Of course there are the Gilroys, my point was that there are also the Burns and Buffs. I'm not saying Miller will be an all star like them, I just dont think this is a fair thing to criticize him for.
Prospect Info: 2018 NHL Draft / Pick #22 - K'Andre Miller (D)
- Thread starter Pavel Buchnevich
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Rempe73
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If he develops into a top 4 defenseman we aren’t going to care about that 48oa. With Wilde, Zeleno,Bokk and Miller still on the board I would have been happy to keep 48oa and land one of those 4.
But it is likely because he talks to scouts from some teams and has idea which players most teams are really liking.
AKA Chief
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- Sep 29, 2017
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I was posing a question, not necessarily criticizing the player. I think it's a fair point to bring up. If you told me that Miller had been playing both forward and defense the last 2 years, and was adept at both, I would feel better about the comparisons to Burns and Byfuglien. At this point, no one is saying this kid could be an NHL forward. He's a project defenseman.
All in all, I don't mind the pick. You have a surplus of picks like the Rangers did/do and you can trade up and take more chances. There was talk the Leafs wanted him and the fact that they traded down once the Rangers took him backs that up.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I don't think Skjei's the most talented, but he's not a disaster defensively. At least he can competently play middle pairing defense, and give us 25 points. On a defense with many issues, he's not one of them. Actually, maybe the biggest issue is that Skjei is the farthest thing on our defense from an issue.
This guy? Maybe the offense is similar where he gets points from being good in transition instead of making really nice offensive plays, but his decision making is pretty pitiful and he really doesn't compare well defensively to Skjei right now. I'm not convinced he'll develop his defensive game anywhere near where Skjei did. But I guess thats his upside. Downside is probably John Moore before he turned into a competent NHL'er.
I am guessing his talents are his speed, agility, physicality, his hands are likely slow and not that good.
AIexisLafreniereNYR
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is the comparison to seth jones legit? or pure lazy that it was the only other black dman they could think of? 
Lays
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- Jan 22, 2017
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Mehis the comparison to seth jones legit? or pure lazy that it was the only other black dman they could think of?
Miller has a lot of untapped potential and it’s obvious
He’s a great skater (especially for his size) and physical. Engages in the play and also can rush up the ice to make offensive plays. Very good stick work defensive but needs to improve his position defensively. I really like his defensive game though. I think he legit has top pairing potential
is the comparison to seth jones legit? or pure lazy that it was the only other black dman they could think of?
not legit, Jones was much better and went 4th overall. I am guessing more physical and less offensive Skjei.
WesMcCauley
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- Apr 24, 2015
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I think he has extremely high potential. The guy is a complete beast physically. He can skate and i love this pick. I like taking guys with crazy potential like him that you have no clue how it will turn out. Seems like he has a great personality aswell. He is a Seth Jones type defensemen although not as developed obviously because if he was he would have been a top 3 pick. Tall, strong, very athletic and great skater just like Jones.
WesMcCauley
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The comparison is legit imo, Jones was just more developed at the time of the draft.
WesMcCauley
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I really like K'Andre Miller.
He gets typecast as this raw project with enormous upside, but I think he's a much more developed player with less downside than people give him credit for.
The upside is obvious. He's 6'4", one of the strongest players in the draft, and one of the best skaters in the draft. Physically, you could compare him to Hedman.
He profiles extremely well based on his current play, not just potential upside. If you read Mitchell Brown's article on draft eligible defensemen (Brown: The best NHL draft-eligible defencemen in five CHL... - this is paid, but the Athletic costs less than beer a month and if you don't subscribe to it, it's your fault):
- He's one of the most impressive pre-draft offensive defensemen in North America already. He's 2nd in scoring chances generated by shots per 60 minutes for North American players, ahead of Dobson, Bouchard, Merkley, etc. He's He's 2nd in scoring changes generated from assists per 60 minutes, ahead of Dobson, Bouchard, Ty Smith, etc. Statistically, in terms of generating scoring changes per 60 minutes, he's the most impressive player in the draft already.
- He's one of the most impressive pre-draft defensive defensemen in North America already. He was 2nd best player in controlled exit percentage, ahead of everyone but Beaudin. He was the best player in Neutral Zone defense.
So it seems to me like he is already at least one of the best North American defensemen in this draft class before you start talking about upside. Then his upside is enormous on top of that. He probably has the most physical ability of any player in the draft and he is going into a fantastic developmental situation at Wisconsin. The sky is the limit for him.
I think you could make a case that, based on his combination of current talent and upside, he's a more attractive prospect than Bouchard or Dobson, who are blue chip prospects in their own right.
That said, I'm not crazy about the Rangers giving up the 48th pick to move up. With Veleno (and others) still on the board at 26, it seems like they still could have gotten a very good player, even if it wasn't Miller, without moving up. And with Berggren, McLeod, Tychonick, Hallander, Oloffson, Ylonen, Wise etc still on the board at the end of the day, it seems like that 48th pick could be really valuable.
So even though I love the K'Andre Miller pick, I do question the decision to give up the 48th pick to move up and take him.
He gets typecast as this raw project with enormous upside, but I think he's a much more developed player with less downside than people give him credit for.
The upside is obvious. He's 6'4", one of the strongest players in the draft, and one of the best skaters in the draft. Physically, you could compare him to Hedman.
He profiles extremely well based on his current play, not just potential upside. If you read Mitchell Brown's article on draft eligible defensemen (Brown: The best NHL draft-eligible defencemen in five CHL... - this is paid, but the Athletic costs less than beer a month and if you don't subscribe to it, it's your fault):
- He's one of the most impressive pre-draft offensive defensemen in North America already. He's 2nd in scoring chances generated by shots per 60 minutes for North American players, ahead of Dobson, Bouchard, Merkley, etc. He's He's 2nd in scoring changes generated from assists per 60 minutes, ahead of Dobson, Bouchard, Ty Smith, etc. Statistically, in terms of generating scoring changes per 60 minutes, he's the most impressive player in the draft already.
- He's one of the most impressive pre-draft defensive defensemen in North America already. He was 2nd best player in controlled exit percentage, ahead of everyone but Beaudin. He was the best player in Neutral Zone defense.
So it seems to me like he is already at least one of the best North American defensemen in this draft class before you start talking about upside. Then his upside is enormous on top of that. He probably has the most physical ability of any player in the draft and he is going into a fantastic developmental situation at Wisconsin. The sky is the limit for him.
I think you could make a case that, based on his combination of current talent and upside, he's a more attractive prospect than Bouchard or Dobson, who are blue chip prospects in their own right.
That said, I'm not crazy about the Rangers giving up the 48th pick to move up. With Veleno (and others) still on the board at 26, it seems like they still could have gotten a very good player, even if it wasn't Miller, without moving up. And with Berggren, McLeod, Tychonick, Hallander, Oloffson, Ylonen, Wise etc still on the board at the end of the day, it seems like that 48th pick could be really valuable.
So even though I love the K'Andre Miller pick, I do question the decision to give up the 48th pick to move up and take him.
Pavel Buchnevich
"Pavel Buchnevich The Fake"
I'm all for upside. I had Boqvist 3rd, most had him outside the top 5. I had Wilde 7th, most had him 15-25, and he fell out of the first round.
I think there's often an issue with figuring out who just isn't very good and who has upside that they haven't yet come close to reaching. Its no exact science, so its really just a guessing game. In this case, I've not really been very convinced.
I actually made the first post in his thread on the prospect board during this season. He's had a thread since Dec. 2014, but there was almost a year gap between my post and the previous one in the thread. On July 10th, I said.
Going into the season, I think my opinion was almost exactly what I think the Rangers current opinion is. But I saw a lot of Miller's play this year, and I didn't see much of any improvement. I thought he might've even started to regress from what I saw in his U17 season. The offense is pretty similar to last season. He gets his points in transition, carrying the puck. He has a pretty good shot. Not much of an offensive guy, besides that. Defensively, the defense really has not improved. Its almost exactly the same as what I saw last year. There are a lot of positioning errors, turns the puck over in the wrong areas, he's physical but doesn't really use it to his advantage yet.
I posted a video in the Draft thread I think on Wednesday that someone made about a lot of little subtle fundamental problems in Bouchard's game that add up to what that person thought was a low IQ hockey player. I see a lot of the same things in Miller's game. Nothing that terrible, but it adds up throughout a game.
So I'm really not very convinced. I don't particularly see anything overly creative or skillful offensively. Offensively, best case scenario is probably Skjei. Thats not bad, but I currently don't see him as anything close to Seth Jones offensively. And then defensively, I've watched him play for two years, and I've yet to see any improvement. He's a below-average defensive player right now, in my opinion. I think what the video about Bouchard shows is that sometimes there's a good reason that a player struggles with subtle fundamental areas of defense. Some of these things may not be corrected.
I would've not suggested to pick this kid prior to the draft, so I shouldn't lie and say I thought it was an excellent pick. I think this pick reminds me a lot of a high character Sean Day or maybe even a John Moore type of player. Something of that sort. I didn't watch that much of Day in his draft season, but I see a lot of the same things in pre-draft Miller in what I see of post draft Day. I've always thought Day's talent was overrated. And I think part of why he's not really maximized his ability up to this point is work ethic and character.
The good thing about this pick is that Miller is that the reports have him with a very good work ethic and character, not something you could say about day. And as I mentioned earlier, he received awful coaching this year. I don't think that helps. It is possible he is capable of improving, and the issue was completely the coaching, and not at all about Miller. Appert is that bad of a coach, and I think he's hurt the development of many of the kids he coached this year.
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I definitely LOVE this pick. This is my scouting report on him:
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10. K’Andre Miller, LD, 6'4" 205 lbs
K’Andre Miller is a tremendously gifted hockey player who likely made a very good decision converting to D. I have wrestled some back and forth with myself on how high I should rank him, if he was a right handed shot I believe I would have had him a lot higher. But K’Ander Miller’s biggest contribution will come on the power play and most top power play units in the NHL are sat up by a left handed playmaker on the right side with a shooting option on the right side. In such set-up – a right shooting defender is to prefer since he can swing the puck from the point to the RHS on the left side faster. Hence some teams could face a need for some adjustment to incorporate Miller on their top PP unit. Miller is further along the development curve – for a forward converted to D – than any other player in that position that I have seen. When Brent Burns converted to D the game was a little slower and it was easier to for a defender to live on his size, but Burns’ lateral movement defensively was non-existent.
Miller has a great reach, he plays solid defensively albeit obviously still being a bit rough around the edges, he sees the ice very well in front of him and has a crisp and hard passing game. He moves well laterally on the blueline and his ability to find open lanes for his heavy shot is very good.
As the game becomes faster, forwards smaller and the ref’s improve their ability to spot the rule violating plays – size and reach will become more important for defenders, not less important. The same applies offensively in light of forwards and Ds ability in the game today to get into shooting lanes. Someone with the reach of Miller can use it as a tool to thread shots around forwards coming at them easier than smaller Ds.
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10. K’Andre Miller, LD, 6'4" 205 lbs
K’Andre Miller is a tremendously gifted hockey player who likely made a very good decision converting to D. I have wrestled some back and forth with myself on how high I should rank him, if he was a right handed shot I believe I would have had him a lot higher. But K’Ander Miller’s biggest contribution will come on the power play and most top power play units in the NHL are sat up by a left handed playmaker on the right side with a shooting option on the right side. In such set-up – a right shooting defender is to prefer since he can swing the puck from the point to the RHS on the left side faster. Hence some teams could face a need for some adjustment to incorporate Miller on their top PP unit. Miller is further along the development curve – for a forward converted to D – than any other player in that position that I have seen. When Brent Burns converted to D the game was a little slower and it was easier to for a defender to live on his size, but Burns’ lateral movement defensively was non-existent.
Miller has a great reach, he plays solid defensively albeit obviously still being a bit rough around the edges, he sees the ice very well in front of him and has a crisp and hard passing game. He moves well laterally on the blueline and his ability to find open lanes for his heavy shot is very good.
As the game becomes faster, forwards smaller and the ref’s improve their ability to spot the rule violating plays – size and reach will become more important for defenders, not less important. The same applies offensively in light of forwards and Ds ability in the game today to get into shooting lanes. Someone with the reach of Miller can use it as a tool to thread shots around forwards coming at them easier than smaller Ds.
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RalphyDanger
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KirkAlbuquerque
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He's also one of the best natural athletes in the draft, and I don't think he fully develops for another 2-3 more years. The skating at his size, covers a lot of ground.
TOR's Dubas is a big believer in analytics. They were looking at grabbing him. Miller has some incredible advanced stats. One of which is his neutral zone shutdown ability.
Let me put it this way, he's played a number of flawless games where he shutdown the opposition before they could do anything. I wouldn't consider myself a corsi guy by any stretch, but on a merged data set using a percentile rank against his peers (MitchLBrown), Miller's body of work underlying numbers blew away his teammate in the same game (Wilde vs weaker players). The disparity isn't negligible, and the eye test would attest. Only 7 games though, but the difference is huge.
What I didn't like- is that he was used as a 3rd pair guy out there with the USNDP.... who aren't known for their scouting prowess, but a kid playing defense for the first time in his life needs to eat big minutes. That's not going to happen in college either when Wisconsin has a top 4 that consists of returning players. You really have to bank on K'Andre stealing those minutes, and even then, it's going to be 22-23 a night max across 34 games, instead of the 30 in juniors over 72 games.
Dijock94
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- Apr 1, 2016
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I actually like the Brady Skjei comparison i saw yesterday, though i think Miller as more offensive upside.
The price paid to move up was a bit steep but i really like the pick, he's an insane athlete and hes developed really nicely the last few years.
The price paid to move up was a bit steep but i really like the pick, he's an insane athlete and hes developed really nicely the last few years.
According to Bobby Mac some had him in their top 10.
I think some scouting services had him wrong, but I think a big reason for that was due to him having all these good Ds infront of him. Hughes, Samuelsson and so forth. Wilde.
A defensemen is not going to play super confident small margin defense on a 3rd pairing, it’s not happening. The pts won’t pile up.
I had him 10th in April because I really liked how well the kid played overall. Good defense, good offense, very good physically. A lot of potential in him. Leave him a few years in college. Has No 1 potential.
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