2020 Roster and Fantasy GM Thread II

[MS]

This is an interesting proposal. With his injury history, he may be an LTIR candidate too.

Flipside is that NJ might be banking on that as well and thus not be willing to trade him for a healthy Eriksson.

 

[Hoghandler]

Would you say that being in a position where you're forced do give away good assets to dump bad contracts while a rebuilding non-playoff team with your best players still on ELCS because you've committed $30 million to Loui Eriksson, Tyler Myers, Brandon Sutter, Michael Ferland, Jay Beagle, Antoine Roussel and Jordie Benn is :

a) good management?

b) bad management?

c) absolutely awful management?

What, is it some big mystery that Benning is an awful contract negotiator? That was obvious 5 years ago.

Luckily it appears he has handed that job off to Chris Gear. If Benning was still involved, Jacob Markstrom would already be signed. Hopefully Gear continues to grind his UFA’s towards deadlines.

 

[MS]

What, is it some big mystery that Benning is an awful contract negotiator? That was obvious 5 years ago.

Luckily it appears he has handed that job off to Chris Gear. If Benning was still involved, Jacob Markstrom would already be signed. Hopefully Gear continues to grind his UFA’s towards deadlines.

Oh dear.

1) Chris Gear has been involved in contract negotiations for 4 years. Almost all of that $30 million was signed by ... Chris Gear. Including $12 million of it last summer.

Vancouver Canucks promote Chris Gear to assistant general manager

Chris Gear promoted to Assistant GM, Chief Legal Officer

2) If Jim Benning wants to sign a guy, the dollars we're offering are coming from Jim Benning.

3) If Jim Benning screwed over the franchise by being a terrible contract negotiator, shouldn't he be fired? Especially since being a terrible negotiator also applies to trade negotiations which Benning is still doing?

Like, if a guy is bad at contract negotiations, bad at trade negotiations, bad at pro scouting, bad at public relations ... why would you still want him as GM?

___________

Let's pretend, in the biggest CDC wet dream imaginable, that the core that Judd Brackett assembled here is on par with the 2009 Chicago Blackhawks.

Can you imagine if, instead of being in the position to sign Marian Hossa as a UFA to add to their young core, not only were they not signing Hossa but they were instead being forced to let quality roster players go for nothing, and trading away quality young assets and draft picks (maybe even including Sharp or Seabrook-level secondary core players) to try and get their team under the salary cap because they'd spent $30 million on garbage? How many Cups would they have won? How would that team have turned out? How would the GM that caused that situation be remembered?

Having your young core get Benning-ed is how you turn the 2009 Blackhawks into the 2017 Florida Panthers. And if that idiot is your GM, you fire him out of a cannon.

 

[Hoghandler]

Don’t believe Gear has been leading contract negotiations for 4 years. Believe it’s closer to 18 months.

I think you would be foolish to look at what has happened under Benning and clamour for his firing. After 20 years of poor drafting, he stepped in and instantly made this organization one to be reckoned with on the draft floor. His large network of connections around the amateur scouting community is absolutely priceless. Walking away from that because he’s a poor negotiator would be unwise.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be scouring the market for a president to come in and take a lot of responsibility away from Benning. He shouldn’t be negotiating anything of consequence going forward. Jim gets excited for the players when they get big contracts. It’s’s not good.

 

[Cogburn]

This is an interesting proposal. With his injury history, he may be an LTIR candidate too.

I would love to take credit, but it used to get proposed around here about 10 times a week. I'm just rehashing ideas to dump salary as best we can.

 

[supercanuck]

Flipside is that NJ might be banking on that as well and thus not be willing to trade him for a healthy Eriksson.

Would be kind of "funny" that, years later, the team will once again have both Luongo and Schneider on the payroll.

 

[604]

Gaudette's development will be big going foward. If he can go from middle six player to legit 2C that allows us to move Horvat.

Horvat for Pesce could be a great trade for both teams.

Hughes/Rathbone/Pesce would be an excellent defensive core.

Or we could keep both and be set at centre for the foreseeable future.

I don't want to trade Boeser for a dman but I'd rather trade him than Horvat for one.

 

[rypper]

Don’t believe Gear has been leading contract negotiations for 4 years. Believe it’s closer to 18 months.

I think you would be foolish to look at what has happened under Benning and clamour for his firing. After 20 years of poor drafting, he stepped in and instantly made this organization one to be reckoned with on the draft floor. His large network of connections around the amateur scouting community is absolutely priceless. Walking away from that because he’s a poor negotiator would be unwise.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be scouring the market for a president to come in and take a lot of responsibility away from Benning. He shouldn’t be negotiating anything of consequence going forward. Jim gets excited for the players when they get big contracts. It’s’s not good.

It sounds like by your own description that Jim Benning shouldn't be a general manager then, but perhaps he's better suited to be a director of amateur scouting or head scout.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Don’t believe Gear has been leading contract negotiations for 4 years. Believe it’s closer to 18 months.

I think you would be foolish to look at what has happened under Benning and clamour for his firing. After 20 years of poor drafting, he stepped in and instantly made this organization one to be reckoned with on the draft floor. His large network of connections around the amateur scouting community is absolutely priceless. Walking away from that because he’s a poor negotiator would be unwise.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be scouring the market for a president to come in and take a lot of responsibility away from Benning. He shouldn’t be negotiating anything of consequence going forward. Jim gets excited for the players when they get big contracts. It’s’s not good.

Will you just look at that adoration in the second paragraph!? Marvelous. Yet, strangely reminiscent...

As much as you may want to paint Benning as this mythical scouting savant, his impact on the drafts is known. Particularly, his deference to Brackett for all non-Juolevi 1st round picks. Surely you saw this in the close Brackett thread, though you have been absent for some time.

Anyway, dealing futures to shed bad contracts is poor practice. What's more, if all teams are trying to shed contracts at the same time, as you suggest, guess what happens to the price?

 

[m9]

Will you just look at that adoration in the second paragraph!? Marvelous. Yet, strangely reminiscent...

As much as you may want to paint Benning as this mythical scouting savant, his impact on the drafts is known. Particularly, his deference to Brackett for all non-Juolevi 1st round picks. Surely you saw this in the close Brackett thread, though you have been absent for some time.

Anyway, dealing futures to shed bad contracts is poor practice. What's more, if all teams are trying to shed contracts at the same time, as you suggest, guess what happens to the price?

Signing bad contracts is the poor practice.

I don't believe trading future assets to unload bad contracts should automatically be dismissed as poor practice, it depends on the situation and the return. I don't have faith in the management group effectively navigating such a move, but dismissing the premise completely doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Bettman Returnz]

^^^ that’s the main issue... none of us have faith in our management to pull off such a deal. We always seem to take 1 step forward, 2 steps back. Disappointing!

 

[UK Canuck]

Don’t believe Gear has been leading contract negotiations for 4 years. Believe it’s closer to 18 months.

I think you would be foolish to look at what has happened under Benning and clamour for his firing. After 20 years of poor drafting, he stepped in and instantly made this organization one to be reckoned with on the draft floor. His large network of connections around the amateur scouting community is absolutely priceless. Walking away from that because he’s a poor negotiator would be unwise.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be scouring the market for a president to come in and take a lot of responsibility away from Benning. He shouldn’t be negotiating anything of consequence going forward. Jim gets excited for the players when they get big contracts. It’s’s not good.

How can you have a guy as your GENERAL MANAGER who "shouldn't be negotiating anything of consequence going forward"?????

do you realise how insane that sounds?

 

[Hoghandler]

As much as you may want to paint Benning as this mythical scouting savant, his impact on the drafts is known. Particularly, his deference to Brackett for all non-Juolevi 1st round picks. Surely you saw this in the close Brackett thread, though you have been absent for some time.

Anyway, dealing futures to shed bad contracts is poor practice. What's more, if all teams are trying to shed contracts at the same time, as you suggest, guess what happens to the price?

No, his impact on our scouting isn’t unknown. Who do you think revamped the scouting staff, fired the director of amateur scouting and hired a young, progressive upstart in Judd Brackett? Let’s not forget, Benning was roundly criticized in this market for replacing Crawford with Brackett.

And if you don’t already see the tremendous value Benning’s Rolodex/connections are for the organization from the time him and his family spent on the scouting circuit, I’m not going to be able to convince you otherwise. That network is essentially priceless.

Benning was billed as a guy that could come in and turn this franchises draft fortunes around. Well, 6 years later, we can say unequivocally, he did just that.

I do not agree that pursuing moves to open up cap flexibility is a poor idea. Though I do agree the costs could be prohibitive.

 

[Hoghandler]

How can you have a guy as your GENERAL MANAGER who "shouldn't be negotiating anything of consequence going forward"?????

do you realise how insane that sounds?

As I said, I would welcome a guy come in and slot above Jim on the managerial side of things. Someone that excels in negotiations. A Mike Gillis like skillset.

Benning should slide over to the role he excels in, and enjoys. The amateur scouting side. Whether you want to change his title or not doesn’t really matter. Hire a president like Darcy Regier that has a solid trade/negotiating track record.

Negotiations and scouting have absolutely zero overlap in terms of skillsets. Just because Benning is hopeless at one of these things doesn’t mean he’s not a value at the other. Just like Mike Gillis was a tremendous negotiator, while overseeing arguably the worst scouting era in Canucks history.

The world isn’t binary. Gillis should have moved into a president role instead of being fired, while Benning should be moved into a scouting role before being fired.

 

[UK Canuck]

As I said, I would welcome a guy come in and slot above Jim on the managerial side of things. Someone that excels in negotiations. A Mike Gillis like skillset.

Benning should slide over to the role he excels in, and enjoys. The amateur scouting side. Whether you want to change his title or not doesn’t really matter. Hire a president like Darcy Regier that has a solid trade/negotiating track record.

Negotiations and scouting have absolutely zero overlap in terms of skillsets. Just because Benning is hopeless at one of these things doesn’t mean he’s not a value at the other. Just like Mike Gillis was a tremendous negotiator, while overseeing arguably the worst scouting era in Canucks history.

The world isn’t binary. Gillis should have moved into a president role instead of being fired, while Benning should be moved into a scouting role before being fired.

and when Benning rejects you taking his GM title away(which he will, which anyone would) what do you do, fire him or give in and put up with the god awful everything else other than drafting?

 

[UK Canuck]

also, you seem to have this premise than Jim Benning is irreplaceable and incomparable as a drafter and amateur scout, his record at the draft table over his 6 years is about league average in terms of NHL'ers drafted

 

[UK Canuck]

also, you seem to have this premise than Jim Benning is irreplaceable and incomparable as a drafter and amateur scout, his record at the draft table over his 6 years is about league average in terms of NHL'ers drafted

even though they completely balls'd up the 2015 1st round, the Bruins have drafted as many NHL'ers since Benning left to join the Canucks than we have and they've never had a top 10 pick, never mind 5 in a row

Pastrnak
Heinen
Donato
Bjork
DeBrusk
Carlo
McAvoy


vs

Virtanen
McCann
Boeser
Gaudette
Pettersson
Hughes
Demko

 

[racerjoe]

even though they completely balls'd up the 2015 1st round, the Bruins have drafted as many NHL'ers since Benning left to join the Canucks than we have and they've never had a top 10 pick, never mind 5 in a row

Pastrnak
Heinen
Donato
Bjork
DeBrusk
Carlo
McAvoy


vs

Virtanen
McCann
Boeser
Gaudette
Pettersson
Hughes
Demko

then look at the time Benning was with the bruins...

 

[Peter10]

No, his impact on our scouting isn’t unknown. Who do you think revamped the scouting staff, fired the director of amateur scouting and hired a young, progressive upstart in Judd Brackett? Let’s not forget, Benning was roundly criticized in this market for replacing Crawford with Brackett.

And if you don’t already see the tremendous value Benning’s Rolodex/connections are for the organization from the time him and his family spent on the scouting circuit, I’m not going to be able to convince you otherwise. That network is essentially priceless.

Benning was billed as a guy that could come in and turn this franchises draft fortunes around. Well, 6 years later, we can say unequivocally, he did just that.

I do not agree that pursuing moves to open up cap flexibility is a poor idea. Though I do agree the costs could be prohibitive.

Was he really criticized for firing Crawford? I cant remember that the market really cared.

I would also say, having 5 top 10 picks in 6 years helped his draft record a lot more than his "connections". After 6 Benning drafts there are just 2 non-first round picks on the team, barely establishing themselves as regulars.

 

[UK Canuck]

then look at the time Benning was with the bruins...

"hE's a GuRu!"

 

[Hoghandler]

and when Benning rejects you taking his GM title away(which he will, which anyone would) what do you do, fire him or give in and put up with the god awful everything else other than drafting?

Which is why you hire a president. No need to take any titles away.

Linden had top authority when Benning was GM. Hire a president that has final say and the structure will be the same as when Benning came aboard.

 

[MS]

Don’t believe Gear has been leading contract negotiations for 4 years. Believe it’s closer to 18 months.

'I believe' doesn't count for much. Extremely credibly media reports are 4 years as of his hiring, which would make sense given that Gilman was fired 4.5 years previous and someone had to be doing the contract work given that Jim Benning is too stupid to be executed by the state of Texas.

Even if we take your 'notion' of 18 months, that's $19 million in albatross contracts signed during that time.

I think you would be foolish to look at what has happened under Benning and clamour for his firing. After 20 years of poor drafting, he stepped in and instantly made this organization one to be reckoned with on the draft floor. His large network of connections around the amateur scouting community is absolutely priceless. Walking away from that because he’s a poor negotiator would be unwise.

He and Linden hired a new head scout who did a good job and saved his ass, then forced out that new head scout and gave Ron Delorme - the guy primarily responsible for the 20 years of poor drafting you're referring to - an increased role.

And if Benning had had his way we'd have taken Juolevi and Glass with consecutive top-5 picks. The guy can't scout his way out of a paper bag, and Boston was the worst-drafting team in the NHL when he was running the show there.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t be scouring the market for a president to come in and take a lot of responsibility away from Benning. He shouldn’t be negotiating anything of consequence going forward. Jim gets excited for the players when they get big contracts. It’s’s not good.

If your GM shouldn't be involved in contract negotiations or trade negotiations, why the hell should he be an NHL GM?

Your argument seems to be that we should have a completely incompetent buffoon as GM running all aspects of the hockey side of the organization because he's good at the one tiny little thing of setting parameters for the entry draft. And, of course, a mountain of evidence exists that he isn't even good at that.

 

[MS]

also, you seem to have this premise than Jim Benning is irreplaceable and incomparable as a drafter and amateur scout, his record at the draft table over his 6 years is about league average in terms of NHL'ers drafted

If Trevor Linden hadn't intervened to allow Brackett to pick Pettersson, our drafting record would be below-average under Benning.

 

[UK Canuck]

Which is why you hire a president. No need to take any titles away.

Linden had top authority when Benning was GM. Hire a president that has final say and the structure will be the same as when Benning came aboard.

"hey Jim, this is Fred(or Brian or whatever name you want) he's here to make all the important decisions outside of drafting because you're a bumbling idiot with trades, contracts etc, you can still keep your GM title but you won't actually be doing anything other than watching draft film all year, you wont be allowed near a company phone line and we've banned you from talking to other GM's, ok?"

I'm sure that'll do down well

 

[MS]

"hey Jim, this is Fred(or Brian or whatever name you want) he's here to make all the important decisions outside of drafting because you're a bumbling idiot with trades, contracts etc, you can still keep your GM title but you won't actually be doing anything other than watching draft film all year, you wont be allowed near a company phone line and we've banned you from talking to other GM's, ok?"

I'm sure that'll do down well

This is hilarious.

We've reached the point where the argument is now that we should take all of Jim Benning's GM responsibilities away from him because he's incompetent at them, but we should still keep him as GM because he's a drafting guru ... who pushed to draft Olli Juolevi and Cody Glass ahead of Matthew Tkachuk and Elias Pettersson with consecutive top-5 picks.