WC: 2021 Finland Roster Talk

[FiLe]

It's hilarious - even after everything Jalonen has done, there are still people who think they know more about hockey than him. Well, there might be people who do know more, but I'm fairly certain those people won't bother loitering around HFBoards. And when those people can't see the red thread, they'll just think there isn't one.

So, instead of providing criticism, I'll try and use my peabrain to pluck out the aforementioned thread.

Well, if there's something to be pleased about, it's that Jalonen seemingly agrees with me that Kontiola's line could use a power forward. I just didn't anticipate that he's going to smash his only functional-looking line to atoms to give it one. Regardless, Innala-Kontiola-Pakarinen is a well-roled line. There's definitely a chance it'll work.

There was always a distinct chance that Jalonen will slot Ruotsalainen as a centre, but I thought that we have enough quality down the middle lane that he could be better utilized as a winger. But solid two-way game is one of the capable centre forward's requirements in Jalonen's game plan. And Lundell did have some defensive lapses when playing center in those EHT games; I admit I thought he has enough of an offensive upside to get a pass for those. But evidently Jalonen disagreed. In and of itself, Lundell as a winger is not a complete oddity. That's how he was broken into Liiga two seasons ago. And he might even benefit from it, as it gives him more liberties to use his offensive tools.

Finally, that Turunen-Ruotsalainen-Karjalainen line... is definitely a gamble. It has sizable offensive potential - those guys should all know how to bury the puck when given the chance. But it's also a total Mickey Mouse Club. All of three of them aren't less than six feet tall (the tallest is Turunen at 5' 10"), and they all weigh less than 85 kilos. Luckily, it's something of a low-risk gamble. The first game is vs. USA, so if it's going to get outchecked, especially against the tougher opposition, Jalonen should know it right away.

All in all, the team did lack some offensive flair during the EHT, and this appears to be Jalonen's attempt of generating some more. And if it's not a successful attempt, there's still ample time to try something else. Especially since the next five games after the opener should be against somewhat easier opposition.

 

[Lartsaman]

I really think the 2019 campaign just set you up for major disappointment, overconfidence seems to be at an all-time high. Yes, it worked once, it doesn't mean any bunch of average Euro pros can now be considered a contender as long as Jalonen, and sisu, and intangibles and all that.

We have used to disappointments so not much of a big deal if and when it happens this year. Finland have never taken two golds in a row. I would really be suprised if we won this year with this mediocre roster.

 

[FiLe]

We have used to disappointments so not much of a big deal if and when it happens this year. Finland have never taken two golds in a row. I would really be suprised if we won this year with this mediocre roster.

Yeah. It's not like anybody really expects Finland to waltz into gold here - but neither can you dismiss that possibility, which should be the main takeaway from 2019.

In fact, the odds are even not as high as they were two years ago, as this year's Finland is slightly better on paper than the 2019 edition and, furthermore, the opposition's not nearly as star-studded either. Sweden, Russia and Canada have notably more meager rosters than they did in 2019.

Regardless, Finland's hardly a favorite - but if Jalonen somehow pulls off two in a row, I'm all in for giving him a statue on the Senate Square. That old Russkie has stood there long enough anyway.

 

[Mestaruus]

I really think the 2019 campaign just set you up for major disappointment, overconfidence seems to be at an all-time high. Yes, it worked once, it doesn't mean any bunch of average Euro pros can now be considered a contender as long as Jalonen, and sisu, and intangibles and all that.

Sort of like a championship hangover. Similar example was Finland's 2016 U20 gold team and Finland almost relegated in 2017. Wrong head coach selection was the biggest thing back then.

What you said is possible to happen and it will be interesting to see, but have to remember that the head coach Jalonen and his whole coaching staff is pretty much the same as in 2019 I believe and they are still with the team. It's a big part why Finland won in 2019. People sometimes just look at the player rosters and forget that Finland has a coaching advantage over any team in this tournament if you ask me.

 

[Mestaruus]

Well, if there's something to be pleased about, it's that Jalonen seemingly agrees with me that Kontiola's line could use a power forward. I just didn't anticipate that he's going to smash his only functional-looking line to atoms to give it one. Regardless, Innala-Kontiola-Pakarinen is a well-roled line. There's definitely a chance it'll work.

Yeah he can always re-do the Turunen-Ruohomaa-Pakarinen line later. It's hard for Finland not to reach the playoffs even with some experimenting so there's almost no risk in doing some experimenting now.

What's most important is to have the real line combinations ready before the final group stage game against Canada. Everything before Canada game can still be somewhat practice games, which is needed as our preparation camp was shorter than most other top teams had it.

 

[Czechboy]

How does this roster compare to 2019 gold roster? Also, why no hartikainan?

 

[SoundAndFury]

How does this roster compare to 2019 gold roster? Also, why no hartikainan?

It does seem marginally worse. Olkinuora was a backup that time, he's going to be starting now. The defense won't have Lehtonen this time. Forwards are kinda the same level.

Harti hasn't been playing for a couple of months now, he probably simply didn't want to arrange all his plans around a short meaningless (to him) bubble tournament in May. Although I'm just speculating it's a completely sensible decision, there is pretty much no reason for him to go.

 

[Lartsaman]

How does this roster compare to 2019 gold roster? Also, why no hartikainan?

Hartikainen declined because he wanted to spend time with a family and did´nt want to go to a bubble again.

 

[FiLe]

It does seem marginally worse. Olkinuora was a backup that time, he's going to be starting now. The defense won't have Lehtonen this time. Forwards are kinda the same level.

It's marginally better, actually. It may look worse if you look at where the players from that squad are now, but the comparison should always be made to what the players were back then. Lankinen wasn't an NHL starter in 2019, he was an AHL goalie, and one who had spent a part of the season in the ECHL at that. Olkinuora these days is a KHL starter. The level of the defense is overall better than it was in 2019, one NHLer back then, Jokiharju (as Lehtonen wasn't one yet), one now, Määttä - but there are a couple more high end KHL guys now. In fact, this defense crop is probably one of the better ones Finland has mustered together in the last few years. Lastly, the offense of 2019 had zero NHL goals in it, now it has at least a handful in the form of Ruotsalainen. The forward crop is also slightly more merited this time around overall.

Nobody in their right mind would call this 2021 roster impressive, but the fact is that it's a slightly better squad than the 2019 edition, going against competition that happens to be notably worse when you look at the NHL talent available to the other top countries and then compare them to the rosters they had two years ago.

 

[SoundAndFury]

It's marginally better, actually. It may look worse if you look at where the players from that squad are now, but the comparison should always be made to what the players were back then. Lankinen wasn't an NHL starter in 2019, he was an AHL goalie, and one who had spent a part of the season in the ECHL at that. Olkinuora these days is a KHL starter. The level of the defense is overall better than it was in 2019, one NHLer back then, Jokiharju (as Lehtonen wasn't one yet), one now, Määttä - but there are a couple more high end KHL guys now. In fact, this defense crop is probably one of the better ones Finland has mustered together in the last few years. Lastly, the offense of 2019 had zero NHL goals in it, now it has at least a handful in the form of Ruotsalainen. The forward crop is also slightly more merited this time around overall.

Nobody in their right mind would call this 2021 roster impressive, but the fact is that it's a slightly better squad than the 2019 edition, going against competition that happens to be notably worse when you look at the NHL talent available to the other top countries and then compare them to the rosters they had two years ago.

I mean it's kinda "glass is half-full or half-empty" discussion.

What Lankinen was at that time in his career doesn't really matter as it's his WC performance that Olkinuora will need to replicate and he was great. Olkinuora himself was in a fairly similar place in his career although again, in WC context it doesn't matter much.

Defense is in no way better as it had Hakanpaa (NHL now), Lehtonen (NHL/at least very elite KHL player), Miikola (NHL) and Jokiharju. Maata and Pokka do somewhat equalize Joki and Hakanpaa out but the rest are downgrades. Lehtonen being the most obvious as the only one somewhat close to him in its role is Rindell, I guess. That is some quality gap right there. Just because those guys weren't quite at the peak of their careers doesn't mean the current guys will reach a similar level ever. Most of what you call "high-end KHL guys" were on 2019 team as well (Kaski, Koivisto, Lindblom, Ohtamaa).

 

[FiLe]

I mean it's kinda "glass is half-full or half-empty" discussion.

You just basically made an argument as for why we should wait a couple of years - or at least until the tournament has ended - before we say which of the squads is better.

So why are you here making such a claim before a single game has been played?


A fact is that many players in this squad are at better places regarding their careers than their 2019 counterparts were. And it is the only fair comparison one should be making before we know how the tournament (and the players' careers) will play out.

 

[SoundAndFury]

You just basically made an argument as for why we should wait a couple of years - or at least until the tournament has ended - before we say which of the squads is better.

So why are you here making such a claim before a single game has been played?

A fact is that many players in this squad are at more advanced stages of their careers than their 2019 counterparts were. And it is the only fair comparison one should be making before we know how the tournament (and the players' careers) will play out.

At the time of 2019 WC Hakanpaa already had a deal with Ducks, Kaski with Red Wings, Lehtonen with Jokerit. It's not like those guys came out of nowhere. There are no such players on this year's team when it comes to defense. There just aren't. I don't really understand why are you trying so hard to spin something that's not there.

I would understand if these players would just emerge out of the woods each spring but we know who they are. And Rindell is no Mikko Lehtonen. It's that simple. And the guys whose careers are yet to play out aren't even going to be playing any big roles for this team. Rindell and Nousiainen, the only somewhat promising guys, aren't making the lineup as posted on the previous page.

There really isn't some kind of sensationalism in my posts, it's obvious to everyone who can read the names on the sheet. Yes you can make the point the returning players are more experienced now and whatnot. But overall the roster just seems weaker. I guess you are free to think otherwise.

 

[JabbaJabba]

It is quite funny looking back at 2019 team and thinking that at the time it was considered very weak and disappointing because now Kiviranta has become almost a legend in Dallas, Lankinen is competing for a starting position, Kakko did well in his second NHL season, Jokiharju plays top 4 minutes, Hakanpää managed to finally breakthrough in the NHL, Mikkola is a bottom pairing defenceman and Lehtonen is finally playing in the NHL. There was so much potential even though Kiviranta, Kakko and Hakanpää were just Liiga players for example.

Looking at the potential of this year's roster there are obviously Lundell, Rindell, Nousiainen, Puustinen, Ruotsalainen, maybe even Kaski. Maybe Lindbohm is this year's Hakanpää who plays well and gets a new chance in the NHL. I don't think you necessarily need to have that much NHL potential this year to succeed. I think there are a lot of very good players from different European leagues who likely don't come anywhere close to the NHL in their careers, but they are serviceable and fine players for this tournament. I like especially that there is a core of players who won in 2019 or have won something else like Määttä who has two Stanley Cup rings. It's good to have those kinds of experienced players along with these younger and hungry guys.

This tournament should be a weird one and considering the circumstances, I think this roster has a chance to succeed. Only thing I am worried about is goalscoring. Hopefully this team shows early on that it can create opportunities and capitalize on them.

edit: Forgot Lammikko and Luostarinen from the 2019 team as potential players who are starting to create NHL career.

 

[Sanf]

Personally I liked Lankinen two years ago better than I like Olkinuora now. Granted I have seen Olkinuora only few times these past two years. Olkinuora can be very inconsistent and his rebound control (atleast was) below average. But then again I believe we have now two quite even goalies.

In defence we may not have players like Mikkola, Jokiharju and Lehtonen who were in upswing at the time. But the defence now has slightly more experience than last time. I feel much more comfortable with Kaski now than last time.

Slightly different kind of team. Is it slightly better or weaker it comes down to small nuances.

 

[Sanf]

@
SoundAndFury Did you see (or did anyone else) see Tony Sund this season. I have had hard time figuring him out. He had NHL contract and now he had KHL contract. He was close to be in that 2019 team already.

Because I have mainly seen player who is kind of expected to be puck carrying even playmaking D. I haven´t seen that. And he has quite a many lapses in defensive zone. He is quite big, but not physical. But there has to be something in there?

 

[SoundAndFury]

@
SoundAndFury Did you see (or did anyone else) see Tony Sund this season. I have had hard time figuring him out. He had NHL contract and now he had KHL contract. He was close to be in that 2019 team already.

Because I have mainly seen player who is kind of expected to be puck carrying even playmaking D. I haven´t seen that. And he has quite a many lapses in defensive zone. He is quite big, but not physical. But there has to be something in there?

Yes I did see him a lot since he played in Riga which is my most followed team throughout the year. I would agree with your assessment, he isn't very good positionally and pretty soft but tall so has a long stick which helps to cover a lot of ground, at least. And he is also quite mobile for that matter. A decent passer but I wouldn't go as far as to call him playmaking D and he hardly ever carries the puck himself. Decent player but not much more. Sharks took a shot in the dark signing him to that deal, maybe they expected him to fill out physically.

He was one of the best Riga's Ds this year but that's not a high bar to clear. But he definitely has potential playing for weaker KHL teams or in NLA. But don't see him achieving much more than that, inherent flaws in his defensive game just too big.

 

[FiLe]

There really isn't some kind of sensationalism in my posts, it's obvious to everyone who can read the names on the sheet. Yes you can make the point the returning players are more experienced now and whatnot. But overall the roster just seems weaker. I guess you are free to think otherwise.

Sensationalism? Hardly. More like revisionism. It's easy to read the names on the sheet of the 2019 team now and say it wasn't that bad, but there was no one, absolutely no one, who could have made the same claim before the tournament. There were a plenty of guys who had potential to be much more than their then-statuses (and cheap NHL contracts) indicated, but they were not destined for greatness, the way you make it out to be. That team had to buy every shred of respect it's now earned with its feats on the ice. I'm not claiming this year's edition can do the same, but I'll assure you one last time, it's not starting from a similar deficit as the 2019 one. It's got players with better accomplishments than the players of the 2019 team had back in 2019 - which makes it a better team on paper.

Whether it's really a better team in reality is of course something only history can show us. Personally, I doubt it, simply because repeats are uncommon. But you still can't pit your gut feeling about one team against what you know for certain about another when making comparisons.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Sensationalism? Hardly. More like revisionism. It's easy to read the names on the sheet of the 2019 team now and say it wasn't that bad, but there was no one, absolutely no one, who could have made the same claim before the tournament.

Well, that team was definitely bad. Nobody is saying that team wasn't bad, it faced opponents that had real actual NHL players and even stars. The question was is this year's one better or worse. And if you compare 2019 Finnish team to 2021 Finnish team, not 2019 Canadian team it actually had to play against, yes, it is better.

And nobody was comparing teams, you could say 2019 was a great team of bad players. We are comparing names, rosters. Yes, before the games are played that's all you can do. Sometimes the bad players do make the great teams (examples are aplenty) but more often than not bad players are just bad.

" It's got players with better accomplishments than the players of the 2019 team had back in 2019 " - well, you keep repeating that but who are those players? Let's see them.

 

[FiLe]

And if you compare 2019 Finnish team to 2021 Finnish team, not 2019 Canadian team it actually had to play against, yes, it is better.

If the 2021 Finnish team will go on to win gold and features around ten guys who go on to become NHL regulars in the next two years' time, are you still going to call the 2019 team better?

 

[SoundAndFury]

features around ten guys who go on to become NHL regulars in the next two years' time

Well it's obvious to me that that's not going to happen. This is not U18s we are talking about where everyone can still become anything. The only players that can even dream about the NHL on this team from G and D are Rindell and Nousiainen. And they are struggling to get into the lineup while Lehtonen and Mikkola played key roles on the team in 2019.

I will repeat myself, you are talking about it like we don't know who these players are. We do. Just like in 2019 Kaski already had a bag full of Liiga awards, Hakanpaa led Liiga in +/- twice, Lehtonen was already SHL champion, etc.

 

[FiLe]

Well it's obvious to me that that's not going to happen.

Please, just answer the question, whether you think it'll really happen or not. If you refuse to answer it, I think we can both say why it is - you don't want to admit that one shouldn't compare expectations against accomplishments.

 

[SoundAndFury]

Please, just answer the question, whether you think it'll really happen or not. If you refuse to answer it, I think we can both say why it is - you don't want to admit that one shouldn't compare expectations against accomplishments.

I repeat, once again, we aren't talking about the expectations to them as a team, we are evaluating them as players. And everyone understands 2019 was a miracle run, it doesn't matter that those guys won the gold, everyone understands that if you evaluate the players that team was bad then and is bad now in comparison to its competition. And if they do win in 2021 it doesn't mean these guys are fantastic players all of the sudden, they are not.

Having said that, sure, if 10 guys from this team make the NHL I will absolutely conclude I was wrong and will consider this team to be better.

 

[FiLe]

I repeat, once again, we aren't talking about the expectations to them as a team, we are evaluating them as players.

And if I evaluate the players of this team against the players in the 2019 team, I'll still arrive to the conclusion that this is a better team overall. Slightly worse goaltending, but likely not enough to cost Finland any games. Defense that has a reliable-looking top-six, and since there are now extra players thanks to COVID, the worst performers will be sitting in the stands with zero effect on the performance on ice - which I consider an edge. And finally, offense that is actually hands down better overall. Better centres, and more wingers with offensive upside when compared to two years ago.

So, a better squad when you add it all up.

 

[Mestaruus]

Personally I liked Lankinen two years ago better than I like Olkinuora now. Granted I have seen Olkinuora only few times these past two years. Olkinuora can be very inconsistent and his rebound control (atleast was) below average. But then again I believe we have now two quite even goalies.

Same as you, I didn't watch Olkinuora play that much. The image of him letting that one empty netter goal against one of the EHT teams few days ago is still haunting in my head. If he has a habit of overplaying situations like that I don't like it at all.

 

[Mestaruus]

PP units in today's practice:

Turunen-Ruotsalainen-Karjalainen-Ruohomaa-Kaski

Innala-Kontiola-Lundell-Pakarinen-Sund

So 4 forwards in both and Pakarinen must be the mask man in the second unit.

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