Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #9 - Vitali Kravtsov (RW) - Part VI

[Rempe73]

Just very concerning that the vast majority of our prospects are progressing great (hell, even guys like Skinner and Jones are killing it), some even going beyond expectations, while our top 10 picks are struggling and seemed to have taken a step back. I’ll admit I’m not very patient though.

Andersson - Not producing in Hartford. Small sample size, sure, but come on.

Kravtsov - Ugh he was one of my favorite prospects in the league. Someone give me hope.

Kakko - Up and down, but he’s still so young. And it’s not like he took a step back like the two above.

Then again, prospects taking a step back one year and rebounding the next, especially top 10 prospects, isn’t unheard of. It happens all the time. I hope that’s all it is. Just a down year for these two.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I know, this was discussed before. I don't think he needs "skill development". I think he needs to get stronger, he needs to learn how to not try to dangle around the entire opposing team, he needs to learn the Rangers' system. So, I understand your point, I just don't think there's much to it.

The argument that so many of "us" have made is that what he needs is to be here, learning how to succeed as a professional in North America. And then that's countered with, "The KHL is a better league than the AHL and he can learn North American stuff later." Your post aligns well with the latter camp, so while it is certainly an opinion, it's not really one I can subscribe to.

And I would argue that there is precedent of KHL players playing well into their 20s doing all the same dangling around whole teams nonsense and coming to the NHL and succeeding. We don't have to look any farther than Artemi Panarin for Exhibit A.

 

[LeetchisGod]

Just very concerning that the vast majority of our prospects are progressing great (hell, even guys like Skinner and Jones are killing it), some even going beyond expectations, while our top 10 picks are struggling and seemed to have taken a step back. I’ll admit I’m not very patient though.

Andersson - Not producing in Hartford. Small sample size, sure, but come on.

Kravtsov - Ugh he was one of my favorite prospects in the league. Someone give me hope.

Kakko - Up and down, but he’s still so young. And it’s not like he took a step back like the two above.

Then again, prospects taking a step back one year and rebounding the next, especially top 10 prospects, isn’t unheard of. It happens all the time. I hope that’s all it is. Just a down year for these two.

I feel incredibly confident in saying that Kakko isn't a worry whatsoever.

 

[Rempe73]

You can evaluate him as much as you want. I just don't think a rough couple of months should define how we look at a prospect. Everyone was head over heels about the kid all last year. Now that he has a few down months, everyone has soured. But everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just want to preach patience.

If a couple of months shouldn’t define a prospect in a negative way, what about the prospects that have had a great couple of months, like Fox and Chytil? You can’t have it both ways.

 

[Rempe73]

I feel incredibly confident in saying that Kakko isn't a worry whatsoever.

I feel that. I’m just worried that he loses confidence so quickly. If he can be confident more consistently, he’ll be a beast.

 

[The New Russian Five]

I haven't soured on him. I just think he made a poor decision here and I'm disappointed in that decision, him, and how it's all playing out. He's still an elite talent and my hope is that this time next year, it's all forgotten. I'm just afraid it turns into basically a lost season, where nothing is gained developmentally.

Whether he is playing in the AHL or KHL, at least he's playing and developing. Every game he plays in the KHL another lesson is learned. We could argue one league is better than the other for his development. But in no such form can this be considered "a lost season"

 

[The New Russian Five]

If a couple of months shouldn’t define a prospect in a negative way, what about the prospects that have had a great couple of months, like Fox and Chytil? You can’t have it both ways.

I totally agree. I am cautiously optimistic about the both of them. I still have some concerns about Chytil's play. As good as he has been there isn't any aspect of his game I would call exceptional, so I worry if his current production is sustainable. I will need to see more.

I can say the same about Fox, but his IQ is so high. I can't see that aspect of his game regressing and I think it is what has made his game so successful so far. Nevertheless, I want to wait until his 2nd season to really put an evaluation on what he can be. It is still too soon to say.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Andersson - Not producing in Hartford. Small sample size, sure, but come on.

Kravtsov - Ugh he was one of my favorite prospects in the league. Someone give me hope.

Kakko - Up and down, but he’s still so young. And it’s not like he took a step back like the two above.

Then again, prospects taking a step back one year and rebounding the next, especially top 10 prospects, isn’t unheard of. It happens all the time. I hope that’s all it is. Just a down year for these two.

Andersson has been disappointing for sure, but realistically he was a safe pick with not a ton of upside. Everyone hoped he could overcome it but thus far he hasn’t

Kravstov made a bad choice (in my opinion) to go home, but he’s still young and can hopefully end the year strong with Hartford. But pretty much everyone overestimated his NHL readiness

And Kakko I don’t think is worth getting worked up over. Svechnikov went through a similar season last year, and this year he’s lighting it up.

Everything will work itself out in the end

 

[Rempe73]

I totally agree. I am cautiously optimistic about the both of them. I still have some concerns about Chytil's play. As good as he has been there isn't any aspect of his game I would call exceptional, so I worry if his current production is sustainable. I will need to see more.

I can say the same about Fox, but his IQ is so high. I can't see that aspect of his game regressing and I think it is what has made his game so successful so far. Nevertheless, I want to wait until his 2nd season to really put an evaluation on what he can be. It is still too soon to say.

Well said. I love Chytil, but something seems to be missing. He has definitely gotten better and fixed some of his flaws (better defense, better puck control, doesn’t look as lost when he doesn’t have the puck), but he still seems pretty raw to me. That’s not a bad thing, as I appreciate his upside.

As a prospect, Fox is as close to a sure thing as possible in my opinion. He’s the only prospect that I have zero concerns with, and my hopes for him are higher than any other prospect we have not named Kakko.

 

[17futurecap]

65 goals in 35 games for Traktor, what an absolute shit show and waste of a year on his ELC.

 

[The New Russian Five]

Well said. I love Chytil, but something seems to be missing. He has definitely gotten better and fixed some of his flaws (better defense, better puck control, doesn’t look as lost when he doesn’t have the puck), but he still seems pretty raw to me. That’s not a bad thing, as I appreciate his upside.

As a prospect, Fox is as close to a sure thing as possible in my opinion. He’s the only prospect that I have zero concerns with, and my hopes for him are higher than any other prospect we have not named Kakko.

Right now I see him as a very good 3C. Someone who is reliable and chips in the odd goal here and there. I want to see him take the next step. I think that might still be a year away. He's still growing into his body. You're right a lot of upside, but hasn't hit it yet. Which is exciting, but will he hit it?

Similarly, Kravtsov still in my mind still has tremendous upside. I just think he will take longer to develop than was anticipated. This is not to say that Kravtsov might not end up being a bust, but I think we are still very very far from that conversation. On these boards whether you like it or not, we are discussing 18 and 19-year-old kids. Everyone develops differently, both physically and mentally.

 

[Rempe73]

Andersson has been disappointing for sure, but realistically he was a safe pick with not a ton of upside. Everyone hoped he could overcome it but thus far he hasn’t

Kravstov made a bad choice (in my opinion) to go home, but he’s still young and can hopefully end the year strong with Hartford. But pretty much everyone overestimated his NHL readiness

And Kakko I don’t think is worth getting worked up over. Svechnikov went through a similar season last year, and this year he’s lighting it up.

Everything will work itself out in the end

Svechnikov was pretty unlucky his first season. The metrics say he drove offense at a high level 5v5. Kakko isn’t doing that.

If I’m drafting a “safe” pick in the top 10, and his upside isn’t very high, I want him in the NHL and producing decent numbers ASAP. Or why draft him? It’s a different story if the player was drafted later on, or if the player has a high ceiling. But the only reason you draft safe in the top 10 is you hope the player is able to produce by his 2nd year. Or develop into a 2nd liner. Now it’s looking like Andersson won’t be ready until his 4th year at best. This wouldn’t be a problem if we were waiting for a 2nd line center. But we’re waiting for a bottom 6 player.

Still, I have very high hopes for Kravtsov and Kakko. They need to become good players for us.

 

[nyr2k2]

Whether he is playing in the AHL or KHL, at least he's playing and developing. Every game he plays in the KHL another lesson is learned. We could argue one league is better than the other for his development. But in no such form can this be considered "a lost season"

If you're of the opinion that the kid needs to develop his game to North American standards, and that he needs to learn our system, and familiarize himself with our coaches and their expectations, and instead he spends 35 games toiling on a shitty KHL team while simply "developing his skills", then yeah, you could absolutely find room to consider it a lost season.

Just because he's playing some games, doesn't mean it's a net positive in his development when considering what he could have been doing.

 

[nyr2k2]

And I would argue that there is precedent of KHL players playing well into their 20s doing all the same dangling around whole teams nonsense and coming to the NHL and succeeding. We don't have to look any farther than Artemi Panarin for Exhibit A.

Look, this conversation is only happening because he came here, struggled, and left. Now, you invariably have questions about whether his game will translate and whether he has the desire to make it translate. Yeah, had he stayed another 4 years, we'd probably all be eagerly anticipating his debut when he finally did come over. But he chose a different path, which altered the perceptions of him among many.

It's the old Rumsfeldian "known unknowns" vs "unknown unknowns." If he stayed and continued to succeed, any concerns about him being able to succeed in North America would be minimal. Instead, he came, and left at the first sign of adversity, and now there are some known concerns.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Kravtsov should be in Hartford...imo he is stifling his own development and from my point of view what he was missing to compete in the NHL was physical strength. It's a problem with a lot of Russian players that they dont put as much into core strength than the N.A. players do.

 

[darko]

65 goals in 35 games for Traktor, what an absolute **** show and waste of a year on his ELC.

Wow Kravtsov is on fire!!!

 

[Zine]

If you're of the opinion that the kid needs to develop his game to North American standards, and that he needs to learn our system, and familiarize himself with our coaches and their expectations, and instead he spends 35 games toiling on a ****ty KHL team while simply "developing his skills", then yeah, you could absolutely find room to consider it a lost season.

Just because he's playing some games, doesn't mean it's a net positive in his development when considering what he could have been doing.

It's only a lost season if Kravtsov continues to sulk. If he had/has no intention of putting forth a solid effort, it doesn't matter where he plays. The end result will be the same.

But to claim he can't develop his game to North American standards in the KHL is complete rubbish (even with Traktor).
Look no further than other high profile Russians who 'took their ball and went home' only to return to the NHL significantly better and more well-rounded players:

-Immensely talented Dadonov was wasting away in the AHL before he left for the KHL to develop properly. He's now a 1st liner on Florida.
-Despite being a hot-head, Radulov returned to the NHL from his KHL stint an unquestionably better and more well-rounded player than he was with Nashville.
-Nichushkin, who always had hands of stone, redefined his game in the KHL and is now arguably Colorado's best defensive forward next to Landeskog.

 

[nyr2k2]

It's only a lost season if Kravtsov continues to sulk. If he had/has no intention of putting forth a solid effort, it doesn't matter where he plays. The end result will be the same.

But to claim he can't develop his game to North American standards in the KHL is complete rubbish (even with Traktor).
Look no further than other high profile Russians who 'took their ball and went home' only to return to the NHL significantly better and more well-rounded players:

-Immensely talented Dadonov was wasting away in the AHL before he left for the KHL to develop properly. He's now a 1st liner on Florida.
-Despite being a hot-head, Radulov returned to the NHL from his KHL stint an unquestionably better and more well-rounded player than he was with Nashville.
-Nichushkin, who always had hands of stone, redefined his game in the KHL and is now arguably Colorado's best defensive forward next to Landeskog.

I didn't claim he can't develop his game to a more NA-style in the KHL. I literally said nothing of the sort. You would only get that if you intentionally ignored the rest of what I said I believed--that he needs to be here learning our systems and familiarizing himself with our coaches and their expectations. You seized on one piece of something that was meant as a larger whole. Why, I don't know. Well, I do, but whatever.

Of course he CAN get "better" in the KHL, as I have repeatedly acknowledged through this thread and others, and it is my hope (AGAIN restating this) that this season ends up a positive and in a year this is all largely forgotten. I am absolutely hopeful this will be beneficial for him.

However, I do worry that the things the coaches identified as areas needing improvement WON'T be a focus of his, and we'll be in the same spot next year with him not being ready for NA play, needing a lot of refining, etc. And then I would consider this a lost year, if that's the case.

So, yeah. Dadonov, Radulov, whoever. Maybe he can be those guys! Never said he couldn't.

 

[Zine]

I didn't claim he can't develop his game to a more NA-style in the KHL. I literally said nothing of the sort. You would only get that if you intentionally ignored the rest of what I said I believed--that he needs to be here learning our systems and familiarizing himself with our coaches and their expectations. You seized on one piece of something that was meant as a larger whole. Why, I don't know. Well, I do, but whatever.

Of course he CAN get "better" in the KHL, as I have repeatedly acknowledged through this thread and others, and it is my hope (AGAIN restating this) that this season ends up a positive and in a year this is all largely forgotten. I am absolutely hopeful this will be beneficial for him.

However, I do worry that the things the coaches identified as areas needing improvement WON'T be a focus of his, and we'll be in the same spot next year with him not being ready for NA play, needing a lot of refining, etc. And then I would consider this a lost year, if that's the case.

So, yeah. Dadonov, Radulov, whoever. Maybe he can be those guys! Never said he couldn't.

I'm not ignoring anything.
Kravtsov does NOT need to be in Hartford familiarizing himself with the Rangers system, coaches and expectations. Not at 20 years old. Totally unnecessary.

In fact, there’s no precedent to suggest the AHL is beneficial in any capacity for ensuring a quicker and more complete NHL transition for Russian players, particularly for elite forwards of which Kravtsov is for his age group.

The last high-end NHL Russian forward to spend any significant time in the AHL was Dadonov in 2012; and he needed to return to KHL to develop into an NHL player.
Before Dadonov? Sergei Samsonov, 22 years ago. That’s right, 2 decades ago.

Getting his ass out of the AHL was the best decision Kravtsov could've made. Now whether he takes advantage of his opportunity in the KHL is an entirely different issue altogether.

 

[egelband]

hope he isn't drinking

Was going to say... I wonder if there’s something more going on. Drinking, video games, or even something like depression or an undiagnosed concussion. Just a thought. Anyhow, hopefully it’s just growing pains, so to speak.

 

[Hanji]

The last high-end NHL Russian forward to spend any significant time in the AHL was Dadonov in 2012; and he needed to return to KHL to develop into an NHL player.
Before Dadonov? Sergei Samsonov, 22 years ago. That’s right, 2 decades ago.

That doesn't sound right, but if true it’s a scary statistic.
I mean the amount of Russkies who have passed through the AHL in 20 years must be well into the hundreds. Numerous higher draft picks. And Dadanov is the only skater who developed into a first line forward?

 

[Zine]

That doesn't sound right, but if true it’s a scary statistic.
I mean the amount of Russkies who have passed through the AHL in 20 years must be well into the hundreds. Numerous higher draft picks. And Dadanov is the only skater who developed into a first line forward?

It’s a surprising statistic for those who are too biased or uneducated to realize it.

But, yea, in 22 years only one Russian (who has spent any considerable time in the AHL) has developed into anything resembling an upper tier NHLer. At least for forwards anyways. Not to mention the player in question was actually declining in the AHL and had to go to KHL to right the ship.

By and large, the AHL is a flaming pile for our prospect’s development.

 

[TheDirtyH]

I mean, percentage-wise, most top line players of any country will not have spent 'considerable time' in the AHL. I don't think Russians are unique in this.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I mean, percentage-wise, most top line players of any country will not have spent 'considerable time' in the AHL. I don't think Russians are unique in this.

Part of the lack of Russians succeeding in the AHL is because their domestic league is just better. To a degree, this goes for Swedes as well. There's just no reason to move to North America to play in the AHL at age 18 or 19. It's different for Swiss, Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians, Germans and to a degree Finns. But this notion that players can't make the NHL without spending time in the AHL to "adjust to the rink size" (Which is the dumbest narrative ever. It's more about style of hockey) is just misplaced. Good players will reach the NHL based on their talent. The players who don't, wouldn't have made it if their walked a different path.

The AHL isn't by any means the death to careers as some defending players make it out to be, but at the same time it's not the only path to success in the NHL.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Again, this thing about the AHL being bad for Russians probably wouldn’t exist if they got paid the same in the AHL as they do in the KHL