regions and want to play/attend hockey, you have to deal with the one professional club. That is hardly the case in Handball.

Also there are a lot more professional players in Hockey. I haven't checked, but I would estimate that below football hockey is the sport in Germany with the second most professionals by far. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the third tier is made up of professionals completely and there are several professional players even in the fourth tier.

Overall I think Handball has more casual followers partly due to the success of the national teams over the years and Handball being a little easier to follow on TV, but hockey has more regular followers which is reflected in attendance. Btw, this is not a casual vs 'real' fans argument, I am just pointing out (perceived) differences.
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I have never in my life seen a 3rd tier hockey game and I watch hockey for a long time now. I bet I am not alone. It's hard to imagine that they are pros considering that clubs in the first tier are not free from financial woes.
 
And while you guys bicker, german volleyball is slowly dying. :eek:

Now that's the real issue in german team sports!
 
Eisen said:
I have never in my life seen a 3rd tier hockey game and I watch hockey for a long time now. I bet I am not alone. It's hard to imagine that they are pros considering that clubs in the first tier are not free from financial woes.
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Played third tier for a while. Definitely not a pro :D It’s a weird league though. Some players actually get decent money, some players are in for the fun and some players get a little compensation for material/equipment. Fringe Semi-Pro I would say.
 
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