Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VII

[Zine]

To add to the above…..

Russian players are brought up in a bubble. Teams provide players everything imaginable, it’s a hold-over from Soviet days when teams had complete control over players.

Everything from A-Z had been taken care of for Kravtsov before his NY adventure. Pre-season training regimens are all planned, everybody gets in shape together, housing and transportation are provided (for those who want it), every incidental imaginable is covered, etc. etc. Plus the baza culture is still in effect for many teams. I mean it's not uncommon for an organization to financially support the family of an elite junior player as a means of enticing them to play for them. Kuznetsov's father didn't lift a finger when Zhenya was in juniors.

In Russia very little is expected of players on their own, away from the team. Guys then arrive in NA and find a completely different 'do it yourself' ethos, on and off the ice. It can be a handful, just ask Buchnevich. That said, the culture in Russia is slowly trending towards NA's in this aspect, but it's not happening overnight.

Actually, elite hockey players, in general, exist in a bubble and are somewhat ill-equipped to deal with off-ice situations the way the average educated person can.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

To add to the above…..

Russian players are brought up in a bubble. Teams provide players everything imaginable, it’s a hold-over from the Soviet days when teams wanted complete control over players.

Everything from A-Z had been taken care of for Kravtsov before his NY adventure. Pre-season training regiments are all planned, everybody gets in shape together, housing and transportation are provided (for those who want it), every incidental imaginable is covered, etc. etc. Plus the baza culture is still in effect for many teams. I mean it's not uncommon for an organization to financially support the family of an elite junior player as a means of enticing them to play for them. Kuzentsov's father didn't lift a finger when Zhenya was in juniors.
In Russia very little is expected of players on their own, away from the team. Guys then they arrive in NA and find a completely different 'do it yourself' ethos. It can be a handful, just ask Buchnevich. That said, the culture in Russia is slowly trending towards NA's in this aspect, but it's not happening overnight.

This topic reminds me of the NHLer from years ago (I wanna say Afinogenov, but don't quote me) who lived in a van in the stadium parking lot on the initial occasions he was called up from the AHL his rookie year. That's fantastic.

To the people saying "Oh, the organization does everything for these players. They shouldn't have trouble adjusting", it's a much bigger change from Russia to the US than it is for an American kid to go to Europe. The US and Europe have a lot in common when it comes to life in general, whereas Russia is vastly different, especially a city like Chelyabinsk. Whoever it was who talked earlier about moving to China, that's a much better comparison as you don't speak the language, society as a whole is different, the language barrier is an issue, even if Kravtsov speaks a bit of English. Going from doing some interviews of conversations in English to speaking it all day every day, is a big change.

And as much as organizations try to help these kids, there's sometimes nothing they can do to battle the depression, loneliness, isolation etc. The mental challenge that a move like that brings with it sometimes can't be fixed by an organization just throwing millions at it. Kravtsov seemed happy all summer, because he had friends and family over visiting him. I spoke to people close to him here in NA, and they said he struggled immensely feeling lonely once they left. How do the Rangers fight that? How do the Rangers take away those feelings? The China story, where buying shoes is a challenge, where you can't even get decent pizza, to me hits much closer to home than what an American kid would deal with backpacking through Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands for a year.

The last thing I say is this: I don't think we should assume the Rangers are always dealing with every issue the best way they can. This "We're the best organization in the league" attitude drives me nuts sometimes. Sure, they have a seemingly unlimited stream of money to hire coaches, scouts, physios, personal trainers etc. Does that mean the support/assistance they provide is automatically the best? I don't know. It came up in the Kakko discussions over the summer. Saying the Rangers can offer him "the best doctors" to deal with his celiac disease and diabetis. As if that wasn't the case in Turku for some reason. The Rangers aren't perfect. To assume they are, would be foolish. Between Gropp, Lias and Kravtsov, the Rangers had 3 prospects making them look bad early in the season. 1 is an incident, 2 is a coincidence, but 3? I don't know. I have a hard time blaming 3 individuals without looking at the organization as well.

 

[Zine]

To the people saying "Oh, the organization does everything for these players. They shouldn't have trouble adjusting", it's a much bigger change from Russia to the US than it is for an American kid to go to Europe. The US and Europe have a lot in common when it comes to life in general, whereas Russia is vastly different, especially a city like Chelyabinsk. Whoever it was who talked earlier about moving to China, that's a much better comparison as you don't speak the language, society as a whole is different, the language barrier is an issue, even if Kravtsov speaks a bit of English. Going from doing some interviews of conversations in English to speaking it all day every day, is a big change.

And as much as organizations try to help these kids, there's sometimes nothing they can do to battle the depression, loneliness, isolation etc. The mental challenge that a move like that brings with it sometimes can't be fixed by an organization just throwing millions at it. Kravtsov seemed happy all summer, because he had friends and family over visiting him. I spoke to people close to him here in NA, and they said he struggled immensely feeling lonely once they left. How do the Rangers fight that? How do the Rangers take away those feelings? The China story, where buying shoes is a challenge, where you can't even get decent pizza, to me hits much closer to home than what an American kid would deal with backpacking through Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands for a year.

The last thing I say is this: I don't think we should assume the Rangers are always dealing with every issue the best way they can. This "We're the best organization in the league" attitude drives me nuts sometimes. Sure, they have a seemingly unlimited stream of money to hire coaches, scouts, physios, personal trainers etc. Does that mean the support/assistance they provide is automatically the best? I don't know. It came up in the Kakko discussions over the summer. Saying the Rangers can offer him "the best doctors" to deal with his celiac disease and diabetis. As if that wasn't the case in Turku for some reason. The Rangers aren't perfect. To assume they are, would be foolish. Between Gropp, Lias and Kravtsov, the Rangers had 3 prospects making them look bad early in the season. 1 is an incident, 2 is a coincidence, but 3? I don't know. I have a hard time blaming 3 individuals without looking at the organization as well.

The difficulties North Americans have in the KHL is the best example of this. It's the exact same transition, in reverse.
Plus, KHL teams do way more for imports in terms of offering an off-ice support than NHL teams do. Imports are given free housing, transportation at all times, and usually a personal attendant whom they can contact, around the clock, if they are in need of assistance of any-kind.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

The difficulties North Americans have in the KHL is the best example of this. It's the exact same transition, in reverse.
Plus, KHL teams do way more for imports in terms of offering an off-ice support than NHL teams do. Imports are given free housing, transportation at all times, and usually a personal attendant whom they can contact, around the clock, if they are in need of assistance of any-kind.

What I do know is that the Rangers have families where they house their young prospects from overseas (billet families). That's great, and much better than being stuck in a hotel or living on your own in an apartment, but it doesn't necessarily offer enough to battle the mental struggle these prospects face. And before anyone brings up Chytil, not every prospect/person is the same. Some handle it better than others. It's just not something you can scout for

 

[Zine]

The more I think about it, professional players, in general, exist in a hockey bubble. They aren't as well-equipped to deal with off-ice life situations the way foreign exchange students, or multinational professionals can. Hence my point countering the guy who claimed athletes have an easier time adjusting because of access to more resources.

It doesn't matter what off-ice resources NHL teams provide players, transition can be 100x more difficult for a player whose life experiences are limited to hockey only. Said player goes overseas and everything he's taken for granted living in a bubble smacks him straight in the face in a foreign country.
Most players go overseas without caring to learn the language beforehand for christ sakes.

I've been listening to that spiiting chickets thing for the KHL perspective. Yea ok, they have an anti-Russian slant. I get it, no harm no foul. But I just want to slap these ex-KHL guests they have.
Of course life in Russia is difficult for a non-native, we get it, totally understandable. But all these cretins do is go on and on about the negatives, ad nauseam. These are grown men , not kids Kravtsov's age. Most of these players are so unworldly it's embarrassing. For as difficult as assimilation is, you had the luxury of experiencing life in a different culture. Embrace it and celebrate it like any educated person would you stupid meathead.

 

[Zine]

And as much as organizations try to help these kids, there's sometimes nothing they can do to battle the depression, loneliness, isolation etc. The mental challenge that a move like that brings with it sometimes can't be fixed by an organization just throwing millions at it. Kravtsov seemed happy all summer, because he had friends and family over visiting him. I spoke to people close to him here in NA, and they said he struggled immensely feeling lonely once they left. How do the Rangers fight that? How do the Rangers take away those feelings? The China story, where buying shoes is a challenge, where you can't even get decent pizza, to me hits much closer to home than what an American kid would deal with backpacking through Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands for a year.

Yep. All the ‘resources’ on the planet is not going to cure some kid's loneliness, short of signing all his buddies.

But it fits the pattern. A typical person will be enthralled with a new and exciting place at first. But soon the novelty wears off and you're faced with real life. Everything become a hassle. Loneliness and isolation set in. You find yourself hating everything. But eventually, if one puts forth the effort, at some point you start getting the hang of things and it just 'clicks'. Life becomes easier.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

To the people saying "Oh, the organization does everything for these players. They shouldn't have trouble adjusting", it's a much bigger change from Russia to the US than it is for an American kid to go to Europe. The US and Europe have a lot in common when it comes to life in general, whereas Russia is vastly different, especially a city like Chelyabinsk. Whoever it was who talked earlier about moving to China, that's a much better comparison as you don't speak the language, society as a whole is different, the language barrier is an issue, even if Kravtsov speaks a bit of English. Going from doing some interviews of conversations in English to speaking it all day every day, is a big change.

And as much as organizations try to help these kids, there's sometimes nothing they can do to battle the depression, loneliness, isolation etc. The mental challenge that a move like that brings with it sometimes can't be fixed by an organization just throwing millions at it. Kravtsov seemed happy all summer, because he had friends and family over visiting him. I spoke to people close to him here in NA, and they said he struggled immensely feeling lonely once they left. How do the Rangers fight that? How do the Rangers take away those feelings? The China story, where buying shoes is a challenge, where you can't even get decent pizza, to me hits much closer to home than what an American kid would deal with backpacking through Spain/France/Germany/Netherlands for a year.

The last thing I say is this: I don't think we should assume the Rangers are always dealing with every issue the best way they can. This "We're the best organization in the league" attitude drives me nuts sometimes. Sure, they have a seemingly unlimited stream of money to hire coaches, scouts, physios, personal trainers etc. Does that mean the support/assistance they provide is automatically the best? I don't know. It came up in the Kakko discussions over the summer. Saying the Rangers can offer him "the best doctors" to deal with his celiac disease and diabetis. As if that wasn't the case in Turku for some reason. The Rangers aren't perfect. To assume they are, would be foolish. Between Gropp, Lias and Kravtsov, the Rangers had 3 prospects making them look bad early in the season. 1 is an incident, 2 is a coincidence, but 3? I don't know. I have a hard time blaming 3 individuals without looking at the organization as well.

I agree with a lot of this, Steven, but you really should stop lumping Gropp in with LA and VK. A Canadian kid drafted in the second round now in his D+5 season who hasn’t managed to get a real sniff at the NHL and who then gets demoted to the ECHL deciding not to report is not at all uncommon and in no way appertains to what happened with the other two; that’s a kid at a career crossroads at the age of 23 wondering if he should hang ‘em up and go back to college in Western Alberta or whatever. It weakens your argument re: LA and VK (which I agree was enough of a red flag on its own!) by appearing to try to make the decision by Gropp something it’s not in order to further dramatize the issue.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean the reality is unless someone from Player Personnel comes out and details what the Rangers offer, we'll never know for sure. It strains logic to believe the resources they provide are not far more substantial than what average HF poster had at their disposal during their transition. Possible? I guess it's impossible to say otherwise. Likely? Not at all.

The thing is, things can be available to people that they might not utilize or even fully understand. And that's a problem itself, but a different one. That's one of communication, not making resources available. And it's hard for me to understand why Kravtsov, feeling so lost and overwhelmed, couldn't reach out to a Shesterkin or Rykov who were in Hartford, or even Georgiev or Buchnevich. These guys know each other in many cases before they even come over here. And by his own admission, Kravtsov's dad had him working on English since he was 10 or something. You mean to tell me he didn't have the mental faculty to figure out how to call someone to ask about a haircut? It might speak to his personality, maybe he's a huge introvert. But again, what can a team do in that instance?

Shipachyov was mentioned. Hearing his side of the story that sounds awful. But I can't believe he wasn't made more aware of the resources available to him both by social programs like 911 or the team itself. I mean that team was managed by GMGM, who built that Capitals team on the back of European and Russian players and didn't have any notable incidents as far as I recall. Seems incredibly unlikely that GMGM would pursue Shipachyov and then not provide him the resources he needed to thrive, since GMGM was very experienced there.

Everyone handles it differently. But if a guy is provided resources by the team and chooses not to use them or doesn't understand them, and doesn't have the wherewithal to reach out to a f***ing teammate, how can you fault the team for that? If the guy gets overwhelmed and curls up into a ball over the stress, again, what can you do?

And things like Gropp and Meskanen are so totally irrelevant to this conversation. I don't know why they're even being mentioned.

 

[Hunter Gathers]

Agreed, BRF. The Gropp comparison is incredibly stupid, in all honesty. Why is this once again coming up?

 

[Hunter Gathers]

And things like Gropp and Meskanen are so totally irrelevant to this conversation. I don't know why they're even being mentioned.

This is something I'd love to see answered, too. The entire comparison is just so lacking.

 

[Kovalev27]

I’m not worried about Kravtsov.

I think he made a really poor decision based on emotion and it snowballed on him. Now it’s about buying in and getting back to the player he’s supposed to be. It happens. I fully expect him to get a look after the deadline like Chytil and Lias did. And he’ll be an nhler next season after another summer of maturing and development.

 

[Zine]

And it's hard for me to understand why Kravtsov, feeling so lost and overwhelmed, couldn't reach out to a Shesterkin or Rykov who were in Hartford, or even Georgiev or Buchnevich. These guys know each other in many cases before they even come over here.

Because they’re Russian they all know each other intimately? Cmon now.

What possible incentive is there for, say, a Shestyorkin to give two craps about Kravtsov? Igor has his own domestic life and is preoccupied with chasing his own NHL dream. Why should he care to babysit some lonely 20 year old from redneck Chelyabinsk?

Now if an established vet is asked to do as such, take some young kid under his wing, show him the NHL ropes on a daily basis (see Gonchar/Malkin) yeah, that’s understandable. That's par-for-the-course. But that’s not the situation here.
What's Kravtsov gonna skype Buchnevich (who I don't think he knows very well) from Hartford? "Hello Pasha, speak with me. I'm lonely. We're Russians in this together!!!". Yeah, no.

 

[nyr2k2]

I’m not worried about Kravtsov.

I think he made a really poor decision based on emotion and it snowballed on him. Now it’s about buying in and getting back to the player he’s supposed to be. It happens. I fully expect him to get a look after the deadline like Chytil and Lias did. And he’ll be an nhler next season after another summer of maturing and development.

Yeah I hope this is how it plays out. Some people mentioned their projections for him this year as maybe getting 20-40 points. He's not there at the AHL level. So hopefully people can be patient with his offensive development next year, because I don't think based on what I've seen this year, that he'll suddenly be ready to be an impactful offensive player in the NHL next year. I mean maybe he practices and trains really hard and he is. I just think he clearly needs to spend time learning how to play in NA. Some people always poo-poo the change in ice sheet and the accompanying lack of space and time, but for a lot of guys it's a very real thing.

He just needs time. As long as HE is willing to give it time without getting too frustrated he should be fine.

 

[Tawnos]

Everyone handles it differently. But if a guy is provided resources by the team and chooses not to use them or doesn't understand them, and doesn't have the wherewithal to reach out to a ****ing teammate, how can you fault the team for that? If the guy gets overwhelmed and curls up into a ball over the stress, again, what can you do?

You can't, but I just wanted to mention that reaching out to anyone at all when you're suffering from depression can be really difficult. Even reaching out to family is hard.

 

[nyr2k2]

You can't, but I just wanted to mention that reaching out to anyone at all when you're suffering from depression can be really difficult. Even reaching out to family is hard.

As someone who has suffered from Bipolar depression for over 25 years--I know.

Is VK clinically depressed? Or is this just a hypothetical excuse?

 

[Tawnos]

As someone who has suffered from Bipolar depression for over 25 years--I know.

Is VK clinically depressed? Or is this just a hypothetical excuse?

It's certainly hypothetical on the clinical depression side, but he doesn't have to be clinically depressed to act in the same way. There are studies that show that loneliness changes your brain chemistry in a way that's pretty similar to clinical depression, once it passes a certain point. First, your brain chemistry is supposed to motivate you to seek out social interaction. Over a period of time, if you don't get that, then the chemistry changes and acts more like depression. So, if we're saying he was lonely, it's very possible that he reached that point.

I should be clear though, I'm just speculating on this. It certainly fits the events, but by no means does that make it the real story. I just wanted to bring up that reaching out isn't always as simple as just doing it, which you agreed with. Mostly, because there's a lot of misunderstanding out there of this stuff. I think we can move on.

 

[nyr2k2]

It's certainly hypothetical on the clinical depression side, but he doesn't have to be clinically depressed to act in the same way. There are studies that show that loneliness changes your brain chemistry in a way that's pretty similar to clinical depression, once it passes a certain point. First, your brain chemistry is supposed to motivate you to seek out social interaction. Over a period of time, if you don't get that, then the chemistry changes and acts more like depression. So, if we're saying he was lonely, it's very possible that he reached that point.

I should be clear though, I'm just speculating on this. It certainly fits the events, but by no means does that make it the real story. I just wanted to bring up that reaching out isn't always as simple as just doing it, which you agreed with. Mostly, because there's a lot of misunderstanding out there of this stuff. I think we can move on.

Okay, understood. Fair points.

I get the loneliness thing, as well. My recently-widowed mother just sent me an article literally yesterday about the physical effects of loneliness (since that's where she's at after losing my father). It's pretty awful, but also astonishing how real the physical effects can be.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be dismissive of any potential suffering on VK's end. I just have a hard time seeing legitimate, logical reasons to blame the team for whatever issues he may have had.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

And as much as organizations try to help these kids, there's sometimes nothing they can do to battle the depression, loneliness, isolation etc. The mental challenge that a move like that brings with it sometimes can't be fixed by an organization just throwing millions at it. Kravtsov seemed happy all summer, because he had friends and family over visiting him. I spoke to people close to him here in NA, and they said he struggled immensely feeling lonely once they left. How do the Rangers fight that? How do the Rangers take away those feelings?

The last thing I say is this: I don't think we should assume the Rangers are always dealing with every issue the best way they can. I don't know. I have a hard time blaming 3 individuals without looking at the organization as well.

It's good to consider whats in the bold but I think the honest answer to this is everything else I quoted. I dont think the org has much, if any significant blame in this.

And before anyone brings up Chytil, not every prospect/person is the same. Some handle it better than others. It's just not something you can scout for

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

That's fine, but it was still a blind play that could have (or did?) lead to a good scoring chance for the other team. He has to bang that hard off the boards.

It was a great defensive play, unfortunately it was negated when he gave it right back to them.

It's not really negated. He took a very dangerous chance and turned it into a standard, much more easily defend-able situation.

 

[Synergy27]

I do want to be clear that I was happy with the VK pick and am still very much a fan. I think he’s the linchpin to the rebuild honestly, and his success/failure is going to determine to a great extent the success /failure of the rebuild in general.

That said, I’m not backing off my assessment here. The Rangers are by all accounts a “classy” organization. Yeah, that can be defined in many ways, but one consistent thing you hear from players is that the amenities are second to none. I can’t for a second believe that VK wasn’t given access to whatever he needed to feel comfortable (outside of a roster spot obviously). Does that mean that transitioning here isn’t hard? Absolutely not. But yeah, he has it way better than an American college kid heading off to rural China. Without a doubt.

 

[JimmyG89]

Yea kind of an odd video to post considering he gave it up right away.

That's fine, but it was still a blind play that could have (or did?) lead to a good scoring chance for the other team. He has to bang that hard off the boards.

It was a great defensive play, unfortunately it was negated when he gave it right back to them.

That was going to be a grade A scoring chance. Right down the slot, and Kravtsov broke that play up.

Did it go to another guy's stick? Sure it did, but it went from a very good chance to a lesser one where more plays had to be strung together.

I'll take that play any day of the week from our forwards. Over time, there is a good chance that play turns into him stealing the puck and making a play on it as he builds more strength and sense of what to do.

The key was the effort. Was behind the net of the other end of the ice and went 160 feet to make that specific play. That's an improvement from just 2 months ago.

 

[Kaapo Bustfreniere]

It's certainly hypothetical on the clinical depression side, but he doesn't have to be clinically depressed to act in the same way. There are studies that show that loneliness changes your brain chemistry in a way that's pretty similar to clinical depression, once it passes a certain point. First, your brain chemistry is supposed to motivate you to seek out social interaction. Over a period of time, if you don't get that, then the chemistry changes and acts more like depression. So, if we're saying he was lonely, it's very possible that he reached that point.

I should be clear though, I'm just speculating on this. It certainly fits the events, but by no means does that make it the real story. I just wanted to bring up that reaching out isn't always as simple as just doing it, which you agreed with. Mostly, because there's a lot of misunderstanding out there of this stuff. I think we can move on.

A bit off topic: do you by any chance have any link to such a paper? Sounds really interesting and I am currently studying for my neuro science exam so it piqued my interest.

Anyway. To contribute anything at all to the discussion, I absolutely agree with you guys about the loneliness angle and I do not see any red flags at the moment with VK as he has seemingly turned a corner recently.

 

[nyr2k2]

A bit off topic: do you by any chance have any link to such a paper? Sounds really interesting and I am currently studying for my neuro science exam so it piqued my interest.

Anyway. To contribute anything at all to the discussion, I absolutely agree with you guys about the loneliness angle and I do not see any red flags at the moment with VK as he has seemingly turned a corner recently.

This is not a study, but it references a "landmark" study and quotes one of the authors. It's what my mom sent me yesterday.

Could There Be a Cure for Social Isolation?

 

[Leetch3]

This is not a study, but it references a "landmark" study and quotes one of the authors. It's what my mom sent me yesterday.

Could There Be a Cure for Social Isolation?

This is not The Greatest Song in the World, no.
This is just a tribute.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Need to be careful with Kravtsov. He’s a kid who just turned 20, not much education, his Mom was with whole time in Stamford, he was destined for NY according to all the preseason hype and how finds himself is lonely Hartford. It’s not like has a day job, so what does a 20 year old Russian kid with limited English do all day in Hartford?

Imagine being 19-20 years old and sent to Moscow to play hockey yet you’re stuck in a lonely City like Hartford all day and not speaking much Russian.

It’s a lot