HF Habs: 2020 Montreal Canadiens Off-Season Thread part 3

[calder candidate]

No offense, but this type of mentality isn’t based on logic.

you can’t simply pick one item that causes a dis-balance and fix it. You can’t address the tax situation and then completely ignore other factors that create issues among the teams.

maybe they should address tax issues. Maybe they should also then allow a max for team spending. That way teams like Montreal and Toronto have to account the amount of money they spend on coaching, and staff that far exceeds other markets.

No offense but where did I mention that there weren’t any other issues or that I wouldn’t do anything about it, this was only about the cap situation and the dis-balance it create... Also why couldn’t you fix one thing that cause a dis-balance sometimes you have to take step in the right direction... I haven’t many occasions were they get it 100% right the first time or even at the second go around, it is usually a process...
The taxes issues is the biggest imbalance so I fix that first you could just as easily fix the total spending at the same time because it would need to be fixed but clearly all the team with lot of money haven’t seem to really have been able to taken advantage of it, so if their is one thing I could fix it wouldn’t the first I address...

 

[Kriss E]

It's not BS. Leafs breed their talent and they had to pay them while the Lightning also breed their talent and have very good AAV's. We had to pay Price and Subban way more than others with less taxes would have.

Also, it's not linear either. Building a culture of winning also helps like you said but it's deeper than your 2d approach. You prefer to throw the organization under the bus more often than not.

Well you just said it, it aint linear. For some getting the absolute most money will be their MO, for others they're happy with a discount to be competitive.
You said teams like ours have to overpay though, and thats not always true.

 

[donghabs98]

Our D is solid (Not bad but not great either). Our wings need help though, that is no doubt an area for improvement. Upgrading on depth pieces wouldn't be bad either as we saw in the playoffs the issue we had with icing a decent 4th line once injuries hit. That shouldn't be a top priority though and should be done towards the end of free agency when leftover players will be looking for any type of deal.

 

[donghabs98]

Here's a question, what are everyone's top 3 UFAs you want the Habs to pursue?

 

[Treb]

Here's a question, what are everyone's top 3 UFAs you want the Habs to pursue?

Hoffman, Dadonov and Toffoli. Or Rakell via trade.

If money allows after that and re-signing Mete (trade Domi), go after Maroon or Pitlick for the 4th line.

 

[Gains]

Here's a question, what are everyone's top 3 UFAs you want the Habs to pursue?

1. Hoffman (Good PP player)
2. Simmonds (I want more grit on the 4th line than Byron - Evans - Lehkonen)

 

[Lshap]

Hoffman, Dadonov and Toffoli. Or Rakell via trade.

If money allows after that and re-signing Mete (trade Domi), go after Maroon or Pitlick for the 4th line.

This is my list exactly. These players are the best natural goal scorers, which should be our #1 priority.

 

[EdAVSfan]

No offense but where did I mention that there weren’t any other issues or that I wouldn’t do anything about it, this was only about the cap situation and the dis-balance it create... Also why couldn’t you fix one thing that cause a dis-balance sometimes you have to take step in the right direction... I haven’t many occasions were they get it 100% right the first time or even at the second go around, it is usually a process...
The taxes issues is the biggest imbalance so I fix that first you could just as easily fix the total spending at the same time because it would need to be fixed but clearly all the team with lot of money haven’t seem to really have been able to taken advantage of it, so if their is one thing I could fix it wouldn’t the first I address...

Because that’s the point. There is never a way to create a proper balance. This is a league of richer owners and poorer owners. Everyone has to function within the same set of rules.

There will always be issues. And “fixing” the tax situation isn’t a way to bring more parity to the league.

Other than Tampa (where I feel like it’s far more about the culture of that organization rather than tax-related) what other organizations are getting this immense benefit from taxation?

 

[le_sean]

Yeah we should sign Hoffman, so he and his girlfriend can come piss off all of the guys and their wives. Great for morale.

 

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

This is my list exactly. These players are the best natural goal scorers, which should be our #1 priority.

Hoffman is a LW though.
We can't have Drouin or Tatar playing 3rd line.

And Drouin is bad enough as it is in his natural position, so I don't want him playing off wing on the right.

Dadonov is interesting depending on cost, and he would help Romanov acclimate.

But Tofolli is the way to go if the bigger fish are no longer an option due to age and position.

 

[Mike Towers]

1. Hoffman (Good PP player)
2. Simmonds (I want more grit on the 4th line than Byron - Evans - Lehkonen)

If you want more grit just sign Matt Martin he throws way more hits than Simmonds.

 

[OB5]

I live in Hoffman and Dadonov's market and have seen a ton of them over the course of their Panthers careers and given the choice between the two I 100% pick Dadonov. He has more bite, is better defensively and still produces at a similar clip to Hoffman.

 

[calder candidate]

Because that’s the point. There is never a way to create a proper balance. This is a league of richer owners and poorer owners. Everyone has to function within the same set of rules.

There will always be issues. And “fixing” the tax situation isn’t a way to bring more parity to the league.

Other than Tampa (where I feel like it’s far more about the culture of that organization rather than tax-related) what other organizations are getting this immense benefit from taxation?

Their is a ~13% spread in the taxes between different jurisdictions...
Vegas, TB, Dallas, Florida and Nashville would all be almost tie for lowest taxes and MTL, TOR and OTT for the most...ex:Weber lose about 762k$ to income to taxes when he got traded to MTL... There is a lot more than just taxes that goes into the choice a player make but it is a significant advantage negociating if you can under cut a rival offer by 10% without affecting the player... both team are dealing with the same salary cap constraints but not the same fiscal rules... that why MTL usually end up paying a ~10% premium to most player.

 

[DAChampion]

It may be impossible for the NHL to completely fix the tax issue, but it would be easy for them to mitigate it.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Their is a ~13% spread in the taxes between different jurisdictions...
Vegas, TB, Dallas, Florida and Nashville would all be almost tie for lowest taxes and MTL, TOR and OTT for the most...ex:Weber lose about 762k$ to income to taxes when he got traded to MTL... There is a lot more than just taxes that goes into the choice a player make but it is a significant advantage negociating if you can under cut a rival offer by 10% without affecting the player... both team are dealing with the same salary cap constraints but not the same fiscal rules... that why MTL usually end up paying a ~10% premium to most player.

I truly believe that Montreal pays more for different reasons. Wanting to play in Montreal or even Toronto requires a certain type of player. There’s far more scrutiny and so players likely want to be more compensated to go there.

Other than Tampa, I cant really think of any team that’s exploiting this tax advantage.
Do we have any clear examples of players outright saying they need to get paid more from one organization rather than another?

I would bet that the quality of the team is what gets players to sign for less, rather than the tax advantage.

I don’t see Nashville, Dallas or Florida getting this type of advantage.

 

[euhchepas]

I truly believe that Montreal pays more for different reasons. Wanting to play in Montreal or even Toronto requires a certain type of player. There’s far more scrutiny and so players likely want to be more compensated to go there.

Other than Tampa, I cant really think of any team that’s exploiting this tax advantage.
Do we have any clear examples of players outright saying they need to get paid more from one organization rather than another?

I would bet that the quality of the team is what gets players to sign for less, rather than the tax advantage.

I don’t see Nashville, Dallas or Florida getting this type of advantage.

Radulov signed in Dallas for the exact contract bergevin was offering him but it wasn't enough in montreal

 

[smirob]

I think we need to be looking to next offseason and realizing we might be in a pinch when we need to give raises to Petry, Danault and Gallagher....I'm not convinced Danault or Petry won't be tempted by free agency to be completely honest. I would look at something along the lines of:

Assuming MTL isn't included in his M-NTC....what about taking on Brandon Sutter if Vancouver includes Virtanen in the deal (Armia type trade)
Sutter has another year at 4.35M and Virtanen will probably come in under 3M on a 2-3 year deal....

Trade Danault in a deal for a youngish RHD who can replace Petry after this season if we need cap space. (Open to suggestions on the RHD)

Trade Domi to CLB for Josh Anderson + (sign to a 3 year 2.75M-3M)

Sign M. Koivu to a one year 1M deal (insurance at centre)

Leaves us with around 1.7M for this season...

Tatar-Suzuki-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Anderson
Lehkonen-Koivu-Virtanen
Byron-Sutter-Armia

Chairot-Weber
Edmonsun-Petry
Romanov-RHD

Obviously it's not big name players, but my hope is we would be buying low on Anderson and Virtanen and they can bring some much needed grit.

Next year we would lose the Sutter/Koivu/Allen cap hits (+/- 9M), with Gallagher and Tatar as the only 'big' UFAs to sign.
If Poehling can play a big role in Laval, my hope is that he will be able to step up and play a 3C role for us the year after.

**I'm not assuming we allow Petry to walk at free agency. Hopefully we could get a young RHD who can replace him this season and we can move Petry for something of value at TDL.

 

[calder candidate]

I truly believe that Montreal pays more for different reasons. Wanting to play in Montreal or even Toronto requires a certain type of player. There’s far more scrutiny and so players likely want to be more compensated to go there.

Other than Tampa, I cant really think of any team that’s exploiting this tax advantage.
Do we have any clear examples of players outright saying they need to get paid more from one organization rather than another?

I would bet that the quality of the team is what gets players to sign for less, rather than the tax advantage.

I don’t see Nashville, Dallas or Florida getting this type of advantage.

I already agreed that there is more to just taxes that does into the decision... media and fan pressure, immigration issues/work visa (wife), language issues, whether, family, school for kids, future teammate, a winning or contending team. The fact remains that their are like ~9 contending team maybe ~9 bottom feeder and ~13 team that are fighting for the playoff. Look at those team they all have elite player and not of team are making 10M$ even when the market had already been set... team performance will raise and fall regardless where they are on the spectrum having low taxes will always be a positive...

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

Stop with Hoffman he won't join the Habs with the drama that happened in Ottawa. Habs org hate drama

 

[Tighthead]

Their is a ~13% spread in the taxes between different jurisdictions...
Vegas, TB, Dallas, Florida and Nashville would all be almost tie for lowest taxes and MTL, TOR and OTT for the most...ex:Weber lose about 762k$ to income to taxes when he got traded to MTL... There is a lot more than just taxes that goes into the choice a player make but it is a significant advantage negociating if you can under cut a rival offer by 10% without affecting the player... both team are dealing with the same salary cap constraints but not the same fiscal rules... that why MTL usually end up paying a ~10% premium to most player.

You are basing your tax calculation solely on the tax rate. Is it your position that the players utilize zero tax strategies to reduce their tax burden?

Don’t you think your approach is wildly simplistic for people earning millions per year? I don’t know anyone in that tax bracket that doesn’t have a sophisticated tax avoidance plan in place.

Did you base your Weber calculation in what he actually paid, or just your own assumptions?m

The Canucks have had several players over the years who resides across the line in Washington for tax purposes. How would you calculate that into your cap?

 

[calder candidate]

You are basing your tax calculation solely on the tax rate. Is it your position that the players utilize zero tax strategies to reduce their tax burden?

Don’t you think your approach is wildly simplistic for people earning millions per year? I don’t know anyone in that tax bracket that doesn’t have a sophisticated tax avoidance plan in place.

Did you base your Weber calculation in what he actually paid, or just your own assumptions?

It is based on is base salary 6m$.
That what was reported at the time that is also what the quick math will give you since it should be about 100k per million and that what the online calculator will give you.
I’m sure all these guys have complex and sophisticated taxes strategy, they need to file taxes in every jurisdiction that they play in (probably the reason FLA/TB is in the east with OTT, TOR, MTL make sense fiscally and not geographically) But the guy in Vegas, Nashville or Dallas will also look to use all the possible loop holes, as the guy in Montreal or Toronto but he is starting with a 10% head start...

 

[Tighthead]

That what was reported at the time that is also what the quick math will give you since it should be about 100k per million and that what the online calculator will give you.
I’m sure all these guys have complex and sophisticated taxes strategy, they need to file taxes in every jurisdiction that they play in (probably the reason FLA/TB is in the east with OTT, TOR, MTL make sense fiscally and not geographically) But the guy in Vegas, Nashville or Dallas will also look to use all the possible loop holes, as the guy in Montreal or Toronto but he is starting with a 10% head start...

If you are of the opinion that they all have complex tax strategies, why are you basing your numbers solely on gross tax rate? To I are basically admitting your assumption is flawed.

Are you also assuming that each jurisdiction offers identical strategies?

You have just acknowledged that the actual tax paid can’t be calculated by the gross tax rate due to individual tax planning. It seems senseless to, at the same time, advocate for a salary cap based on that same gross tax rate.

Why such a simple calculation for an admittedly complex issue?

How would you factor residency into calculating the cap? Some players in Canada are able to maintain USA residency.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

Yeah we should sign Hoffman, so he and his girlfriend can come piss off all of the guys and their wives. Great for morale.

If they are not married, I suspect she is on a shorter leash by now. Is she going to keep getting him traded away everywhere he plays? If so, might as well invest in an RV.

There is this one by Porsche goes for 2 mil.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It is based on is base salary 6m$.
That what was reported at the time that is also what the quick math will give you since it should be about 100k per million and that what the online calculator will give you.
I’m sure all these guys have complex and sophisticated taxes strategy, they need to file taxes in every jurisdiction that they play in (probably the reason FLA/TB is in the east with OTT, TOR, MTL make sense fiscally and not geographically) But the guy in Vegas, Nashville or Dallas will also look to use all the possible loop holes, as the guy in Montreal or Toronto but he is starting with a 10% head start...

Not necessarily, look up the Canada/US Tax treaty.

Florida and Tampa are in the same division as Toronto, Montreal and Boston for revenue reasons. Its why those teams always go on road trips with stops in Florida during peak travel season.

There are also tax planning options available in Canada that simply don't exist in the US. Its a massively overstated issue.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

I think we need to be looking to next offseason and realizing we might be in a pinch when we need to give raises to Petry, Danault and Gallagher....I'm not convinced Danault or Petry won't be tempted by free agency to be completely honest. I would look at something along the lines of:

Assuming MTL isn't included in his M-NTC....what about taking on Brandon Sutter if Vancouver includes Virtanen in the deal (Armia type trade)
Sutter has another year at 4.35M and Virtanen will probably come in under 3M on a 2-3 year deal....

Trade Danault in a deal for a youngish RHD who can replace Petry after this season if we need cap space. (Open to suggestions on the RHD)

Trade Domi to CLB for Josh Anderson + (sign to a 3 year 2.75M-3M)

Sign M. Koivu to a one year 1M deal (insurance at centre)

Leaves us with around 1.7M for this season...

Tatar-Suzuki-Gallagher
Drouin-Kotkaniemi-Anderson
Lehkonen-Koivu-Virtanen
Byron-Sutter-Armia

Chairot-Weber
Edmonsun-Petry
Romanov-RHD

Obviously it's not big name players, but my hope is we would be buying low on Anderson and Virtanen and they can bring some much needed grit.

Next year we would lose the Sutter/Koivu/Allen cap hits (+/- 9M), with Gallagher and Tatar as the only 'big' UFAs to sign.
If Poehling can play a big role in Laval, my hope is that he will be able to step up and play a 3C role for us the year after.

**I'm not assuming we allow Petry to walk at free agency. Hopefully we could get a young RHD who can replace him this season and we can move Petry for something of value at TDL.

So the plan is to add 4 more bottom 6 players.

wow...