Prospect Info: 2020 2nd Rd Selection - #59 OA (via OTT) - C Roni Hirvonen (Assat) - 5'9 164

[Funk21]

*Gestures broadly at Lou/Hunters drafts filled with players who never came close to NHL ice*

Are there players in any draft class with both size and skill.....hmmm. Perhaps if we drafted a few of those too.

 

[Rielly Good]

plus you are pointing out the most elite players in the game to make your point. That seem reasonable..,,


How big is Hedman, Cernak, Sergachev, Killorn, Maroon?


Yea we need skill but we also need some size and toughness.

I can point out size on our team aswell, Rielly, Muzzin, Holl, Matthews, Mikayev, Spezza, JT are all over 6'1"

 

[Rielly Good]

Are there players in any draft class with both size and skill.....hmmm. Perhaps if we drafted a few of those too.

Isnt that how you end up getting Tyler Biggs?

shouldn't you go for skill, work ethic and Hockey IQ?

 

[Fogelhund]

plus you are pointing out the most elite players in the game to make your point. That seem reasonable..,,


How big is Hedman, Cernak, Sergachev, Killorn, Maroon?


Yea we need skill but we also need some size and toughness.

I don't disagree with your premise, we need size and toughness....

BUT..

Our draft now, isn't addressing our immediate need.

Killorn was drafted in 2007, didn't become a full time player until 2013/14 Drafted by Tampa

Cernak/Sergachev/Maroon were trades/Free Agents... The majority of your examples, and how Tampa built their grit, was trades, and Free Agents

Goodrow and McDonagh were important factors too.


All this being said, we seemed to get great value out of the picks we made, that's pretty hard to argue. That five-six years that it might take for a Killorn to develop are irrelevant to this discussion and team for some time. If Dubas can't turn this team into a winner, he won't be around six seasons from now.

This team wasn't getting fixed at this draft. If you had that expectation, then it's your fault for setting yourself up for failure.... this was always going to be about trades, and Free Agents.. the shiny new draft toys will be fun to watch... at least those who play this year, but nothing more for some time, for our Leafs.

We've got plenty of currency, in skilled prospects, to trade for grit if necessary... look at how Tampa actually obtained their key players you mentioned, plus Goodrow/McDonagh...

That this team needs size and toughness, is known to all... Some people are freaking out, and frankly it's dumb. If Dubas fails to address those needs, by the time this squad fields their next regular season game, freak out. If he doesn't address any needs, some time before November... freak out...... It's Dubas time to show if he has what it takes, to move forward.... his drafting has been excellent. His trades have been pretty good too.... People can argue that he's overpaid some players, and there are varying opinions... We need some changes in bodies, and most importantly, our existing core, needs to learn to play harder. Matthews is a pretty big boy, and needs to start playing like that... and he started to... at times.. Matthews needs to become a leader in all ways.. Nylander has the body to play harder too...

Also note... we might not get all of the parts we need in one offseason, but I think everyone can agree, he sure better make some significant progress, or even those most supportive people of Dubas, will turn on him.

 

[Merrrlin]

Dubas draft mini player me want size and hit

 

[AllDay28]

What this team needs is a human eraser like Luke Schenn. The way he changed the leafs defense with his human erasing ability is why he’s been a Leaf for 10+... wait a sec

(also yes I know he won a cup and I’m happy for him)

 

[7even]

At the time we had no JT and both Velano and Wilde had an outstanding D+1. Read my response to another genius who posted that. Anything out of context will make someone look bad. Let me know how it goes when we lose again in the first round And the same questions are being asked as we have wasted another season, if we make it that is!

The flaw in your post was not identifying LHD as a needles position, it was 1) being wrong on the quality of prospect Sandin was and 2) having a needlessly strong opinion of a player without knowing anything about him. Context has nothing to do with either of those. And those are mistakes you are repeating.

 

[WillNy29]

I like dubas' picks and I am not coming from a place of ignorance, but has there been an elite two way player under 6'0? Roni is described as a two-way player so I was just wondering.

Brad Marchand
Leaf Legend Dave Keon

 

[Martin Skoula]

Are there players in any draft class with both size and skill.....hmmm. Perhaps if we drafted a few of those too.

Next time we have a top-5 pick I'm sure we will. Guys that have size IQ work ethic and skill aren't usually available at 15.

 

[Funk21]

Next time we have a top-5 pick I'm sure we will. Guys that have size IQ work ethic and skill aren't usually available at 15.

I think MB from the Habs would disagree with you. That is a player we should have taken.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I think MB from the Habs would disagree with you. That is a player we should have taken.

Guhle can't make a breakout pass to save his life. He would have been neck and neck with Sanderson if he had the IQ we're looking for.

 

[LeafChief]

This is a Hirvonen thread. I'm sure there are other threads to cry about draft philosophy in with the other bots.

 

[AllDay28]

Do people know most of these heights are lies anyways?

for example “Mike Duco”. Met him and interacted with him and his DB says he’s 5’10 and as someone who’s 6’0 I can tell you he is lucky to be 5’9

 

[Dekes For Days]

Are there players in any draft class with both size and skill.....

Yeah, and they're gone way before pick #59.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Meet Maple Leafs draft pick Roni Hirvonen: Patient and skilled on ice and water - The Athletic

If this year’s draft was any indication, the Leafs are still all-in on hockey IQ. Leafs director of amateur scouting John Lilley repeatedly used the term “smart” in his assessment of Hirvonen. In his pre-draft Top 100 ranking, The Athletic’s Scott Wheeler said Hirvonen plays a “modern, crafty game.”

This past season with Assat, where he was the only 17-year-old playing in Finland’s top league, Hirvonen had five goals and 16 points in 52 games while averaging just 14:39 of ice time, ninth among Assat forwards.

“He can read the game, anticipate and then he doesn’t lock his options with the puck,” said Martikainen. “He can still look like he’s shooting and read the other team pretty well. If somebody is going to block the shot, he’s going fake. If somebody is going to open up to passing lane, he can pass.”

“I know he’s not a bigger kid but he’s certainly competitive. Hard on pucks,” said Lilley.

Martikainen sees that competitive edge in his ability to battle along the wall, intelligent body positioning and an understanding of when to make contact. He believes Hirvonen’s shot needs to get harder. Lilley thinks Hirvonen can get faster, but he already likes his edge work.

..........................

Hirvonen played as a centre last season, as he has throughout his career. His coaches were encouraged by the fact he won 53.3 percent of his faceoffs, yet Assat has also experimented with him on the wing to better utilize his playmaking. He’s a regular on the team’s second power-play unit.

After just one point in six games to start the season, he has two goals and one assist in his past three games.

“I haven’t gotten that many points, but I think they will come when I continue to play and our team gets better,” said Hirvonen. “Now, we’re not doing that well as a team. But that will improve, for sure.”

He now has five goals and eight points in 18 games. He said he’s been breaking down video of his game with the Leafs development staff to better understand how to find more space on the ice and execute his vision.

Martikainen believes Hirvonen will be ready for North American hockey in 2022. The way the NHL continues to trend towards favouring small, skilled players can only help Hirvonen. He needs to develop more speed, but his ability to make quick decisions while reading the game should buy him some time.

“Looking at today’s NHL, you have to have a speedy mind,” said Martikainen. “In that sense, he would already be ready to play in the NHL”

For now, Hirvonen will continue to play in Finland. Another summer will come, and Hirvonen will once again make the drive north to the lake.

“When you score a goal, it’s a similar feeling to getting a good catch,” he said. “Because the goals don’t always come very (often).”

 

[LeafChief]

 

[Cor]

Isnt that how you end up getting Tyler Biggs?

shouldn't you go for skill, work ethic and Hockey IQ?

With the Leafs draft history of big guys, I have no clue how people are still crying about wanting to do the same thing.

Korshkov (still developing well, but you expect more, sooner, from a first pick of the second round)
Rasanen
Gordeev
Greenway
Middleton
Mattinen
Nielsen
Desrochers
Gauthier
Biggs
Ross

and so on and so forth

 

[LeafChief]

With the Leafs draft history of big guys, I have no clue how people are still crying about wanting to do the same thing.

Korshkov (still developing well, but you expect more, sooner, from a first pick of the second round)
Rasanen
Gordeev
Greenway
Middleton
Mattinen
Nielsen
Desrochers
Gauthier
Biggs
Ross

and so on and so forth

It really makes no sense.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

With the Leafs draft history of big guys, I have no clue how people are still crying about wanting to do the same thing.

Korshkov (still developing well, but you expect more, sooner, from a first pick of the second round)
Rasanen
Gordeev
Greenway
Middleton
Mattinen
Nielsen
Desrochers
Gauthier
Biggs
Ross

and so on and so forth

To play Devil's advocate, you could also criticize the smaller skilled players Hunter drafted. Bracco, Timashov, Brooks, Walker, and Dzierkals don't look great either. Hunter is obviously a poor evaluator for talent at the NHL level, so I think it's fair to say if/when Dubas decides to go bigger in his drafts, it will actually yield results. I do think it's mostly a coincidence that Dubas has drafted mostly smaller players, and he has expressed that his part of his philosophy is absolutely being open to drafting bigger players

 

[supermann_98]

Guhle can't make a breakout pass to save his life. He would have been neck and neck with Sanderson if he had the IQ we're looking for.

Lol he also can’t hit the net with his shot. He makes Dion look like Brett Hull in that regard

 

[Martin Skoula]

To play Devil's advocate, you could also criticize the smaller skilled players Hunter drafted. Bracco, Timashov, Brooks, Walker, and Dzierkals don't look great either. Hunter is obviously a poor evaluator for talent at the NHL level, so I think it's fair to say if/when Dubas decides to go bigger in his drafts, it will actually yield results. I do think it's mostly a coincidence that Dubas has drafted mostly smaller players, and he has expressed that his part of his philosophy is absolutely being open to drafting bigger players

Timashov, Brooks, Bracco, and Dzierkals at least made the pros and in a worst case scenario give you some AAAA players to keep your farm team strong. Most of the big picks never even made it to pro hockey.

 

[Cor]

Lol he also can’t hit the net with his shot. He makes Dion look like Brett Hull in that regard

I personally liked William Wallinder more than Guhle.

I think people were too tough on Schneider

 

[stickty111]

To play Devil's advocate, you could also criticize the smaller skilled players Hunter drafted. Bracco, Timashov, Brooks, Walker, and Dzierkals don't look great either. Hunter is obviously a poor evaluator for talent at the NHL level, so I think it's fair to say if/when Dubas decides to go bigger in his drafts, it will actually yield results. I do think it's mostly a coincidence that Dubas has drafted mostly smaller players, and he has expressed that his part of his philosophy is absolutely being open to drafting bigger players

I'm with you. When Dubas does go bigger in his drafts, I trust it will be a good player. Whats common about his drafts? Skill yes but bigger requirement is IQ. There is no way Dubas passes up a bigger player who has the IQ he is looking for.

 

[Morgs]

I'm with you. When Dubas does go bigger in his drafts, I trust it will be a good player. Whats common about his drafts? Skill yes but bigger requirement is IQ. There is no way Dubas passes up a bigger player who has the IQ he is looking for.

We also have to remember when it comes to drafting "bigger" players the ones that have the qualities that Dubas looks for (IQ, skill, skating, determination, production, etc) in a player are normally gone within the first 10 or 15 picks because as much as we'd want guys like that, so does everyone else. Very rarely do teams find Colton Parayko's outside the top-15, and if they're drafting for that mold they'll 99% of the time end up with guys like Neilsen or Middleton instead.

 

[Martin Skoula]

We also have to remember when it comes to drafting "bigger" players the ones that have the qualities that Dubas looks for (IQ, skill, skating, determination, production, etc) in a player are normally gone within the first 10 or 15 picks because as much as we'd want guys like that, so does everyone else. Very rarely do teams find Colton Parayko's outside the top-15, and if they're drafting for that mold they'll 99% of the time end up with guys like Neilsen or Middleton instead.

It's worth taking those guys, just not 15th overall. You just have to be very strict about disqualifiers, for example Nielsen's bad footwork isn't something that's going to get fixed regardless of how much faster Barb can make him. If a guy can't make a breakout pass, odds are he isn't going to suddenly get faster at thinking at 20.

But a guy like Liljegren can grow an inch and add 20 pounds to his frame.