2018 Olympic Qualification Groups

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Opinion Question: When Ralfs Freibergs' suspension is up, is he back on the Latvian team? Will it significantly improve the playing level of the team?
Freibergs is an ECHL/AHL guy, he won't improve anything significantly. He's still young, and he does have the potential of becoming an AHL regular and a guy who maybe lands an NHL contract as a 7th/8th D, but even if he reaches his full potential, that's not going to be a huge improvement anyway.

Having said that, he definitely adds depth to the Latvian line-up, as we don't have many decent puck-moving defensemen currently.

If everyone's healthy and motivated, he would probably be a 6th/7th D in the Latvian national team, who would probably get most of his ice-time on the PP.
 
Korea was a staple in Division II just 6 years ago and then only 4 years later in 2013 they avoided regulation from Division IA. So I think it's safe to say that Korean hockey development is trending sharply upwards already.
It most definitely isn't trending 'sharply' upwards. They have leap-frogged countries like Spain and Romania in the rankings, sure. But you have to have some perspective on the level of hockey in the 2nd/3rd tier of international hockey to understand that becoming better than Estonia or Romania is not a huge achievement.

Improving by 8 spots in the rankings when you're ranked #30 is nowhere near as difficult as improving by 4 spots when you're ranked #16.

If New Zealand would add 4 or 5 AHL guys, they would destroy their opponents as well.
 
It most definitely isn't trending 'sharply' upwards. They have leap-frogged countries like Spain and Romania in the rankings, sure. But you have to have some perspective on the level of hockey in the 2nd/3rd tier of international hockey to understand that becoming better than Estonia or Romania is not a huge achievement.

Improving by 8 spots in the rankings when you're ranked #30 is nowhere near as difficult as improving by 4 spots when you're ranked #16.

If New Zealand would add 4 or 5 AHL guys, they would destroy their opponents as well.
Sounds to me you haven't actually watched any lower level international hockey. Honestly, I'd say the gap between the teams in the bottom is far greater than the team in the top. We're at a point where all 16 teams can, on a good day, beat every single other team. But any team in division III would probably lose with atleast 20 goals to any team in division IIA, eve on a good day. So to go from bouncing around Division II to finishing in 21st place in the extended WC standings in just 4 years is a meteoric rise! Sure, they had a like bit of help from a handful of import players, but put those players in Spain and they would only be marginally better. No, Korea is certainly on the rise. Then of course there's the question how far they'll go and if this push will keep going beyond the Olympics, but I have a feeling it will. Cause hockey is a sport where Korea has real chance of being dominant over Japan is, and there's nothing that Korea loves more than beating Japan. Also, they have a strong skating tradition so that should work as a decent foundation for a decent hockey program. Wouldn't be surprised if eventually Korea joins countries like Italy and Hungary as countries constantly bouncing between the top division and Division IA.
 
Only last year France beat Canada in the opening match in the World Championship... Sure, that's an anomaly, but the point still stands... Good day for the bottom team, bad day for the top team, a fluke goal happens and hope you have decent defense and a good goalie. If they're lucky, both Slovenia and Austria can beat Canada.

Wow. There are so many things wrong with this post that I honestly can't force myself to even make a serious reply. I've been on hfboards for about 4 years and this is the first time that has happened.
Which things exactly? Division III games routinely end up in double digits, so obviously if Division IIA teams played them the gap would be even greater. So the equivalent on the top end of the scale would be if Canada crushed the bottom teams with like 25-0 every time they faced off. So that's not wrong.

And regarding Korea's climb in the rankings, before 2009 Korea had never even once finished better than last in Division I, meaning 27th or 28th place at the time since a parallel division structure was used. since then they've never been even close to be relegated back to Division II and even managed to stay in Division IA in 2013.

And regarding "import" players? You know how many was used that one year when they had their best performance yet? 1, Brock Radunske. That's it. In the two years after that they've never had more than 3. So the vast majority of players are still Korean natives. So those "import" players have only marginally contributed to their recent improvement.
No, if you wanna complain about "import" players, check out Croatia. Almost half their national team is AHL level players taken from other nations. And thanks to this sudden influx of import players, Croatia have managed to climb from a 26th place finish in 2009 to a 26th place finish in 2015. So yes, those ex-AHL made a big difference indeed...

And regarding the rest... Well, Korea's love for beating Japan is hardly debatable if you know anything about the country. And also inarguable is that Korea having a strong skating tradition, if you ever watch speed skating and short track during the Olympics that's apparent. In fact, Korea has probably the chance of in the future being the fastest national team in the world since pretty much everyone is a former speed skater. Not that that's too helpful in hockey if you can't also handle the puck at that pace but still, it's something. And regarding my prediction of Korea reaching Italy's level? Well, they're almost there already so I wouldn't call that a stretch. Give them a 5-10 years at this rate and they'll be there, assuming they up with the current push on hockey development.

So yeah, don't really see how I'm wrong here.
 
Only last year France beat Canada in the opening match in the World Championship... Sure, that's an anomaly, but the point still stands... Good day for the bottom team, bad day for the top team, a fluke goal happens and hope you have decent defense and a good goalie. If they're lucky, both Slovenia and Austria can beat Canada.
Sure, like you said, Namejs probably needs to catch up on his lower division hockey. It might be fair to to say you need to catch up on your upper division hockey. Canada usually brings a B or a C team to the world championships. However, last year was an Olympic year which customarily means D teams for the top countries after all their patriotism is spent. While Canada brought their D team, France is the annoying tryhard team that every year brings an A team. Even teams like Latvia, Austria, Switzerland, and Germany hold back when it comes to the world championships and bring exciting new lineups for the Olympics. Not France, if France brought an Olympic team it wouldn't look different than any of their world championship teams minus injuries. Canada D vs. France A was still one of the biggest shockers, and the magnitude of the upset shows how impossible it would be if this game were played as the forum is about, in the Olympics and Canada brought a real A team. The likelihood that France A would beat Canada A is about the likelihood that Luxembourg defeats Estonia (I follow both by the way so this isn't arbitrary), negligible. Furthermore, Austria had team Canada this year hang 10 on them. Austria A vs. Canada A in the Olympics was 6-0 after two periods and then Canada helped Austria save some face so it ended that way. Slovenia, despite having some recent success against Austria is still worse on every way except physicality and has even less of a shot at Canada. 5-0 against Sweden could have been worse and Canada is better than Sweden. Also for blowouts, this year Sweden took Latvia 8-1, Canada took Austria 10-1, Belarus 9-0, and Russia beat Belarus 7-0 among others. Is there less parity than at Division 3, absolutely, but even in division 3 there aren't regular 25-0 blowouts, 15-0 is pretty extreme and the high end of blowouts. Namejs will cover the rest, but I think it's pretty clear to most people that Slovenia will beat Canada in the Olympics when Hampton beats Kentucky (Americans will understand the reference).
 
Only last year France beat Canada in the opening match in the World Championship... Sure, that's an anomaly, but the point still stands... Good day for the bottom team, bad day for the top team, a fluke goal happens and hope you have decent defense and a good goalie. If they're lucky, both Slovenia and Austria can beat Canada.

Which things exactly? Division III games routinely end up in double digits, so obviously if Division IIA teams played them the gap would be even greater. So the equivalent on the top end of the scale would be if Canada crushed the bottom teams with like 25-0 every time they faced off. So that's not wrong.

And regarding Korea's climb in the rankings, before 2009 Korea had never even once finished better than last in Division I, meaning 27th or 28th place at the time since a parallel division structure was used. since then they've never been even close to be relegated back to Division II and even managed to stay in Division IA in 2013.

And regarding "import" players? You know how many was used that one year when they had their best performance yet? 1, Brock Radunske. That's it. In the two years after that they've never had more than 3. So the vast majority of players are still Korean natives. So those "import" players have only marginally contributed to their recent improvement.
No, if you wanna complain about "import" players, check out Croatia. Almost half their national team is AHL level players taken from other nations. And thanks to this sudden influx of import players, Croatia have managed to climb from a 26th place finish in 2009 to a 26th place finish in 2015. So yes, those ex-AHL made a big difference indeed...

And regarding the rest... Well, Korea's love for beating Japan is hardly debatable if you know anything about the country. And also inarguable is that Korea having a strong skating tradition, if you ever watch speed skating and short track during the Olympics that's apparent. In fact, Korea has probably the chance of in the future being the fastest national team in the world since pretty much everyone is a former speed skater. Not that that's too helpful in hockey if you can't also handle the puck at that pace but still, it's something. And regarding my prediction of Korea reaching Italy's level? Well, they're almost there already so I wouldn't call that a stretch. Give them a 5-10 years at this rate and they'll be there, assuming they up with the current push on hockey development.

So yeah, don't really see how I'm wrong here.
You're wrong in pretty much every single point that you've made in this thread.

You don't seem to understand the fundamentals of how popular and widespread hockey is in the world (or Korea specifically). You don't seem to understand that there are less than 20 countries with a full-scale hockey 'pyramid' in place, meaning that in most IIHF member states most of the national team players are amateurs - postmen, office workers, firemen, etc.

They have NOT invested thousands upon thousands of hours of their time to craft their hockey skills, their skating and so on like they do in Canada, Sweden or Latvia. It's a hobby and a recreational activity for them. Something similar to what frolf (a mix of frisbee and golf) is to us over here.

The mid-tier nations are mostly a collection of amateurs, semi-pros and a few minor pro players, if they're lucky.

When a certain 3rd-tier hockey federation for some reason decides to start investing money and resources into improving their hockey programme, it doesn't take much to improve things when most of your players are amateurs. You hire foreign coaches, you prop up a team with state support (ignoring any free market principles and the complete lack of demand for hockey), you start paying salaries to the players, so they could become full-time hockey players, and the results are almost instantaneous.

Korea has improved. I think it should be obvious to anyone who's been following international hockey for the past 5 or 10 years. But that's not the point you're making.

You're saying that just because they've leap-frogged Spain and Estonia (neither of which have a single pro hockey team, btw), they're going to continue 'trending sharply upwards', as if the distance between the skill level of all the national teams was linear and evenly distributed. It most certainly isn't. The number of man-hours and the amount of money needed to improve a national hockey programme to the level of Norway, Germany or Latvia is incomparable to the number of man-hours needed to improve Team New Zealand to the level of, say, Lithuania. That's the crucial bit you don't seem to understand.

Korea isn't trending sharply upwards, they've improved and have already plateaued in their growth, because the fundamentals in Korea haven't changed in any way, shape or form. They still don't have a league of their own, the popularity of hockey in Korea hasn't substantially increased, their player base is the same and their junior teams haven't made any progress, at all. It's just a medium-term project in preparation of the Olympic Games in Korea, so they could field a semi-competent team and avoid getting steamrolled in every game, which might happen anyway.

Their efforts have been focused on improving their national team, not their hockey pyramid in general. They're not growing the sport, they're trying to save their face in 2018. That's exactly what they've been doing over the past few years in a number of different winter sports outside of hockey as well.

After the Olympics hockey in Korea will return to being a recreational sport for a very tiny fraction of the Korean society, because the underlying cause of state support (saving face in the Olympics) for hockey will disappear, and the fundamentals will not have changed in the process.
 
As for Italy, their relative success on the international arena has been largely based on North American imports (or, to be precise, Canadian Italians/American Italians).

The Italian hockey federation has changed their philosophy and approach to this, and they are no longer relying on North Americans, so they will most definitely plunge down the IIHF rankings in the medium-term. And they might meet Korea in the rankings, sure.

As for me not being up to date with second tier hockey, I'm nearly 100% certain that I've seen more games than you have. I've watched them every year religiously since online streams have been made available. :)
 
Sure, like you said, Namejs probably needs to catch up on his lower division hockey. It might be fair to to say you need to catch up on your upper division hockey. Canada usually brings a B or a C team to the world championships. However, last year was an Olympic year which customarily means D teams for the top countries after all their patriotism is spent. While Canada brought their D team, France is the annoying tryhard team that every year brings an A team. Even teams like Latvia, Austria, Switzerland, and Germany hold back when it comes to the world championships and bring exciting new lineups for the Olympics. Not France, if France brought an Olympic team it wouldn't look different than any of their world championship teams minus injuries. Canada D vs. France A was still one of the biggest shockers, and the magnitude of the upset shows how impossible it would be if this game were played as the forum is about, in the Olympics and Canada brought a real A team. The likelihood that France A would beat Canada A is about the likelihood that Luxembourg defeats Estonia (I follow both by the way so this isn't arbitrary), negligible. Furthermore, Austria had team Canada this year hang 10 on them. Austria A vs. Canada A in the Olympics was 6-0 after two periods and then Canada helped Austria save some face so it ended that way. Slovenia, despite having some recent success against Austria is still worse on every way except physicality and has even less of a shot at Canada. 5-0 against Sweden could have been worse and Canada is better than Sweden. Also for blowouts, this year Sweden took Latvia 8-1, Canada took Austria 10-1, Belarus 9-0, and Russia beat Belarus 7-0 among others. Is there less parity than at Division 3, absolutely, but even in division 3 there aren't regular 25-0 blowouts, 15-0 is pretty extreme and the high end of blowouts. Namejs will cover the rest, but I think it's pretty clear to most people that Slovenia will beat Canada in the Olympics when Hampton beats Kentucky (Americans will understand the reference).
I am well aware that Canada usually don't bring their best players to the World Championships. And last year during the Olympics that team was still even more watered down. However, if we look at the Olympics tournament it's not like they just breezed through that either. Now they did win both these games in the end, but the played a pretty hard fought game against Norway. And while Norway never caught up in the goal column, they were never in complete control of that game and had Norway been a little bit lucky things could have gone differently. And then in the playoff, they face off against Latvia and that game was even until 54th minute. Sure, the only reason it was still tied at that point was because Gudlevskis played as in trance but you know what, sometimes that happens. Sometimes you have a goalie that just the game of his life and if the team in front of him is only semi competent it's gonna be enough to eek out a victory. That was Canada A facing Latvia A and Norway A. Both teams are on the similar level of France A and they both almost beat Canada A. Canada pulled through in the end both times, but it was still close enough that to argue that Norway and Latvia could never have won those games is naive. So I stand by my statement, any team in the top 16 can beat any other, it's just more or less likely.

Whereas in the case of Luxembourg A vs Estonia A would at this point always end up in double digits. Cause while Estonia isn't a great national team, I'd say they're about on the level of a mid tier ECHL team at best, Luxembourg would struggle greatly against CJHL teams. A match between the two nations, even in the best of circumstance, would be decided within minutes. The gap in skill is profound and is in no way comparable to the gap between nations at the top.

And lastly, we have the Canadian WC team for this year. And I'd say that this was an anomaly in the other direction. Cause I'd definitely argue that this was the best Canadian national team still like the mid 90's. Not in terms of the names involved, but how they played. The Canada team of the WC of this year was a much better playing team than the Canada team that appeared in the Olympics. Everything just came together for them and everyone performed the best at the same time. It was awesome to see. And just in general, this year was unusually blowout heavy. Usually there's more parity between teams. Maybe it's a sign that the top nations are starting to pull away again, it's hard to say for sure after just 1 tournament. The trend before that though was that the gap was shrinking.
 
I am well aware that Canada usually don't bring their best players to the World Championships. And last year during the Olympics that team was still even more watered down. However, if we look at the Olympics tournament it's not like they just breezed through that either. Now they did win both these games in the end, but the played a pretty hard fought game against Norway. And while Norway never caught up in the goal column, they were never in complete control of that game and had Norway been a little bit lucky things could have gone differently. And then in the playoff, they face off against Latvia and that game was even until 54th minute. Sure, the only reason it was still tied at that point was because Gudlevskis played as in trance but you know what, sometimes that happens. Sometimes you have a goalie that just the game of his life and if the team in front of him is only semi competent it's gonna be enough to eek out a victory. That was Canada A facing Latvia A and Norway A. Both teams are on the similar level of France A and they both almost beat Canada A. Canada pulled through in the end both times, but it was still close enough that to argue that Norway and Latvia could never have won those games is naive. So I stand by my statement, any team in the top 16 can beat any other, it's just more or less likely.

Whereas in the case of Luxembourg A vs Estonia A would at this point always end up in double digits. Cause while Estonia isn't a great national team, I'd say they're about on the level of a mid tier ECHL team at best, Luxembourg would struggle greatly against CJHL teams. A match between the two nations, even in the best of circumstance, would be decided within minutes. The gap in skill is profound and is in no way comparable to the gap between nations at the top.

And lastly, we have the Canadian WC team for this year. And I'd say that this was an anomaly in the other direction. Cause I'd definitely argue that this was the best Canadian national team still like the mid 90's. Not in terms of the names involved, but how they played. The Canada team of the WC of this year was a much better playing team than the Canada team that appeared in the Olympics. Everything just came together for them and everyone performed the best at the same time. It was awesome to see. And just in general, this year was unusually blowout heavy. Usually there's more parity between teams. Maybe it's a sign that the top nations are starting to pull away again, it's hard to say for sure after just 1 tournament. The trend before that though was that the gap was shrinking.
Last year was the world cup and my wonderful team USA almost beat Germany by a score of 1-0. We came out with a 5-4-1 formation, our midfielders pretty much never crossed midfield, we crowded the goal and as a result kept the best team in the world to one goal. The score was 1-0 but we had no chance of winning that game. Same thing with the Norway Canada match. Latvia is another animal, they're more around the 8-9 range not the 15-16 range and even they only scored off of a set play. Norway however came out and successfully played damage control. The score being closer does not necessarily mean that there was any chance Norway was going to win that game. They later played Austria and it was apparent within the first 5 minutes that they weren't up to snuff. They may have lost by only two goals on a good day with everyone inside their own blue line but the chances they could ever beat Canada are still negligible.
 
Cause while Estonia isn't a great national team, I'd say they're about on the level of a mid tier ECHL team at best
Estonia has maybe 2 or 3 players of ECHL caliber, while the Luxembourg team is comprised of office workers for the most part.
 
*lots of text by Namejs* (as to not overwhelm the topic with unnecessarily huge posts)
Well, Korea may not have a "hockey pyramid". They used to have one though, but that was folded to create a more competitive professional hockey league in Asia League. Cause yes, the Asia League is a professional hockey league. It's not a great league perhaps. But it is there and it is developing. And as far as I know, most teams are self-sustaining (not sure about China Dragon). Korea only have 3 teams at the moment in the league, so we're talking about only 60ish domestic pro players (in addition to a couple of thousands play at school level and recreationally). So not a lot albeit, but they are professional. Sure that's not the case for most lower level national teams, especially below Division I most players are either amateurs or students. But in Korea the players are pros. It's very difficult to maintain a serious hockey career and working a regular job in Korea so they kinda have to be. Going professional is certain part of why Korea has improved, but it's not the whole story since the Asia League has been around since 2003.

I never said that I was certain Korea will continue to develop at their current pace. I said they were trending sharply upwards. Which they are, it's pretty much undeniable. Maybe it's the word "trending". It doesn't mean the the current pace will continue. If something is trending upwards it means that based on recent history, if the momentum of that recent history was maintained that it will continue upwards. To say that something is trending upwards is not a prediction, it's statistical analysis. It's taking history and applying it to the future whole sale.
I guess the only thing you could argue is that the trend is broken and they plateaued. I would argue they haven't. I'd say that in 2013 they overperformed, they should have been relegated that year. They exceeded their trend by doing better than expected. So being relegated in 2014 was what would have been expected. They'll be back in IA next year and we'll see how they do they. If they from now on keep bopping up and down between the divisions then yes, they've plateaued, but I'd argue that they're not there yet. Next year should be telling. My prediction is they'll stay clear of relegation, but we'll see.

But I believe that this trend will continue. Maybe at a slightly lower pace though since it's harder to improve as you get better, but it'll get better. Like I said, maybe in 5-10 years they'll reach Italy's level, although if Italy is gonna stop using import players then that should happen much quicker, maybe even next year. To reach the heights of nations like Latvia and Norway is further away, but they should atleast be able to challenge for upsets within that time period. I'm certain that Korea will qualify for the top level in the WC by its own efforts before 2025. That's my prediction. Don't think that's a very bold prediction personally, but we'll see if I'm right eventually.

And actually, popularity of ice hockey is on the rise. 10 years ago people didn't even know what it was. But nowadays it's being aired on TV even. Not on any major channel perhaps, but it's there and hockey is slowly growing. Part of that is the Olympics, part of that is a growing foreign population and part of that is probably Korea's enduring success in other skating sports, but I think the biggest reason is probably parity with Japan. Nothing motivates Koreans more than the chance of beating Japan. And if that starts happening regularly I wouldn't be surprised if interest will go up drastically.

And regarding their junior team... Last year the U20 team finished in 25th place, so not too far behind. But the U18 team finished in 23th, just as the men's team. And that's hugely impressive honestly and suggests a bright future for Korea. Why is that? Well, high school in Korea is very different to the high school you and me are used to. High school in Korea is a crazy education crunch, most students can spend upwards of 16 hours per weekday studying and while I believe there are hockey programs, they're still expected to maintain a very high study pace. So development during that time will always suffer in Korea, it's inevitable. One would therefore expect the Korean junior team to be performing notably worse than the men's team in tournaments, but they're not. And that's why one have reason to be optimistic.

Their state support has also been very limited. They're doing a few things sure, like getting players playing time in foreign leagues and time at dev camps (we've got 3 coming to Dallas next week). But it's very low level funding. Korea knows they can't be competitive in hockey compared to the other skating sports, so the funding from KOC is very limited. Certainly not enough to explain the current pace. Besides, their current climb started in 2009, which was before they were awarded the Olympics.
 
Same thing with the Norway Canada match.
I might be misremembering that match, but I remember Norway being very close to scoring atleast 3 or 4 more goals. Now yes, Canada was in charge of that game, but Norway had a few very dangerous counter-attack and with a few more lucky bounces either way, Canada could have lost.

Estonia has maybe 2 or 3 players of ECHL caliber, while the Luxembourg team is comprised of office workers for the most part.
I think you're underselling the Estonians but OK fine, a LNAH team then. It's still enough to blow Luxembourg out of the water.
 
I might be misremembering that match, but I remember Norway being very close to scoring atleast 3 or 4 more goals. Now yes, Canada was in charge of that game, but Norway had a few very dangerous counter-attack and with a few more lucky bounces either way, Canada could have lost.
No you remember incorrectly, they actually had 20 shots on goal, I guess having Carey Price is a small advantage.

Robert Rooba should be AHL level. Otherwise, they probably aren't ECHL caliber. Luxembourg is actually trying to grow their hockey program by imports. They might be able to move 8 spots up the rankings in a few years, a sharp turn upward I guess.
 
When you use a verb in present continuous, it clearly indicates that the Korean national team is currently sharply trending upwards. It doesn't mean that they have improved in the past, it implies they are on a continuous vector and are continuing to move sharply upwards.

If that was a simple mistake in your wording, I'm not going to overanalyze it. But there is literally nothing that would indicate that they're going to continue improving after the Olympics are over.

Probably not a single Korean player would be a pro player in the Asian league, if it wasn't for state support. There is nowhere near enough demand domestically to finance a fully professional hockey club based on demand alone in Korea.

When you're saying that there is very little state support, you're ignoring the fact that Korean chaebols (such as Halla group, which directly finances Anyang Hall) have direct ties with the Korean state and that their support is in no way based on free market principles. They're just throwing money at the hockey teams without expecting any return on their 'investments'. How is that not essentially state support?

And you're also conveniently forgetting that Korea has made bids to host the Winter Olympics for quite a long time now. They have been in contention for the 2010 and 2014 Games as well.
 
I might be misremembering that match, but I remember Norway being very close to scoring atleast 3 or 4 more goals. Now yes, Canada was in charge of that game, but Norway had a few very dangerous counter-attack and with a few more lucky bounces either way, Canada could have lost.


I think you're underselling the Estonians but OK fine, a LNAH team then. It's still enough to blow Luxembourg out of the water.
I'm definitely not selling Estonians short. You can look up all of their players on eliteprospects or some other site, there's literally 2 or 3 players of that caliber.

An Estonian team used to play in the Latvian hockey league some 8 or 9 years ago. Half of that team consisted of their national team players and the rest were imports or Estonian juniors, etc. They ended up in the last or second-to-last place. The Latvian league at that point was semi-pro (about Division 2 level in Sweden with 1 decent club) and it had a junior team playing there as well. The best Latvian clubs were playing in the Belarusian league.

They're a bunch of semi-pros with a handful of minor pro players.

As for Luxembourg, I know a guy who works menial jobs in France, he used to play beer-league hockey in Latvia. He's about 40 years old and plays a division above the only Luxembourg-based team. :laugh: I'm not sure they should even be included in official IIHF competitions.
 
No you remember incorrectly, they actually had 20 shots on goal, I guess having Carey Price is a small advantage.

Robert Rooba should be AHL level. Otherwise, they probably aren't ECHL caliber. Luxembourg is actually trying to grow their hockey program by imports. They might be able to move 8 spots up the rankings in a few years, a sharp turn upward I guess.
You're saying 'imports', but I have an inkling that they're just random office workers with some amateur hockey experience. :)
 
You're saying 'imports', but I have an inkling that they're just random office workers with some amateur hockey experience. :)
Still they are imports. One of them even played U19 hockey in Germany :)

Imagine how they were ranked 43rd last year, they are rising and in three years they could surge past New Zealand and South Africa and become 35th. Such steep improvement should be awarded with an Olympic spot.
 
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Imagine how they were ranked 43rd last year, they are rising and in three years they could surge past New Zealand and South Africa and become 35th. Such steep improvement should be awarded with an Olympic spot.
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Probably not a single Korean player would be a pro player in the Asian league, if it wasn't for state support. There is nowhere near enough demand domestically to finance a fully professional hockey club based on demand alone in Korea.

When you're saying that there is very little state support, you're ignoring the fact that Korean chaebols (such as Halla group, which directly finances Anyang Hall) have direct ties with the Korean state and that their support is in no way based on free market principles. They're just throwing money at the hockey teams without expecting any return on their 'investments'. How is that not essentially state support?
To say that the Halla Group is getting state support... I mean, I guess it's not completely inaccurate, as major chaebols tend to be awarded competitive advantages in the domestic market place, but we're not talking about funding here but rather competitive advantages. And it has no impact on their decision to have a hockey team. Halla also isn't big enough to command too much influence. Samsung, Hyundai, Lotte, LG and SK Group are primarily the benefactors here, and compared to them the Halla Group are small fry. I also don't think the team is in itself losing them much money. Salaries aren't very high seeing as housing is usually provided (which probably costs the Halla Group very little too since they're a construction company too) and the team itself is part of a larger sports complex maintained by the Halla group. So even if the team is losing them money, that sum would be negligible. And in any case, the state is not directly supporting the team. Besides, the team was founded in 1994, long before Korea had any serious plans to establish themselves as a hockey nation for any reason.

No you remember incorrectly, they actually had 20 shots on goal, I guess having Carey Price is a small advantage.
That's not what I meant. Like I said, Canada was in charge of that game, but Norway had some very dangerous chances with several pucks hitting the posts and excellent saves by the keeper. The number of quality scoring chances was a lot closer than the 18 shots shot differential.
Still doesn't mean I don't misremember, but you're not talking about what I was talking about here.

Imagine how they were ranked 43rd last year, they are rising and in three years they could surge past New Zealand and South Africa and become 35th. Such steep improvement should be awarded with an Olympic spot.
Eh? I was talking about how Korea has gotten better fast since people were all poopooing their level of quality. I never said Korea should be awarded an Olympic spot cause of their improvement. They should be awarded an Olympic spot because they're the host and that's the end of it. So sure, if Luxembourg ever hosts the Olympics and they decide they wanna field a team in hockey. Well, they'll get absolutely creamed, but they should absolutely be offered that spot. They might wanna decline though...
 
Korea isn't trending sharply upwards, they've improved and have already plateaued in their growth, because the fundamentals in Korea haven't changed in any way, shape or form. They still don't have a league of their own, the popularity of hockey in Korea hasn't substantially increased, their player base is the same and their junior teams haven't made any progress, at all. It's just a medium-term project in preparation of the Olympic Games in Korea, so they could field a semi-competent team and avoid getting steamrolled in every game, which might happen anyway.

Their efforts have been focused on improving their national team, not their hockey pyramid in general. They're not growing the sport, they're trying to save their face in 2018. That's exactly what they've been doing over the past few years in a number of different winter sports outside of hockey as well.

You seem completely certain about this. Particularly when you consider the sport grew considerably well BEFORE there was a hint that the olympics were going to Korea. When you combine that with the fact the program has grown on homegrown players with very very few imported players it paints a picture and not one you are painting.

That's to say it's not possible the program plateaus. But not at all for the reasons you mention.
 
That's not what I meant. Like I said, Canada was in charge of that game, but Norway had some very dangerous chances with several pucks hitting the posts and excellent saves by the keeper. The number of quality scoring chances was a lot closer than the 18 shots shot differential.
Still doesn't mean I don't misremember, but you're not talking about what I was talking about here.

Eh? I was talking about how Korea has gotten better fast since people were all poopooing their level of quality. I never said Korea should be awarded an Olympic spot cause of their improvement. They should be awarded an Olympic spot because they're the host and that's the end of it. So sure, if Luxembourg ever hosts the Olympics and they decide they wanna field a team in hockey. Well, they'll get absolutely creamed, but they should absolutely be offered that spot. They might wanna decline though...
With the rewarding Luxembourg quote I was poking fun at the notion that they should be given a spot as a reward for their progress, I wasn't specifically addressing you because I'm not sure you said something to that effect. I think most of us agree they should get the spot because they are the host and specifically the cost of being the hosts.

Canada had more than 3 dangerous chances, a couple lucky bounces and the game could have been 15-1. What I'm saying though is that you have to factor in the goalie. Carey Price and whoever else is in net is a big factor on their success because he's not paid to make just the routine saves, he's paid to make saves on the dangerous plays, that's what makes him great and that's why Canada selected him. So yeah, Norway had chances on net, but there's a goalkeeper there for a reason and in this case a pretty decent goalkeeper I would say.
 
In which of three final qualification groups will go Saporro's group winner ?
 
In which of three final qualification groups will go Saporro's group winner ?
I'm tempted to say it's decided by seeding after the winners are decided but I'm not sure about that. To call for an expert just say something denigrating to the Latvian national team and you'll get a few guys who know their stuff.
 
How come no one is televising these games?

I wish the NHL network did not look at international hockey as a competitor and aired these games. Maybe NBC sports or ONEWorld sports would show the Olympics qualifiying games for the 2018 Olympic hockey tournament.

Are they aired in Canada?
 
I would like Slovenia, Latvia and France to get past the qualifiaction.
Kopitar would deserve to play there again, he is just simply the best player of all those ''lower'' national teams.
Latvia is in my opinion the best and I always liked them. In fact, I am expecting sooner or later they will have a ''surprise'' year in IIHF championship. Just like Switzerland in 2013 got into final without any loss, I expect Latvia to have that one year that belongs to them.
In the last group, which really is the easiest of them, I would love to see France get past. Norway is obvisouly expected to get past, but I just like France. They played great in 2014 (IIHF) and I also really like their player Stephane Da Costa (Best one of the team I think. Plays in KHL but he is star there, so I think he is even better than Roussel)

PS: If Czech team loses to Korea... :help:
 

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