GDT: 2018 Free Agency: Jay Beagle 4 x 3M, Antoine Roussel 4 x 3.25M, both w/ limited NTCs

[Canadian Canuck]

Fair comments, I just don't feel like Beagle will drop off much in 4 years. I hate the contract term wise as it blocks prospects; however, I don't hate the player.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Dinosaur execs overvalue grit and character. They chase it. Overpay for it. This is not limited to FA signings. We saw this with VAN paying a 3rd for Dorsett. Overpaying for Sutter etc... That they are extending this practice to FA, doesn’t turn it from prehistoric thinking to innovative thinking. It pushes prehistoric thinking into overdrive. That’s why it’s seldom done. Most GMs don’t double down in poor practice.

Hope that clears it up for you.
.

That is the thing though. We don't live the NHL life and don't see the behind the scenes of how valuable players like that are to a young team.

 

[MrBojangles]

Elder has a NTC but I wouldn’t mind this I don’t know if he is the greatest mentor for the group I could be wrong but it doesn’t seem all that vocal or leadership material

Ya I know and he loves Vancouver and all that yadayada lol

But he’s UFA in 12months, u don’t really have a need for him. And we’ve seen how this management performs if it comes down to trading him at deadline.
Also there’s chance he gets injured in season then u lose him next summer for nothing.

Trading Edler is something that probably should have happeneed in 2013

 

[CanaFan]

I still think Julie can be a Hampis Lindholm type guy that definitely first pair

I don’t think he realistically has that ceiling. Lindholm was putting up 30 pts on a good Ducks team in his D+2 while Juolevi looked terrible in camp and preseason in his D+2.

 

[xtra]

Fair comments, I just don't feel like Beagle will drop off much in 4 years. I hate the contract term wise as it blocks prospects; however, I don't hate the player.

He’s a 4th line player now he doesn’t have much leeway before not being an NHL player so there can’t be any real falloff

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Too many bodies, not enough roster spots.

Baertschi Horvat Boeser
Eriksson Sutter Pettersson
Granlund Gagner Virtanen
Roussel Beagle Schaller

The following players will be on the outside looking in.

Gaudette
Gaunce
Leipsic
Goldobin
Dahlen

I thought we were going to see a youth movement this year? F**k this s*it

 

[passive voice]

Tanev Edler Hughes Juolevi Voynov

Those are 5 top pairing defensemen right there. How can you honestly disagree?

In awe of every aspect of this post. Immortal take.

 

[Bleach Clean]

That is the thing though. We don't live the NHL life and don't see the behind the scenes of how valuable players like that are to a young team.

We cannot quantify that value. As a result, how could you say it's valuable with certainty?

 

[F A N]

We cannot quantify that value. As a result, how could you say it's valuable with certainty?

Well we cannot quantify things like love and faith so how could you say it's valuable with certainty huh? Hate to live your life.

 

[biturbo19]

Fair comments, I just don't feel like Beagle will drop off much in 4 years. I hate the contract term wise as it blocks prospects; however, I don't hate the player.

I like Beagle the player too. He's a guy i actually advocated for targeting...many many moons ago when we were a more competitive team because i liked him as a player and thought he was a bit underutilized and could be a solid pickup. He's the sort of guy who can anchor a Cup Caliber 4th line, as recently demonstrated. He's basically a slightly less abrasive version of what Lappy was for our own Cup run, and i loved Lappy.

But is that really what we need right now?

The other issue, is that as @xtra pointed out...he's a 4th line player now. He's going to be 33 years old when this coming season starts. He's already halfway over the precipice of where the vast majority of players (especially lower skill ones) start to decline hard. It would defy most common examples if he doesn't fall off a cliff as soon as next year...much less as he ticks over into his 35 and 36 year old seasons...still at a $3M cap hit. The guys who manage to defy the odds and remain serviceable to those ages are guys with crazy good wheels that don't go away like Cullen. I wouldn't put Beagle in that category.

But really...i think you just have to ask the question: What can Beagle do that Sutter can't? And i can't find an answer. What's he for? Because they're similar players. Sutter is just like a supercharged 4th liner, in essence...who can score like a quality 3rd liner. But Sutter's best and most valuable quality is that he's unusually non-sensitive to quality of linemates, quality of zone starts, quality of matchups. ie. He's going to produce about the same no matter what sort of crap minutes you throw at him, and unlikely to become more productive with prime minutes. There's value in that...but not if you refuse to exploit that oddity in his player profile.

Why do we need another, lesser version of Sutter? Who is going to play with the skilled young forwards? Not just this year...but apparently now, 3-4 years from now?

 

[Motte and Bailey]

I don’t think he realistically has that ceiling. Lindholm was putting up 30 pts on a good Ducks team in his D+2 while Juolevi looked terrible in camp and preseason in his D+2.

You don’t have to follow players trajectory 1000% to end up like him

Yeah stylistically he is a Lindholm type player and he carried his team as a rookie in a pretty good men’s leak in Finland in the playoffs that’s pretty exciting for a what 19 or 20 year old. Jullie was one of the youngest in his draft if I recall correctly.

I still think he could be even better than Hampus Lindholm in fact jullie is a big game player which means in the playoffs will step it up I don’t know Hampus can say the same.

 

[F A N]

He’s a 4th line player now he doesn’t have much leeway before not being an NHL player so there can’t be any real falloff

I think Beagle established himself as a high end 4th line player after the 2014-2015 season. He was signed to a 3 year $5.25M extension suggesting the Capitals liked him and had faith in him as a player. 3 years later, he has proven to be a great signing for Washington. There is no doubt that Jay Beagle in his prime was a guy any team would want in the lineup.

The problem is that Beagle exiting his prime, has a 4 year contract, and is paid 3rd line money. The falloff is that of 4th line C who has gotten too slow with age.

 

[CanaFan]

You don’t have to follow players trajectory 1000% to end up like him

Yeah stylistically he is a Lindholm type player and he carried his team as a rookie in a pretty good men’s leak in Finland in the playoffs that’s pretty exciting for a what 19 or 20 year old. Jullie was one of the youngest in his draft if I recall correctly.

I still think he could be even better than Hampus Lindholm in fact jullie is a big game player which means in the playoffs will step it up I don’t know Hampus can say the same.

I think if you want to suggest a player is going to equal or surpass a high end NHLer it is important that they do progress on a similar track. Otherwise what are you basing this on, other than Canuck-tinted glasses and wild hopes? It becomes as random as saying I think Jake Virtanen will be as good as Rick Nash some day. Sure he’s not following the same path as Nash, but I don’t think he needs to in order to be as good. That’s why people can get legitimately excited about Elias Pettersson, because he’s tracking like someone to get excited about. Not just because he’s a Canuck and we want to believe in him.

 

[F A N]

But really...i think you just have to ask the question: What can Beagle do that Sutter can't? And i can't find an answer. What's he for? Because they're similar players. Sutter is just like a supercharged 4th liner, in essence...who can score like a quality 3rd liner. But Sutter's best and most valuable quality is that he's unusually non-sensitive to quality of linemates, quality of zone starts, quality of matchups. ie. He's going to produce about the same no matter what sort of crap minutes you throw at him, and unlikely to become more productive with prime minutes. There's value in that...but not if you refuse to exploit that oddity in his player profile.

Why do we need another, lesser version of Sutter? Who is going to play with the skilled young forwards? Not just this year...but apparently now, 3-4 years from now?

I agree with your points generally, but I don't think Sutter and Beagle are similar players. They are completely different. What the Beagle signing does do is shore up the middle and give the team depth.

Like I said, if this means (like Benning said) that our skilled prospects would be placed in an offensive role then I am all for it. Of course, maybe it means that Sutter would have more offensive opportunities. The way Green used Sutter was Malhotra like.

Like most here, like the player, don't like the money and term.

 

[geebaan]

Well we cannot quantify things like love and faith so how could you say it's valuable with certainty huh? Hate to live your life.

Dude is literally questioning if something is quantifiable and you bring up a red herring and hurl insults. Get a stronger argument.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Well we cannot quantify things like love and faith so how could you say it's valuable with certainty huh? Hate to live your life.

So what you're saying is that a GM placing a subjective value on the veteran impact on prospects is the same as you or I placing a subjective valuation on concepts like love and faith? Have I _interpreted_ you correctly?

 

[F A N]

So what you're saying is that a GM placing a subjective value on the veteran impact on prospects is the same as you or I placing a subjective valuation on concepts like love and faith? Have I _interpreted_ you correctly?

Nope. Just that there are many things in life that you can't put into some mathematical equation or something that reflect your own narrow minded thinking.

 

[I in the Eye]

Dude is literally questioning if something is quantifiable and you bring up a red herring and hurl insults. Get a stronger argument.

Red herrings and insults are necessary, because faith is measured by obedience. Those that Believe must yield to the explicit orders and directions of The Regime. Players like this are valuable to a young team because Archbishop Benning said so. The Believers have to take this wisdom, and run with it, defend it as best they can.

I take what The Regime says with a big grain of salt. They don't know what it takes to win... They don't have a formula, all they've done is lose... one mistake after another, leading to a foreseen result by many of those with no faith. Anyone with no faith since the beginning, so far, has not had to Eat Crow as penance. They said it wouldn't work, they don't know what they're doing... and it hasn't worked. The Believers first said now is the time we live in Eden. Benning, himself, said so. But, Gillis ate the apple given from the talking snake. Damn you, Gillis. Every year under The Regime, the Believers preached and forecasted steady improvement (often 20 or so points more than actual results), until this point in time. It's clear to everyone now, the Canucks suck. So now, they need more time. Another 3 years, they say until we live in Eden. More sacrifice... more money... more patience... more faith... more 4th line Culture Carriers...

As hockey fans, many can see what needs to be done... what has worked for others in a similar situation to the Canucks (the last four years, and now, into the years to come). Regardless of what they call themselves, this team needs to act like a rebuilding team.

A strategy-focused organization can measure all kinds of critical success factors (www.amazon.ca/Strategy-Focused-Organization-Scorecard-Companies-Environment/dp/1578512506 ) but I seriously doubt they do something like this to come to their conclusions. They are snake oil salesmen. Those with faith eat it up, without questioning. Benning said that players like this are valuable to a young team, so it is. So valuable, that two 4th liners are worth $12 mil each to a bottom feeding team - buyout proof, 15 team NTC first year. Holy shit, that must be real important to winning, their calculations and strategy-focused organization outputting a chart way off the page top right. Whomever the genius is in The Regime that is calculating this data and coming up with this glorious strategy, is giving the Canucks a very real competitive disadvantage. In the name of Benning, Linden, and the mysterious Weisbrod Ghost; Amen.

 

[timw33]

On another note I think we should target Voynov this summer of free agency if we can get him on a good value contract.

How sick would this defense look?

Hughes - Tanev
Elder - Voynov
Juolevi- Stecher
Hutton - Gudbranson

We sign Voynov and I'm legitimately boycotting this team. Read the testimony and police report–it's horrific. He's learned nothing from it.

Not at all it’s one of those good problems of having so many good defenders

This one is going in the HfCanucks Hall of Fame for future generations learning about the Dark Years.

 

[MS]

The whole mentor and culture carrier thing is a complete sham. We just end up with a bunch of mediocre veterans on lifestyle contracts with no accountability enjoying their fat salaries in Vancouver. There's no winning culture being established by the likes of Del Zotto, Sutter, Edler, et. al.

The two new mentors will fit in right alongside the current group of fat-cat vets riding sweet contracts toward retirement with no risk of losing their jobs regardless of, at best, mediocre on-ice performance.

NJ and Colorado turned things around last year by finally breaking this cycle of crap veterans.

It's just total garbage. And this bizarre state of affairs where the organization endlessly brags about their prospect pool but are terrified to actually play any of them is a complete joke.

 

[bossram]

Too many bodies, not enough roster spots.

Baertschi Horvat Boeser
Eriksson Sutter Pettersson
Granlund Gagner Virtanen
Roussel Beagle Schaller

The following players will be on the outside looking in.

Gaudette
Gaunce
Leipsic
Goldobin
Dahlen

I thought we were going to see a youth movement this year? F**k this s*it

Yah. Bringing in "gritty vets" to "create competition" and "carry culture" is only crowding out the kids.

We're in for a long season of looking at a dog's breakfast of a lineup. Thank god the Sedins no longer have to endure this.

At least we'll get to see Boeser and Petterson together on the PP (I hope).

 

[Bleach Clean]

Nope. Just that there are many things in life that you can't put into some mathematical equation or something that reflect your own narrow minded thinking.

Ah, good. I would have had a field day if you had made such a comparison.

I think it's a very fair question to Canadian Canuck, or anyone else making that claim with certainty. How, if at all, do veterans impact prospects. Is it valuable? If so, how?

When you propose to take it on faith, or not question that understanding, what you are actually doing is promoting narrow-mindedness. Not open mindedness. You are advocating that people adopt an understanding without reason. And reason, objectivity and non-biased views are the keys to maintaining an open mind. I'm sure you knew that, though.

 

[bossram]

I agree with your points generally, but I don't think Sutter and Beagle are similar players. They are completely different. What the Beagle signing does do is shore up the middle and give the team depth.

Like I said, if this means (like Benning said) that our skilled prospects would be placed in an offensive role then I am all for it. Of course, maybe it means that Sutter would have more offensive opportunities. The way Green used Sutter was Malhotra like.

Like most here, like the player, don't like the money and term.

They are similar. Sutter is just the better version. They're both guys who are adequate in largely defensive roles, and who you'd want to keep as far from offensive situations and offensive players as possible. Beagle is just doubling up. And on a bad contract too boot.

IMO Green's "Malhotra-like" deployment of Sutter is optimal way to use him. He's never been an offensive player. Like you said, he's unique in that he produces the same amount regardless of teammates. He's exactly the opposite of the guy you'd want to move up the lineup. Signing another is massive overkill, crowds out the kids, and really guarantees they're anchored to guys who lack offensive talent to make them better.

What we should be looking for are more Vaneks. Cheap, one-year guys we can pair with and help the younger guys (like the Boeser-Vanek combo) and then flip at the deadline.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

NJ and Colorado turned things around last year by finally breaking this cycle of crap veterans.

It's just total garbage. And this bizarre state of affairs where the organization endlessly brags about their prospect pool but are terrified to actually play any of them is a complete joke.

They still haven’t proven that is sustainable. It’s easy for team full of young players with zero and I mean absolutely zero expectations to go out there and perform when the pressure is on it’s a whole different ballgame let’s see how they play it in the next few years because that will tell the real story . Right now it’s too early to say that they did the right thing or not or veterans are useless and mentor ship is useless.

 

[Motte and Bailey]

We sign Voynov and I'm legitimately boycotting this team. Read the testimony and police report–it's horrific. He's learned nothing from it.



This one is going in the HfCanucks Hall of Fame for future generations learning about the Dark Years.

I don’t know what that last part means but I remember reading the police report when it came out and I remember it being really bad but I also read the new statement from the wife herself that made the whole thing seem not as bad after all so maybe we should just giving him the benefit of the doubt here? He did not assault You or me or anyone of us, the person who he did assault has forgiven and moved on and I think that counts for something.