Speculation: 2020-21 LA Kings News/Roster/Rumors Discussion Part VI

[Raccoon Jesus]

Why are we pretending these moves are happening in a vacuum? @tomd you are absolutely the first in line to assault Blake at every opportunity--now you want him to bring in a total malcontent and a guy who is a year or so from UFA and pressuring to go home to detroit just like Trouba did to NY?

laine is a finishing move for a team with an established culture and needs a sniper. Hell even in CB it didn't work, why would he suddenly figure it out in LA?

Werenski is a stellar player and on ABILITY a perfect fit but everything else screams you're going to lose him.

And that's without commenting on the value. No one misunderstands 'you have to give to get.' No one is overrating the prospects in this case. They're just shortsighted moves that are flat out GAMBLES.

Yes, the 'holes' are obvious--and they haven't had a chance to fill quite yet. For all we know those wingers emerge at camp. I'm not in favor of opening other manholes when we haven't even established Byfield, Turcotte, culture. You reference the Schenn/Simmonds trade--that was made after the team made the playoffs twice in a row. You know that.

 

[Ghetty Green]

And there it is....prospects >>>> established stars who are under 25 years old. Only on HF is such a world possible.

Lol "at there it is"

Terrible posting

 

[deaderhead28]

I think they wrote off making moves for Kopitar and Doughty when Muzzin was traded. It signaled the end of contention with that core of players.

Probably should listen to Blake sometime,those players are included for another run per Blake.

 

[unicornpig]

Why are people arguing with tomd, like talking to a block wall

 

[Statto]

The holes are pretty obvious. A top 4 LHD and at least 1 top 6 RW and 1 top 6 LW. And that assumes the Kings will "gift" the 2c spot to Byfield and hope he is ready for it. We'll see but it would sure help him if he had a winger or two who actually has had success at the NHL level.

On defense, I don't think it is much of an exaggeration to say that if the Kings had had a legit top 4 LHD this season they would have probably 3-5 additional wins. MacDermid alone cost the Kings that many games. Blake must fill that hole this summer.

And I'm not advocating trading Byfield but as a GM Blake has to be open to anything that would help the team in both the short and long term. As an example (and it is just an example), if Columbus came to the Kings and proposed Werenski and Laine for Byfield, Bjornfot, and another player then the Kings would be nuts not to seriously consider that. But yes, it would take that type of trade to move Byfield...but he IS movable.

That’s the sort of move that Jim Fox would describe as getting you closer to the play-offs but farther away from the Stanley Cup....

 

[Statto]

You criminally underrate both Laine and Werenski and overrate Bjornfot and Byfield. A little too much homerism for my taste but ok. It is clear that your method of improvement is through years of drafting. That's fine. The benefit of that approach will be the firing of both Blake and Luc in a year or two when the team still sucks. I trust the next management team will be a little more serious about their commitments to the fans.

No one under rates Laines talent, it’s the rest of the package. We’ve complained about team culture all year so why bring in a guy that would make the team culture worse and only show up when the mood strikes him? I’m not interested in a player that will pout when he doesn’t like what line he is on an/or his assignments for the evening. I wouldn’t take the guy for a 7th round pick unless we were going to instantly flip him.

 

[Reclamation Project]

I wouldn't trade Byfield for Werenski AND Laine.........

 

[Docgonzo]

What's the opposite of homerism?

Tomdism?

 

[KingsFan7824]

You realize that Laine and Werenski are both 23 years old, right? Is that really "aging the core"? Or is it improving it immeasurably?

And show me your posts from 2011 where DL added Richards (26) for Schenn (20) and Simmonds (23). Setting aside that Richards was a drug addicted alcoholic at the time of the trade, was that not "aging the core"?

Assuming the core was Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick, at the end of the 10-11 season:

Brown was 26, with 513 GP.
Kopitar was 23, with 393 GP.
Doughty was 21, with 239 GP.
Quick was 25, with 180 GP.

Today, at the end of 20-21, the only forwards that have at least 393 GP on the roster are Brown and Kopitar. The only defensemen with at least 239 GP are Doughty and Maatta. The only goalie with at least 180 GP is Quick. The only players in general with at least 180 GP are Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Maatta, Athanasiou, Kempe, and Iafallo. The Kings have an exceedingly inexperienced roster.

The leading GP player from the post-DL drafts is Vilardi at 61 games.

If Kopitar, etc are still the core, then you make a Werenski/Laine type trade, or whatever the hell it would be. If the core has yet to play the equivalent of 1 full NHL season yet, then that kind of trade is Palffy again. Nice, shiny, new, fun, makes the team better today, but probably won't be enough. Richards wasn't even enough. DL's idea wasn't working in 11-12. They were still 3 or 4 moves away, and Sutter wasn't a thought. DL was fully intent on going ahead with Murray. If not, TM should've been fired before the season as part of a plan of going all in.

If Kopitrar, etc, aren't the core, why are they still here? Because you can't move the contracts. Or you could, but you're not getting anything for them. You're not getting a top C prospect for Kopitar. You're not getting a top D prospect for Doughty. Those would be the very players the team acquiring Kopitar or Doughty would need to offset the cap space that's now gone. At best, you're probably getting a couple guys for each making $5m at the age of 27.

Why did they re-sign Doughty? Because they had already re-signed Quick, Brown, and Kopitar for the Cups, and weren't going to let one of the great players in franchise history walk if he willingly wanted to stay, but more importantly, because they had made the playoffs in 17-18. They were going to continue to try to make the playoffs in the future. That's why they were trying to add to the team in the summer of 2018. We all think the moves were dumb, even the ones that weren't made, but they were done with the playoffs in mind.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Only way I’m trading for Laine is if it’s a cheap “show me” deal. The guy is an enigma and may be out of the NHL in 3 years.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Only way I’m trading for Laine is if it’s a cheap “show me” deal. The guy is an enigma and may be out of the NHL in 3 years.

This....

But...I would trade almost any prospect for him, with the exception of Byfield or Turcotte possibly...... CBS would never do it, and would want more....so it's a moot point.....

 

[KingTech]

Why are we pretending these moves are happening in a vacuum? @tomd laine is a finishing move for a team with an established culture and needs a sniper. Hell even in CB it didn't work, why would he suddenly figure it out in LA?

The difference with Laine is simple he wants to play in La Motivation is a key If the rumor is true and he wants to be in la that would be a huge difference. A motivated Laine with something to prove is justwhat this team needs a player who can score goals.

 

[BigKing]

The difference with Laine is simple he wants to play in La Motivation is a key If the rumor is true and he wants to be in la that would be a huge difference. A motivated Laine with something to prove is justwhat this team needs a player who can score goals.

100% the type of guy you have to really wonder about when it comes to "Why does he want to play in LA?"

RFA on a $6.75MM cap hit. Trending down for three season's in a row with a horrific season this year. If you could swing a trade for him, what is the contract he will accept? Long-term deal seems dangerous but when is he a UFA in the event you give him a short one? Seems like a dude that would explode in the contract year of that deal, get the long-term deal and then coast on it.

He seems like a guy that needs to go to a team that already has a strong identity and culture: that isn't the Kings at the moment.

 

[tomd]

Assuming the core was Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick, at the end of the 10-11 season:

Brown was 26, with 513 GP.
Kopitar was 23, with 393 GP.
Doughty was 21, with 239 GP.
Quick was 25, with 180 GP.

Today, at the end of 20-21, the only forwards that have at least 393 GP on the roster are Brown and Kopitar. The only defensemen with at least 239 GP are Doughty and Maatta. The only goalie with at least 180 GP is Quick. The only players in general with at least 180 GP are Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Maatta, Athanasiou, Kempe, and Iafallo. The Kings have an exceedingly inexperienced roster.

The leading GP player from the post-DL drafts is Vilardi at 61 games.

If Kopitar, etc are still the core, then you make a Werenski/Laine type trade, or whatever the hell it would be. If the core has yet to play the equivalent of 1 full NHL season yet, then that kind of trade is Palffy again. Nice, shiny, new, fun, makes the team better today, but probably won't be enough. Richards wasn't even enough. DL's idea wasn't working in 11-12. They were still 3 or 4 moves away, and Sutter wasn't a thought. DL was fully intent on going ahead with Murray. If not, TM should've been fired before the season as part of a plan of going all in.

If Kopitrar, etc, aren't the core, why are they still here? Because you can't move the contracts. Or you could, but you're not getting anything for them. You're not getting a top C prospect for Kopitar. You're not getting a top D prospect for Doughty. Those would be the very players the team acquiring Kopitar or Doughty would need to offset the cap space that's now gone. At best, you're probably getting a couple guys for each making $5m at the age of 27.

Why did they re-sign Doughty? Because they had already re-signed Quick, Brown, and Kopitar for the Cups, and weren't going to let one of the great players in franchise history walk if he willingly wanted to stay, but more importantly, because they had made the playoffs in 17-18. They were going to continue to try to make the playoffs in the future. That's why they were trying to add to the team in the summer of 2018. We all think the moves were dumb, even the ones that weren't made, but they were done with the playoffs in mind.

Right now, the "core" is Byfield and a bunch of prospects who look like middle six players at forward and 2nd/3rd pairing players on defense. Other than Byfield there isn't a single sure-fire top line player in the entire organization at this point. And everyone is treating Byfield as the next coming of Conner McDavid...he isn't. If he fully develops he'll be Eric Staal...a very very good NHL player but not generational. At worst he becomes Jordan Staal or slightly below.

To improve that "core" the team has to choose between: (1) spending another 3-4 years drafting talent and hope to find a couple of top 2D and a couple of top line wingers or (2) go outside the organization and fill the holes they have smartly. Is that tough? YES! But so is turning the franchise into Buffalo hoping to hit the lottery jackpot in the future.

I know that the dwindling number of posters on this board all prefer to go with choice #1. And that's fine...Buffalo West. But there are others way to build / rebuild a franchise than going the Buffalo route.

Finally, as to the history lesson you (once again) provided...Blake knew everything you regurgitated back in 2018. He knew that Quick/Brown/Doughty/Kopitar would be very difficult (if not impossible) to move. And yet he did the rebuild anyway in spite of that. Why would he do that? Two reasons: (1) He fully intended that Quick/Brown/Doughty/Kopitar would be part of the rebuilt core that would challenge for the next Cup...or (2) He is completely incompetent. And yes, the correct answer is (1) and (2).

 

[Cook24]

Which team would have the best assets to put together for McDavid, if he were available?(hes not)

Hint: starts with a k and ends with a ings


I need this off-season to start already haha

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Which team would have the best assets to put together for McDavid, if he were available?(hes not)

Hint: starts with a k and ends with a ings


I need this off-season to start already haha

I'd hate to give up Austin Wagner for McDavid, but I guess you have to give to get.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Right now, the "core" is Byfield and a bunch of prospects who look like middle six players at forward and 2nd/3rd pairing players on defense. Other than Byfield there isn't a single sure-fire top line player in the entire organization at this point. And everyone is treating Byfield as the next coming of Conner McDavid...he isn't. If he fully develops he'll be Eric Staal...a very very good NHL player but not generational. At worst he becomes Jordan Staal or slightly below.

To improve that "core" the team has to choose between: (1) spending another 3-4 years drafting talent and hope to find a couple of top 2D and a couple of top line wingers or (2) go outside the organization and fill the holes they have smartly. Is that tough? YES! But so is turning the franchise into Buffalo hoping to hit the lottery jackpot in the future.

I know that the dwindling number of posters on this board all prefer to go with choice #1. And that's fine...Buffalo West. But there are others way to build / rebuild a franchise than going the Buffalo route.

Finally, as to the history lesson you (once again) provided...Blake knew everything you regurgitated back in 2018. He knew that Quick/Brown/Doughty/Kopitar would be very difficult (if not impossible) to move. And yet he did the rebuild anyway in spite of that. Why would he do that? Two reasons: (1) He fully intended that Quick/Brown/Doughty/Kopitar would be part of the rebuilt core that would challenge for the next Cup...or (2) He is completely incompetent. And yes, the correct answer is (1) and (2).

You're being completely ignorant with the binaries.

We don't know if the answers are coming from within. You even said that yourself in this very post! For all we know, they ALL bust--you're comfortable putting that on the table as an option. You're also comfortable slinging any prospect for sure things. What you're NOT comfortable admitting is that the answers MAY COME FROM WITHIN. not every prospect is going to bust--it's very likely we have at least one top winger in the prospect pool. Are you willing to concede that? Because everyone else is more than willing to concede/admit that some of them won't work out (here or in general) and that we will need to parlay some of these current assets as well as near future picks into other assets.

Yes, I think we all agree there are some clear weaknesses to address--but I can't agree that a prospect pool that goes 20 deep of at least just-a-guys isn't going to turn out some gems.

 

[LAKings88]

Ian Cole and Jamie Oleksiak are the two left handed dmen Id target in free agency.

Cole is a grizzled vet. Oleksiak is huge, had a solid year, and the right age range.

Risto is open to a trade. I know Fox has specifically salivated over him on All the Kings Men Podcast.

Hamilton is going to get paid big time.

Colorado is a team with good defenseman in spades. Would love Girard but he is a pipedream.

I like Graves too.

 

[tomd]

You're being completely ignorant with the binaries.

We don't know if the answers are coming from within. You even said that yourself in this very post! For all we know, they ALL bust--you're comfortable putting that on the table as an option. You're also comfortable slinging any prospect for sure things. What you're NOT comfortable admitting is that the answers MAY COME FROM WITHIN. not every prospect is going to bust--it's very likely we have at least one top winger in the prospect pool. Are you willing to concede that? Because everyone else is more than willing to concede/admit that some of them won't work out (here or in general) and that we will need to parlay some of these current assets as well as near future picks into other assets.

Yes, I think we all agree there are some clear weaknesses to address--but I can't agree that a prospect pool that goes 20 deep of at least just-a-guys isn't going to turn out some gems.

I think you're being a little obtuse in your post but I'll follow on your logic. Yes, one of the prospects could outperform and become more than currently projected. It happens. But do you stake the franchise on that happening? I hope not! And how long are you willing to wait? Brock Faber may become a top pairing defenseman in 3-5 years. Is that acceptable to not fill a hole waiting for that to happen and hoping it does? In the meantime the franchise becomes the LA Sabres.

The answer is that the rebuild will contain element of internal and external pieces. But the visceral reaction to adding a couple of 23 year-old established stars to the roster for an unproven but talented 18 year-old and a 20 year-old 2nd pairing D is astounding to me. It just shows how emotionally attached people become to prospects. Happens to every fan base. But it isn't a hill that they should be willing to die on.

 

[kovacro]

Right now, the "core" is Byfield and a bunch of prospects who look like middle six players at forward and 2nd/3rd pairing players on defense. Other than Byfield there isn't a single sure-fire top line player in the entire organization at this point. And everyone is treating Byfield as the next coming of Conner McDavid...he isn't. If he fully develops he'll be Eric Staal...a very very good NHL player but not generational. At worst he becomes Jordan Staal or slightly below.

I don't recall seeing anyone here compare him to McDavid and if they have, with all due respect they are reaching. I would see Byfield if he develops properly ending up somewhere the level of Malkin. We can revisit this in a few years and see where were at.

I don't know but, isn't "very very good" just below "generational" or is "exceptional" in between those two. If so, I'm going with "exceptional".

 

[KingTech]

100% the type of guy you have to really wonder about when it comes to "Why does he want to play in LA?"

RFA on a $6.75MM cap hit. Trending down for three season's in a row with a horrific season this year. If you could swing a trade for him, what is the contract he will accept? Long-term deal seems dangerous but when is he a UFA in the event you give him a short one? Seems like a dude that would explode in the contract year of that deal, get the long-term deal and then coast on it.

He seems like a guy that needs to go to a team that already has a strong identity and culture: that isn't the Kings at the moment.

whoah there back up the bus The only purpose of my post was to answer Racoons question of why it would be different. I never once said we should trade for him nor would I because the only way i see us getting him this season is if Blue jackets refuse his qualifying offer and us signing him after that and yes i know that the odds of that happening is slim. When he became ufa is also another time i would consider him but he will have a season to bounce back under a new coach.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think you're being a little obtuse in your post but I'll follow on your logic. Yes, one of the prospects could outperform and become more than currently projected. It happens. But do you stake the franchise on that happening? I hope not! And how long are you willing to wait? Brock Faber may become a top pairing defenseman in 3-5 years. Is that acceptable to not fill a hole waiting for that to happen and hoping it does? In the meantime the franchise becomes the LA Sabres.

The answer is that the rebuild will contain element of internal and external pieces. But the visceral reaction to adding a couple of 23 year-old established stars to the roster for an unproven but talented 18 year-old and a 20 year-old 2nd pairing D is astounding to me. It just shows how emotionally attached people become to prospects. Happens to every fan base. But it isn't a hill that they should be willing to die on.

It wouldn't be outperformance. You're just low on all prospects because that's your M.O. If anything, we're being realistic about many of them not hitting.

RHD isn't a hole. We don't need to wait for Faber.

Yes, the rebuild will contain internal and external pieces. But you trade to complete, not to build. Imagine trading Turcotte for Lundqvist or something then finding out Turcotte hits big and Byfield and Vilardi don't and Lundqvist busts. Why put the cart before the horse? Now you have two holes instead of one. This is why I was attacking your binaries--there's a f***TON of grey area between not wanting to move prospects an waiting for a couple more to ripen for the roster to take shape. It's not about waiting 5 years--most of these guys are 19-20 and we'll know as soon as next training camp how some of them will start slotting in. And--for the umpteenth time--LA isn't like the Sabres because we still have our vet 1C and 1D as well as Cup captain.

And you're being DELIBERATELY ignorant about the risks associated with Laine and Werenski. You want to talk about obtuse? This line isn't about overrating the prospects, it's about ignoring our evaluations of the targets.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Eric Staal has over 1,000 points, has won a Stanley Cup, and has won gold in the Olympics and WC. He's one of only a couple dozen players in the Triple Gold Club. I'd be elated if Byfield finishes his career with that type of career.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Eric Staal has over 1,000 points, has won a Stanley Cup, and has won gold in the Olympics and WC. He's one of only a couple dozen players in the Triple Gold Club. I'd be elated if Byfield finishes his career with that type of career.

Yeah that's a good barometer for someone's ignorance because they're only thinking of Eric Staal circa age 35 while forgetting he has a 45 goal, 100 point season on his record

 

[Cook24]

Werenski is the best fit for us, and I believe could be had without costing an arm and a leg. He’s not even 24 yet, and 6’2”. Left handed. Three 40+ point seasons already and he’s only 23.

My other target would be Chychrun, although I doubt Arizona would move him. Arizona moving conferences would slightly help a trade scenario though...