2020-2021 St. Louis Blues: Generic Thread Titles Be Damned (Part II)

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I was debating on a 1st or 2nd for Schwartz. I probably sold him short. A 1st is probably right. But, he’s a UFA, coming off an injury and not putting up any points.

If he doesn't return 1st (or equivalent) I don't trade Schwartz. He can help us compete for playoffs and he is more likely to resign if he is here. But if we get enough value I think you deal him.

 

[Mike Liut]

If he doesn't return 1st (or equivalent) I don't trade Schwartz. He can help us compete for playoffs and he is more likely to resign if he is here. But if we get enough value I think you deal him.

Agree

 

[Bluesnatic27]

So if people want the Blues to trade Schwartz, does that mean we’re content on the Blues not competing in the short term at all?

 

[Thallis]

So if people want the Blues trade Schwartz, does that mean we’re content on the Blues not competing in the short term at all?

I'm fine with it, but I'm more pessimistic about the healthy roster in general than most.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

So if people want the Blues to trade Schwartz, does that mean we’re content on the Blues not competing in the short term at all?

Are we competing now?

 

[Frenzy31]

We might be in a situation that almost forces us to trade Dunn. As much as I don't like it, I am 99% convinced Armstrong is going to protect Krug, along with Faulk and Parayko. If Dunn is then exposed, he will undoubtedly be selected. So, I say trade Dunn for a 2nd instead of losing him for nothing.

Dunn gets exposed then he gets exposed. I am not paying Seattle anything to protect Dunn, Sunny D, ect. I am also not trading Dunn unless the return is worth more then a 2nd.
There is no reason to trade Dunn for a 2nd and then lose Sunny D in the expansion.

We are just better off losing Dunn in that case.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Are we competing now?

Definitely not, but shipping a player like Schwartz off tells me they're not even going to bother for next year. In which case, the real question becomes: why stop at Schwartz?

 

[Frenzy31]

Definitely not, but shipping a player like Schwartz off tells me they're not even going to bother for next year. In which case, the real question becomes, why stop at Schwartz?

Unless they plan on bringing him back. We have done that in the past and if Schwartz is willing make a run at the cup while we shut it down this season, it may make some sense.

He is a UFA regardless and I don’t see us offering an 8 year deal either

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Definitely not, but shipping a player like Schwartz off tells me they're not even going to bother for next year. In which case, the real question becomes: why stop at Schwartz?

I don't agree. We should actually have decent amount of cap space to sign him back or pick up someone else. Don't think we need to blow it up, just retool.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

I don't agree. We should actually have decent amount of cap space to sign him back or pick up someone else. Don't think we need to blow it up, just retool.

Sure, if the Blues re-sign Schwartz regardless of what happens this season, then of course get rid of him for value. Because at that point it wouldn't matter what occurred as the Blues will just make profit regardless if he were sold for a 7th round pick. But I see no reason why Schwartz would be incentivized to come back after such an action unless he wants to stay in St. Louis indefinitely or the Blues offer him a contract no one else would. The former is entirely possible, but I think it's tad naive to rely upon. The latter is where I would expect Schwartz to come back. But then you run into the risk of having another bloated contract on the books for the foreseeable future. For Schwartz, I wouldn't mind a bloated deal, but that's because I value Schwartz much higher than 95% of the roster.

As for finding a replacement, I think that's a lot easier said than done. Schwartz is a high caliber player that plays an exceptional 5-on-5 game. He might not be a top-20 talent, but finding someone better, or equal, is much harder than finding someone worse. And for a team who's entire issue all year has been playing a sound 5-on-5 game, such a loss would more likely make that impact worse. And having a lot of cap space is only as valuable on what that space is used for. The risk of that space being used on a worse player than Schwartz is not one I would like to take.

Even if the Blues would nab a top-10 pick for him, it would still be a challenge to find a forward that could match his 5-on-5 play. For myself, Schwartz is a foundational piece. Those are not easily replaceable and will more likely put the team in a worse position if subtracted. That's not such a big deal if the goal is to rebuild. It is if the Blues wish to compete.

 

[Mike Liut]

We wont get a top pick 15 pick for Schwartz. What team who’s not in playoff contention would trade their 1st for a rental? None

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

We wont get a top pick 15 pick for Schwartz. What team who’s not in playoff contention would trade their 1st for a rental? None

Good point. And given where interested teams are likely picking, I'd rather get a top prospect, someone who could help sooner than a pick. Someone like POJ or Alexeyev or Amirov (thinking Pitt, Wash, and Tor could be likely suitors).

 

[Mike Liut]

Good point. And given where interested teams are likely picking, I'd rather get a top prospect, someone who could help sooner than a pick. Someone like POJ or Alexeyev or Amirov (thinking Pitt, Wash, and Tor could be likely suitors).

I think you definitely have to kick the tires on a Schwartz deal. Just to see what the offers would be.

 

[Ranksu]

We wont get a top pick 15 pick for Schwartz. What team who’s not in playoff contention would trade their 1st for a rental? None

Why trade Schwartz? He isnt problem. We need to fix our d-core not forward group.

 

[Vincenzo Arelliti]

I’d be looking to get Vaakaninen out of Boston if he’s actually available. He’s got a lot of potential, and could be an answer to our hole on the left side as a shutdown, good skating, and good passing dman.

 

[Ranksu]

I’d be looking to get Vaakaninen out of Boston if he’s actually available. He’s got a lot of potential, and could be an answer to our hole on the left side as a shutdown, good skating, and good passing dman.

I think it's clear Army's plan is make us as much fast and mobile d-core you can get.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Why trade Schwartz? He isnt problem. We need to fix our d-core not forward group.

Our roster feels that way. But ironically we are having much more trouble scoring than stopping other team.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I’d be looking to get Vaakaninen out of Boston if he’s actually available. He’s got a lot of potential, and could be an answer to our hole on the left side as a shutdown, good skating, and good passing dman.

I like your thinking but not sure how much upside he actually has. Seems a bit underwhelming?

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

From LK: "Brayden Schenn has no goals the past 11 games and has just three assists in that stretch and is a minus-8; Jordan Kyrou had two goals (both in the same game against San Jose the past 15 games, has three assists also in that stretch and is a minus-4; Mike Hoffman, a healthy scratch last Sunday against Anaheim, has three goals the past 19 games but in his defense, hasn't been put in a top six role consistently enough to bring forth his best attributes; Jaden Schwartz, who missed five weeks of action with an oblique issue, has no goals and two assists since he returned to the lineup and no goals in his past 15 games overall; Vladimir Tarasenko has scored just twice in 13 games and is a minus-8 since he returned from a separated left shoulder that required a third surgery; Robert Thomas has no points in six games since he returned from a broken left thumb and one goal in 18 games this season; Tyler Bozak, who has missed 23 games with a variety of upper-body injuries, has just one goal in 13 games this season; and defenseman Justin Faulk has no goals in 23 games and Torey Krug has just one in 37 games this season."

 

[Ranksu]

Our roster feels that way. But ironically we are having much more trouble scoring than stopping other team.

Cus our energy goes finding exit from d-zone. Bad transition game. We have offensive dmen, but our system doesnt fit for them. We need faster gameplan what will fit our d-core + ourforwards need to be better down low. We are worse defensively so it cripples our game under pressure.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

We wont get a top pick 15 pick for Schwartz. What team who’s not in playoff contention would trade their 1st for a rental? None

The Coyotes.

Oh, that's right - they don't have their 1st round pick courtesy of their last GM.

 

[BadgersandBlues]

Dunn gets exposed then he gets exposed. I am not paying Seattle anything to protect Dunn, Sunny D, ect. I am also not trading Dunn unless the return is worth more then a 2nd.
There is no reason to trade Dunn for a 2nd and then lose Sunny D in the expansion.

We are just better off losing Dunn in that case.

This is the right way to think of any Dunn trade. We're basically trading Dunn AND Sunny D for whatever we get in return, unless it's for a roster player who is somehow better then Dunn but also less valuable then Krug. Dunn is the most obvious choice for Seattle, unless they do us a favor and take Sunny over him. If we're trading Dunn for a second, it's effectively Dunn + Sunny/Scandella for a second once the expansion draft hits.

IMO we'd be silly to trade Dunn at the deadline. Schwartz is super interesting as bait but I wouldn't move him unless we're getting a 1st + top prospect back....otherwise I'd rather we re-sign him now while we still hold his rights and keep him as part of our core that we're trying to content with.....and then of course if we do trade him I'll still look to resign him, b/c we have an issue at LW in our top 6 right now, which is only exacerbated without Schwartz.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think you definitely have to kick the tires on a Schwartz deal. Just to see what the offers would be.

Why trade Schwartz? He isnt problem. We need to fix our d-core not forward group.

You're right, he's not the problem. But Liut is right, you have to kick the tires here. The last time we were in a spot where we were selling and had one of the top trade targets was 2007 when we shipped Tkachuk to Atlanta. That got us a 1st+3rd in '07 and a 2nd in '08. I don't know what Schwartz gets if you put him out and get other teams to bid away, but I do know if he goes out he goes right to the top of everyone's list. If you can even get a 1st+3rd that's a good start toward replenishing the prospect pool. Or, we take that 1st + our 1st and try to swing a major deal with someone to rebuild the defense. Then bring back Schwartz in the offseason like we did Tkachuk, and we roll on.

 

[The Note]

I think at this point all options should be on the table short of trading ROR or Parayko. That is not to say I am advocating for a complete teardown, but I think it is only prudent when you have a team that is ostensibly trying to contend free-falling that you keep your options open. For instance, I have no desire to see Kyrou or Thomas traded but it shouldn't be a total non-starter. I am also fully on-board with exploring the market for Schwartz at this point. Blais/Sanford/Hoffman can all be actively shopped if there's a market for them, particularly the latter.

 

[Celtic Note]

I may have said this already, but if we are thinking of trading Schwartz, then Tarasenko should be on the table too. I know the contract situations are different, but losing Schwartz is worse than losing Tarasenko in terms of impact to the team. If we are looking to move Schwartz then it’s a signal that we are either going heavy retool or abandoning being competitive. In that case let’s move on from Tarasenko too. It seems no coincidence to me that the Blues won the Cup when Tarasenko was no longer “the guy”. He is such a floater and boarder line statue these days that his goal scoring has become overshadowed by all the things that he doesn’t do, which are many. I personally view him as an anchor to the lines he is on. He is similar to Hoffman in that regard.